CC, how many spare magazines do you carry?

[manta49]

Almost any jam can be cleared quickly without giving up a mag by dumping it on the ground. Also, comparing LE scenarios where cops intentionally go into harms way is sooooo different than SD situations....but that just my 29 years of LE experience, what do I know.

If you need to use your firearm for self defense, it doesn't matter if you are a civilian or a police officer. And i do not know any police officers in this part of the UK that don't carry extra mags on or off duty. Maybe its different in America.

[Moomooboo]

Originally Posted by Glenn E. Meyer

The issue is when someone says they don't carry a spare because of the average gun fight is X rounds or they don't go into bad areas.

Both of those have little logic behind them when you look at reasonable risk management for the 'what can go wrong with a significant but perhaps small probabllity).

Then folks start to argue. The real answer is that carry extra is a modest pain but not that much. Do what you want as you take the risk.

Can you expand on your little logic argument? I feel like using statistics is a logical way. I mean lets say in 100 years no one has needed more than the ammo in their gun, is it feasible to say that we will be mostly fine? Id think so.

The almost nonexistent probabilitythat one will encounter SD situation compounded by a jam that requires another mag is so miniscule yet it is one of the biggest factors we worry about.

Im not saying one should not carry as it is ones choice, but i just want to see why you think there is no logic? Anything can happen, but my car isnt one which can transform into a helicopter in the event of a flood either which is a significant but small probability.

[colbad]

Manta49--the reasons cops carry extra guns and ammo is because they actively engage in seeking out gunfire and bad guys on or off duty. Also, those you arrest tend to remember you which is a different kind of SD situation unique to cops requiring a heightened level of preparedness. Most bad guys do not actively seek out normal civilians to kill unlike the risk of being a cop.

If you are in the gun fighting business you better come prepared with as much as you can bring for ammo, guns etc. If you are a civilian concerned only with SD you get the option to run away. As such, comparing the need of civilian SD situations and the need for extra magazines stuffed in every orifice because cops do, is no comparison at all.

As I said before, there is no arguing with the "just in case" response.

[OldMarksman]

Posted by Moomooboo:

The almost nonexistent probabilitythat one will encounter SD situation compounded by a jam that requires another mag is so miniscule yet it is one of the biggest factors we worry about.

That is not the way people who understand the basic tenets of risk management look at it.

The probability that one will be faced by a violent critical actor on any particular day is far less than remote. The probability that that risk will ever materialize is much higher, but still rather low.

Because the potential consequences are so severe, and because so little is involved in mitigating the risk, many of us do mitigate it. The most effective way to do that, for people who are trained and proficient in its use, is to carry a firearm. Many of us do that.

The next issue entails the risk that said firearm may fail in the unlikely event that it is needed. One properly looks at the marginal probability, and not the cumulative probability.

The shooting of guns in nonviolent situations demonstrates that that likelihood is higher than most of us would like.

That risk, too, requires little to mitigate. One effective way to do that, again for people who are trained and proficient, is to carry a spare magazine. Many trained and knowledgeable people do that.

Another way to mitigate that risk is to carry a back-up gun. That is likely more effective, and it provides several additional advantages. Some people do that.

I do not know of many knowledgeable, trained people who understand much at all about risk management who will discount that risk heavily, if they have already decided to carry a gun.

[colbad]

OldMarksman--by your logic all should be carying more than one gun "just in case" one breaks since an extra mag alone would not address that risk

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Good post OldM.

I would like to add about jams that it is very common to get a jam that necessitates ripping out a mag. It is commonly taught for many guns - 1911s for example. Lock back the slide, rip out the mag.

In advanced classes, instructors like Tom Givens, will set up such just to demonstrate and have you run through it.

About carrying an extra gun - many folks with advanced training do that. Sure, it is a pain - but carrying a gun in the first place is a pain. Careful equipment choice and dress mitigates the pain. Do we always do it - probably not. But it is not uncommon.

[Moomooboo]

Originally Posted by OldMarksman

Posted by Moomooboo:That is not the way people who understand the basic tenets of risk management look at it.

The probability that one will be faced by a violent critical actor on any particular day is far less than remote. The probability that that risk will ever materialize is much higher, but still rather low.

Because the potential consequences are so severe, and because so little is involved in mitigating the risk, many of us do mitigate it. The most effective way to do that, for people who are trained and proficient in its use, is to carry a firearm. Many of us do that.

The next issue entails the risk that said firearm may fail in the unlikely event that it is needed. One properly looks at the marginal probability, and not the cumulative probability.

The shooting of guns in nonviolent situations demonstrates that that likelihood is higher than most of us would like.

That risk, too, requires little to mitigate. One effective way to do that, again for people who are trained and proficient, is to carry a spare magazine. Many trained and knowledgeable people do that.

Another way to mitigate that risk is to carry a back-up gun. That is likely more effective, and it provides several additional advantages. Some people do that.

I do not know of many knowledgeable, trained people who understand much at all about risk management who will discount that risk heavily, if they have already decided to carry a gun.

Ahh. I liked the way you stated it and is reasonable coming from your viewpoint. Ill still stand by not carrying extra mags. Just me though.

[Moomooboo]

Originally Posted by Glenn E. Meyer

Good post OldM.

I would like to add about jams that it is very common to get a jam that necessitates ripping out a mag. It is commonly taught for many guns - 1911s for example. Lock back the slide, rip out the mag.

In advanced classes, instructors like Tom Givens, will set up such just to demonstrate and have you run through it.

About carrying an extra gun - many folks with advanced training do that. Sure, it is a pain - but carrying a gun in the first place is a pain. Careful equipment choice and dress mitigates the pain. Do we always do it - probably not. But it is not uncommon.

Ive shot many guns. The only ones which ftf or jam has been my ruger sr22 and my glock26 had 2 which got stovepipe within 100 rounds and never again. It was probably limp wrist, but ny g19 after couple hundred, g42 and g32 have never jammed.

The g26 was fixed by ejecting that round and chambering another one. Maybe slightly slower than pulling out another gun
But faster than dropping and inserting another magazine. In my opinion, by stating the nagazine should be ripped out and replaced indicates a problem with the magazine itself.

[OldMarksman]

Ive shot many guns. The only ones which ftf or jam...

That had been my experience--until I want to a class to which we had to bring 1.200 rounds.

No, the few failures that I experienced did not cause me to change my ways. What made me start really thinking about it was watching twelve other students clearing jams over the course of two days in another course, and during that course I had enough failures to shake me up quite a bit.

What did? It was the Pincus video that i mentioned above.

By the way, I will not carry a gun until we have put around 450 rounds through it.

[Moomooboo]

Another viewpoint. With all the accidental shootings or negligent discharges in this country each year, we never seem to find any cases of the gun ftf. Of course if it did, it probably wouldnt make news as it wouldnt be a statistic and no one would be interested either. Just something to point out.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Double feeds on a 1911 - common clearing response entails locking the slide and removing the mag. Shoot them enough and you will experience this.

I've had it happen in a match. You learn how to do it quickly.

[AK103K]

The g26 was fixed by ejecting that round and chambering another one. Maybe slightly slower than pulling out another gun
But faster than dropping and inserting another magazine. In my opinion, by stating the nagazine should be ripped out and replaced indicates a problem with the magazine itself.

Not all malfunctions require you to change out the mag. Most things are solved by a TRB. There are some that arent, and require the mag to be removed to solve the problem. A spare mag, and better yet, a second gun, will alleviate that problem.

Magazines are always a possible problem, especially if youre using them in a regular rotation. I use a specific set in practice, just to try and eliminate that issue in the guns I carry. I know a lot of people who only have what came with the gun, and thats all they use. Assuming they practice regularly, and the least bit realistically, those mags will likely get beat up and abused in short order in practice, and the probability goes up, that something can, and will go wrong.

If you shoot a lot, you know that things happen and stoppages occur. Its just inevitable, and the nature of the beast, and thats normally on a range where your not under any real stress. Ramp things up, and things tend come along with it.

Theres never a guarantee the next round will go bang when you expect it too, and thats why you practice immediate action drills, and to the point you dont have to think about it. If you dont, whats your plan? The time to have that worked out, is in regular and repetitive practice, so you dont have to think about doing it when it occurs for real. The last thing you want to have to do (actually, its something you really should never do), is stop and try to "diagnose" the problem during a bad time. You shouldnt have to think about what needs done. If the simple responses dont get it done right then in a second or two, then you need to do something else.

All of the above is just something that goes along with using an auto-loader. Revolvers have their own set of rules, and you practice them too, if you use one. Any of it is simply part of being proficient with what you use.

Id be willing to bet, that everyone here, probably has a spare tire in their car or truck. How often these days, do you have a "road" flat? I havent had one in over 15 years, and I normally drive 25-30000 "road" miles a year. Why carry a spare then? Simple, because when you need it, you need it. Same goes for a magazine for my autos.

[Scorpion8]

One extra mag besides what is in the gun. if you get into a volume firefight it's past time to look for an exit. Even at the end of magazine #1.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Any firefight - if you can get out, do it. I ain't waiting till round 6 if I can make it out the door.

Of course, sometimes you make it out the door into another group of BGs.

[Moomooboo]

Originally Posted by Glenn E. Meyer

Any firefight - if you can get out, do it. I ain't waiting till round 6 if I can make it out the door.

Of course, sometimes you make it out the door into another group of BGs.

A firefight and SD are different situations. We shouldnt be preparing for firefights. Atleast if we are...again you should pack more gear and more weapons.

[raimius]

If the attacker is armed with a firearm, things may quickly become a firefight. Two-way shootings can still be SD.

[TimSr]

I posted 2 examples of where people reloaded and it saved their lives, the fact that they were not civilians is irrelevant.

I could not disagree more.

A civilian in defense fires his weapon with a goal to make the threat go away.

A LEO is on offense and fires his weapon with a goal of preventing the threat from going away, and pursuing the threat if it does.

There are no "always" or "never" scenarios, but overall, a bad guy who has fired on police has a lot more motivation to continue fighting than the guy who wanted you wallet and phone, and can easily run away and get a "do over".

[TimSr]

One can look at how often semi-autos jam; the are thousands of days of training sessions very year, and one can participate in or observe a few. Frankly, my observations have been alarming. Do not look for comprehensive data.

One can look at the best way to address jams very quickly.

One can train to do so.

One can observe how quickly a practiced individual can clear a malfunction without looking at his gun.

And then one can make an informed decision.

or one can carry a revolver with a greater likelihood that all of his measley 5 rounds will fire.

I ws not literally asking for "ALL" of the incidents of reloading in self defense, but with so many telling me that 5 rounds is not enough to repel an attack, I would like to hear from ALL who advise this, of the actual incidents or statistics upon which they base this advise.

[Moomooboo]

Originally Posted by raimius

If the attacker is armed with a firearm, things may quickly become a firefight. Two-way shootings can still be SD.

When people mention firefight, i think of ok corral. When people mention SD, I always think of both people armed, not just one person.

As a CCW or gun owner i think we should stop fantasizing about having shootouts/firefights and think more of self defense.

[OldMarksman]

Posted by TimSr:

....but with so many telling me that 5 rounds is not enough to repel an attack, I would like to hear from ALL who advise this, of the actual incidents or statistics upon which they base this advise.

Same issues: infrequent incidents, no detailed records except in cases of indictments, nor summaries compiled.....

Tom Givens' recent podcast with Mike Seeklander mentioned some data, but the sample size is very small indeed.

Decision-makers and analysts faced with such issues must rely on things other than actual data.

A good example: every passenger seat in every airplane that plies the skies within continents contains a flotation device. Why? Risk analysis based on simulation. There have been far, far too few actual accident and casualty data upon which to base that decision.

Someone I once knew was involved in an analysis of the likelihood that an airplane or ejected fighter pilot would come down in water other than oceans, bays, or gulfs. He most certainly did not assert that he could not do that without actual cases or statistics.

[Moomooboo]

Oldman. You are pretty wise

[Glenn E. Meyer]

A firefight and SD are different situations

Oh, and please give me the Platonic archetype or mathematial proof that can clearly differentiate between the two when shots are starting to be fired.

A LEO is on offense and fires his weapon with a goal of preventing the threat from going away, and pursuing the threat if it does.

And what police manual did you get this gem from?

[Moomooboo]

Originally Posted by Glenn E. Meyer

Oh, and please give me the Platonic archetype or mathematial proof that can clearly differentiate between the two when shots are starting to be fired.



And what police manual did you get this gem from?

If you bothered to read what i wrote, then you would see that i answered your question.

If youre expecting a firefight like police engage in, wear a bulletprood vest and have a radio to call in for backup like they do.

[DA/SA Fan]

I've gone almost 59 years without ever needing a gun. No one I personally know has ever needed a gun. Does that mean I shouldn't carry one? A gun is insurance against what might happen, likely or not. Me, if I'm going to be prepared for a bad day it isn't much more trouble to prepare for a really bad day. When I carry my 10mm in a shoulder rig I have 14+1 in the gun and two 14 round mags on the other side of the rig. When I carry my 9mm Tristar IWB I have 17+1 in the gun and 2 19 round mags on the other side of my belt. Also IWB. Even when I'm just going down to the local convenience store and put my Tomcat in my pocket holster, I have 2 spare 7 rounders in the other pocket. Maybe there's a better chance of getting struck by lightning but there is always a possibility that a terrorist or a nut job could storm in and start killing people at a mall or stadium or train station. In that type of SHTF day My self defense might look a lot more like a LEO job. Most likely will never ever need it but it doesn't hurt one little bit to carry a couple extra mags.

[manta49]

I posted 2 examples of where people reloaded and it saved their lives, the fact that they were not civilians is irrelevant.

I could not disagree more.

If bullets are coming your way, it doesn't matter if you are a civilian or a police officer. If you run out of ammo it doesn't matter if you are a civilian or police officer.