Active Military, a 4473, and Walmart

vranasaurus · August 3, 2009, 08:09 PM

I am active duty army and just recently moved to Mississippi and want to buy this Marlin model 60 at the local walmart.

The guy behind the counter says that he can't sell it to me unless the address I put on the 4473 matches my ID. I never had a problem in KY with my ID address not matching the 4473. I just gave them a copy of my orders.

I know my state of residence for the purpose of the GCA is the state I am stationed in. So if I put my dad's address back in Iowa, to match my ID, I would essentially be lying on the 4473.

The guy at the counter said I could talk to the manager but if it is some Walmart policy it probably wouldn't be worth my time.

Anyone have any thoughts?

I've been to a couple of local shops and they all want to tell me why I shouldn't buy the gun I want. This really turns me off to shopping in their establishments.

And can we please avoid turning this into a walmart bashing thread.

THEZACHARIAS · August 3, 2009, 08:18 PM

Its just store policy. Last I heard, Walmarts been trying to inch out of the firearms business for a while now, so im not too suprised. Other stores do it too to a greater or lesser extent.

MLeake · August 3, 2009, 08:22 PM

... but the way it works in NC is that I would have to go to my base Provost Marshal to get a form that says I am stationed at the base; I'd take that form, and a copy of my orders, to the local sheriff's department and get a NC handgun purchase permit (not sure if they have the same process for long guns, only checked on handguns).

I would then take the permit, the form, my orders, and military ID to the gun shop.

As a practical matter, I just drive back to GA and buy from the dealer near my home. Less paperwork, less hassle (since I go back periodically anyhow). So, I haven't bought any weapons in NC, since finding out what I'd have to do in order to buy one.

Last time I bought a weapon from an FFL outside my home state, it was over ten years ago, in Washington. I only had to show my ID there; the dealer took my word that I was stationed at the local base. Not sure if that was in compliance with regs on his part, but that particular transaction went just that easily.

JohnRaven · August 3, 2009, 08:43 PM

That rule applies to A LOT of stores...

IE, Dunham's Sports in MN.

If your ID doesn't match the address you wrote down, you ain't buying a gun that day...

NavyLT · August 4, 2009, 09:34 AM

It is just WalMart store policy. Unfortunately there is no law that says that they MUST sell to an eligible person. May I ask why you showed any ID other than your Military ID card and orders? That is what the BATFE requires us to show to prove residency.

From pages 135-136 (paper page #'s) of theFederal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide published by the BATFE:
http://www.atf.gov/pub/fire-explo_pu...004/p53004.pdf

ATF Rul. 2001-5
...
Held further, a purchaser who is a
member of the Armed Forces on active
duty is a resident of the State in
which his or her permanent duty station
is located, and may satisfy the
identification document requirement
by presenting his or her military identification
card along with official orders
showing that his or her permanent
duty station is located within the State
where the licensed premises are located.

ATF Ruling 79-7, ATFQB 79-1, 26, is
hereby superseded.

Date signed: December 31, 2001

Editor’s Note:
“Identification document” currently
is defined in 18 U.S.C.
1028(d)(3).

vranasaurus · August 4, 2009, 09:52 AM

Because before I started filling out the paper work the walmart employee said the address on the ID must match the 4473.

NavyLT · August 4, 2009, 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vranasaurus

Because before I started filling out the paper work the walmart employee said the address on the ID must match the 4473.

Yes, I assumed Wal Mart was probably being a pain in the gluteous maximus and was requiring you to produce a state ID card with the same address that you listed on the 4473, even though not required by BATFE.

BTW, I just bought a Ruger 10/22 standard carbine model. I put a KIDD two stage match trigger on it. OMG! The trigger is smooth as melted butter. It has a 24 oz pull through the first stage, and a barely noticeable stop for the second stage which pulls at only 8 oz more. It is literally a tack driver at 50 yards. I had just finished zeroing the scope and decided to take a shot at one of the thumb tacks holding the target up. Hit it the first shot!

vranasaurus · August 4, 2009, 10:09 AM

I understand Walmarts policy from a management and training perspective. It is much easier to train employees on easy to understand black and white policies than it is to train them on the nuances of the GCA.

Nice 10/22. The 10/22 is my second choice.

langenc · August 4, 2009, 02:13 PM

Kinda like permanant RVers. They have a drivers license but how much are the in that state?? Also I noticed that a PO Box is NOT acceptable on a 4473.

pendennis · August 4, 2009, 05:11 PM

While military people have orders to a particular location, they also have a home of record, which is usually where they enlisted.

If the military member has a Iowa driver's license and he enlisted there, it doesn't matter where the orders send him.

JagFarlane · August 4, 2009, 07:14 PM

Quote:

It is just WalMart store policy. Unfortunately there is no law that says that they MUST sell to an eligible person. May I ask why you showed any ID other than your Military ID card and orders? That is what the BATFE requires us to show to prove residency.

Some stores are finicky. Down here in VA...you only need Military ID and orders. The only store I've found here in Hampton Roads that follows that is Bobs Gun Shop. Otherwise, Dicks, Bass Pro, and Gander Mountain [Walmart doesn't sell firearms in Hampton Roads period] all require other things, a lease/bill/bank statement with local address, drivers license, orders stamped original, etc. Store policies that come from up high for nationwide purposes.

Quote:

While military people have orders to a particular location, they also have a home of record, which is usually where they enlisted.

If the military member has a Iowa driver's license and he enlisted there, it doesn't matter where the orders send him.

Just to elaborate. While a person is serving in the military, if they are sent to a state other than their home state, with permanent orders, they are considered a resident of said state for all purposes. They are hence essentially dual citizens, of their home state, and the state they have been sent to. Certain things don't apply, like you're only allowed to vote for your home state, etc, you are allowed to purchase firearms while considered a resident of the state you are stationed in. This is a typical law in all 50 states.

So to follow your example, if a person has Iowa as their home of record, and are then sent to say Virginia, they are then considered residents of both Iowa and Virginia for most purposes, the one being applicable here, purchasing a firearm.

vranasaurus · August 4, 2009, 08:07 PM

For the purpose of the GCA military members are only considered residents of the state they are stationed in.

Home of record is irrelevant when it comes to the GCA. Now state of residence for the purposes of the GCA is really only relevant for the purpose of FTF transfers and handgun purchases.

**Tom Servo** · August 4, 2009, 08:27 PM

Orders should be fine for confirming address. Just underneath where you sign, there's a field for the FFL to list your ID. The next line down gives the FFL a blank to list a document with your current address, should they not match.

"Military orders" qualifies as such a document.

The only reasons an FFL would deny it would be because of a rigid, terrified-of-lawsuit-and-don't-really-want-to-sell-guns-anyway policy (as with Wal Mart), or if the FFL just doesn't know.

NavyLT · August 4, 2009, 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vranasaurus

For the purpose of the GCA military members are only considered residents of the state they are stationed in.

OMG! Finally someone else that actually understands this concept! -claps hands-

Residency for GCA purposes involves two things that must be met together - PRESENCE in a state with the INTENTION of making that state a home. Most military members are not PRESENT in their home of record state with INTENT to make that state a home anytime in the near future and, therefore, buying handguns and private party sales are illegal in the home of record state, even though may have a driver's license from there. Unless, of course, that is also where they are permanently ordered to.

Composer_1777 · August 4, 2009, 08:32 PM

I'm getting confused, so to be clear - By law or at most gunshops you put down the address on your military ID and you need only show them your military ID? Your home state ID is not relevant when buying a gun on active duty?

NavyLT · August 4, 2009, 08:46 PM

A military ID does not list an address or a state of residency. All the ID that is required, by law, is a Military ID and a copy of the orders that will define where the member is ordered to and, therefore, establish their state of residency. With an active duty military member, the FFL is not required, by law, to verify the actual address of the military member, only the state of residence. There is no residence address listed on orders either.

Composer_1777 · August 4, 2009, 08:48 PM

OK, cause i am active duty in 20 days and am unsure about how things will work

NavyLT · August 4, 2009, 08:52 PM

In addition, if you meet all other requirements such as age, etc, you should be able to go to the proper authority in a state and apply for a resident concealed weapons license with your Military ID and orders to that state as well.

MLeake · August 4, 2009, 09:12 PM

and I have no trouble buying in my home state while on extended TDY in another state. I buy frequently when I go home.

**44 AMP** · August 6, 2009, 09:02 PM

Don't buy your gear from WalMart! I know you are in the military, and every dollar is hard earned, but, try going to a gunshop, or sporting goods store, or even any other store that sells guns, and shop there.

You may wind up spending a few extra dollars for a particular gun, but it is money well spent, because it helps keep the little shops in business.

Too many people, in their obsessive desire to save $5, or 10 or 20 bucks will buy guns from Wal mart, and congratulate themselves on how much they saved, and what a great deal they got, then blow the money they "saved" on a pizza. Or something else even less permanent!

When the little dealers go under, because everyone buys from Walmart, and then Walmart decides to stop selling guns/ammo, what do you/we do then?

Also, consider that buying from a local gunshop means that your money stays in the local economy, and doesn't go to China to buy more cheap stuff to stock walmart shelves.

I shop at WalMart for lots of things, but guns aren't one of them. ANd lately, neither has ammo been one either. Because they don't have any! I was in my local store Tuesday, and they had one (1) box of .44 mag for pistol ammo. Period. Nothing else on the shelves. Five boxes of rifle ammo, in three different calibers. But they did have lots of shotgun shells, still.

vranasaurus · August 6, 2009, 10:42 PM

I've been in two local shops and it wasn't cost that caused me to dislike shopping there.

I went in to both and asked if they had a Marlin model 60 and both shops told me those were junk and I should buy x(one wanted to sell me a ruger 10/22 and the other a savage bolt gun).

Neither one said we don't have any in stock but I can give you a price and we can order it for you. I even asked about them ordering and their response was we don't do that. So my only option was to buy what they wanted to sell me.

I don't know if it was just that the salesman didn't want to do any extra work but it didn't seem right.

I prefer local shops to walmart but the staff and service at the local shops here has not left a good first impression.

I get what you're saying and I am with you but when Walmart has what I want and the others don't (and don't want to get it) I don't have many options. It appears walmart doesn't want to sell me one either.

I may go give one of the shops another try and see if I can get them to sell me what I want.

NavyLT · August 7, 2009, 12:04 AM

vranasaurus,

Don't forget to look in pawn shops and military surplus stores, vranasaurus. Also sporting goods stores like Acadamy Sports, Sportsmens Warehouse, Cabellas, Bass Pro, Big 5 Sporting Goods. Also, you can buy long guns from out of state FFLs, usually.

THEZACHARIAS · August 7, 2009, 07:17 PM

I gotta agree on the rotten local stores. Everywhere base I visit, the stores closest to the gate have the worst customer service. Its like they know that private/airman/sailor Snuffy will show up looking for his first real firearm not caring who he buys it from, and those purchases will support them regardless of whether anyone comes back. Then, their ability to show a profit regardless of lousy service pushes the other good stores out of business.

Its a rotten, but sadly self-perpetuating cycle. Id rather buy from Walmart or the Bx than from people who have and give no respect to their customers.

raimius · August 9, 2009, 12:37 AM

"people who have and give no respect to their customers"
Sometimes that would be the big chain stores, as well.

I had one sporting goods employee lecture, then threaten to "call our CO" for trying to buy .45ACP, when one person in our group (not the buyer) was only 20. "Federal crime," "Article 15" and some others were thrown out for good measure. Obviously, the guy didn't quite grasp the details of the GCA.

...this was after we tried to explain that we were not breaking the law...

August 3, 2009, 08:09 PM	#1
vranasaurus Senior Member Join Date: November 16, 2008 Posts: 1,184	Active Military, a 4473, and Walmart I am active duty army and just recently moved to Mississippi and want to buy this Marlin model 60 at the local walmart. The guy behind the counter says that he can't sell it to me unless the address I put on the 4473 matches my ID. I never had a problem in KY with my ID address not matching the 4473. I just gave them a copy of my orders. I know my state of residence for the purpose of the GCA is the state I am stationed in. So if I put my dad's address back in Iowa, to match my ID, I would essentially be lying on the 4473. The guy at the counter said I could talk to the manager but if it is some Walmart policy it probably wouldn't be worth my time. Anyone have any thoughts? I've been to a couple of local shops and they all want to tell me why I shouldn't buy the gun I want. This really turns me off to shopping in their establishments. And can we please avoid turning this into a walmart bashing thread.

August 3, 2009, 08:22 PM	#3
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	Not sure about MS... ... but the way it works in NC is that I would have to go to my base Provost Marshal to get a form that says I am stationed at the base; I'd take that form, and a copy of my orders, to the local sheriff's department and get a NC handgun purchase permit (not sure if they have the same process for long guns, only checked on handguns). I would then take the permit, the form, my orders, and military ID to the gun shop. As a practical matter, I just drive back to GA and buy from the dealer near my home. Less paperwork, less hassle (since I go back periodically anyhow). So, I haven't bought any weapons in NC, since finding out what I'd have to do in order to buy one. Last time I bought a weapon from an FFL outside my home state, it was over ten years ago, in Washington. I only had to show my ID there; the dealer took my word that I was stationed at the local base. Not sure if that was in compliance with regs on his part, but that particular transaction went just that easily.

August 4, 2009, 08:27 PM	#13
Tom Servo Staff Join Date: September 27, 2008 Location: Foothills of the Appalachians Posts: 13,059	Orders should be fine for confirming address. Just underneath where you sign, there's a field for the FFL to list your ID. The next line down gives the FFL a blank to list a document with your current address, should they not match. "Military orders" qualifies as such a document. The only reasons an FFL would deny it would be because of a rigid, terrified-of-lawsuit-and-don't-really-want-to-sell-guns-anyway policy (as with Wal Mart), or if the FFL just doesn't know. __________________ Sometimes it’s nice not to destroy the world for a change. --Randall Munroe

August 4, 2009, 09:12 PM	#19
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	I'm active duty military and I have no trouble buying in my home state while on extended TDY in another state. I buy frequently when I go home.

August 6, 2009, 09:02 PM	#20
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,867	At the risk of starting a Walmart bash... Don't buy your gear from WalMart! I know you are in the military, and every dollar is hard earned, but, try going to a gunshop, or sporting goods store, or even any other store that sells guns, and shop there. You may wind up spending a few extra dollars for a particular gun, but it is money well spent, because it helps keep the little shops in business. Too many people, in their obsessive desire to save $5, or 10 or 20 bucks will buy guns from Wal mart, and congratulate themselves on how much they saved, and what a great deal they got, then blow the money they "saved" on a pizza. Or something else even less permanent! When the little dealers go under, because everyone buys from Walmart, and then Walmart decides to stop selling guns/ammo, what do you/we do then? Also, consider that buying from a local gunshop means that your money stays in the local economy, and doesn't go to China to buy more cheap stuff to stock walmart shelves. I shop at WalMart for lots of things, but guns aren't one of them. ANd lately, neither has ammo been one either. Because they don't have any! I was in my local store Tuesday, and they had one (1) box of .44 mag for pistol ammo. Period. Nothing else on the shelves. Five boxes of rifle ammo, in three different calibers. But they did have lots of shotgun shells, still. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

August 3, 2009, 08:18 PM	#2
THEZACHARIAS Senior Member Join Date: January 26, 2009 Location: Louisiana Posts: 537	Its just store policy. Last I heard, Walmarts been trying to inch out of the firearms business for a while now, so im not too suprised. Other stores do it too to a greater or lesser extent.

August 3, 2009, 08:43 PM	#4
JohnRaven Senior Member Join Date: October 28, 2008 Location: The Republic Posts: 131	That rule applies to A LOT of stores... IE, Dunham's Sports in MN. If your ID doesn't match the address you wrote down, you ain't buying a gun that day...

August 4, 2009, 09:34 AM	#5
NavyLT Junior member Join Date: January 25, 2006 Location: Oak Harbor, WA Posts: 1,719	It is just WalMart store policy. Unfortunately there is no law that says that they MUST sell to an eligible person. May I ask why you showed any ID other than your Military ID card and orders? That is what the BATFE requires us to show to prove residency. From pages 135-136 (paper page #'s) of theFederal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide published by the BATFE: http://www.atf.gov/pub/fire-explo_pu...004/p53004.pdf ATF Rul. 2001-5 ... Held further, a purchaser who is a member of the Armed Forces on active duty is a resident of the State in which his or her permanent duty station is located, and may satisfy the identification document requirement by presenting his or her military identification card along with official orders showing that his or her permanent duty station is located within the State where the licensed premises are located. ATF Ruling 79-7, ATFQB 79-1, 26, is hereby superseded. Date signed: December 31, 2001 Editor’s Note: “Identification document” currently is defined in 18 U.S.C. 1028(d)(3).

August 4, 2009, 09:52 AM	#6
vranasaurus Senior Member Join Date: November 16, 2008 Posts: 1,184	Because before I started filling out the paper work the walmart employee said the address on the ID must match the 4473.

August 4, 2009, 10:09 AM	#8
vranasaurus Senior Member Join Date: November 16, 2008 Posts: 1,184	I understand Walmarts policy from a management and training perspective. It is much easier to train employees on easy to understand black and white policies than it is to train them on the nuances of the GCA. Nice 10/22. The 10/22 is my second choice.

August 4, 2009, 02:13 PM	#9
langenc Senior Member Join Date: August 19, 2007 Location: Montmorency Co, MI Posts: 1,551	Kinda like permanant RVers. They have a drivers license but how much are the in that state?? Also I noticed that a PO Box is NOT acceptable on a 4473.

August 4, 2009, 05:11 PM	#10
pendennis Junior member Join Date: March 18, 2009 Posts: 572	While military people have orders to a particular location, they also have a home of record, which is usually where they enlisted. If the military member has a Iowa driver's license and he enlisted there, it doesn't matter where the orders send him.

August 4, 2009, 08:07 PM	#12
vranasaurus Senior Member Join Date: November 16, 2008 Posts: 1,184	For the purpose of the GCA military members are only considered residents of the state they are stationed in. Home of record is irrelevant when it comes to the GCA. Now state of residence for the purposes of the GCA is really only relevant for the purpose of FTF transfers and handgun purchases.

August 4, 2009, 08:32 PM	#15
Composer_1777 Junior member Join Date: June 30, 2009 Location: New Orleans, La Posts: 242	I'm getting confused, so to be clear - By law or at most gunshops you put down the address on your military ID and you need only show them your military ID? Your home state ID is not relevant when buying a gun on active duty?

August 4, 2009, 08:46 PM	#16
NavyLT Junior member Join Date: January 25, 2006 Location: Oak Harbor, WA Posts: 1,719	A military ID does not list an address or a state of residency. All the ID that is required, by law, is a Military ID and a copy of the orders that will define where the member is ordered to and, therefore, establish their state of residency. With an active duty military member, the FFL is not required, by law, to verify the actual address of the military member, only the state of residence. There is no residence address listed on orders either.

August 4, 2009, 08:48 PM	#17
Composer_1777 Junior member Join Date: June 30, 2009 Location: New Orleans, La Posts: 242	OK, cause i am active duty in 20 days and am unsure about how things will work

August 4, 2009, 08:52 PM	#18
NavyLT Junior member Join Date: January 25, 2006 Location: Oak Harbor, WA Posts: 1,719	In addition, if you meet all other requirements such as age, etc, you should be able to go to the proper authority in a state and apply for a resident concealed weapons license with your Military ID and orders to that state as well.

August 6, 2009, 10:42 PM	#21
vranasaurus Senior Member Join Date: November 16, 2008 Posts: 1,184	I've been in two local shops and it wasn't cost that caused me to dislike shopping there. I went in to both and asked if they had a Marlin model 60 and both shops told me those were junk and I should buy x(one wanted to sell me a ruger 10/22 and the other a savage bolt gun). Neither one said we don't have any in stock but I can give you a price and we can order it for you. I even asked about them ordering and their response was we don't do that. So my only option was to buy what they wanted to sell me. I don't know if it was just that the salesman didn't want to do any extra work but it didn't seem right. I prefer local shops to walmart but the staff and service at the local shops here has not left a good first impression. I get what you're saying and I am with you but when Walmart has what I want and the others don't (and don't want to get it) I don't have many options. It appears walmart doesn't want to sell me one either. I may go give one of the shops another try and see if I can get them to sell me what I want.

August 7, 2009, 12:04 AM	#22
NavyLT Junior member Join Date: January 25, 2006 Location: Oak Harbor, WA Posts: 1,719	vranasaurus, Don't forget to look in pawn shops and military surplus stores, vranasaurus. Also sporting goods stores like Acadamy Sports, Sportsmens Warehouse, Cabellas, Bass Pro, Big 5 Sporting Goods. Also, you can buy long guns from out of state FFLs, usually.

August 7, 2009, 07:17 PM	#23
THEZACHARIAS Senior Member Join Date: January 26, 2009 Location: Louisiana Posts: 537	I gotta agree on the rotten local stores. Everywhere base I visit, the stores closest to the gate have the worst customer service. Its like they know that private/airman/sailor Snuffy will show up looking for his first real firearm not caring who he buys it from, and those purchases will support them regardless of whether anyone comes back. Then, their ability to show a profit regardless of lousy service pushes the other good stores out of business. Its a rotten, but sadly self-perpetuating cycle. Id rather buy from Walmart or the Bx than from people who have and give no respect to their customers.

August 9, 2009, 12:37 AM	#24
raimius Senior Member Join Date: January 27, 2008 Posts: 2,199	"people who have and give no respect to their customers" Sometimes that would be the big chain stores, as well. I had one sporting goods employee lecture, then threaten to "call our CO" for trying to buy .45ACP, when one person in our group (not the buyer) was only 20. "Federal crime," "Article 15" and some others were thrown out for good measure. Obviously, the guy didn't quite grasp the details of the GCA. ...this was after we tried to explain that we were not breaking the law...