Personal Defence Weapon PDW

don vito · January 23, 2001, 01:39 AM

what do u guys think of the whole idea of PDW for the NATO trops, i think the FN p90 and Five seveN are in the lead whith their 5.7x28mm litlle kevlar riper compared to HK 4.6x30mm pdw, or the Swedish saab bofors CBJ-MS 6.5x25mm/9mm luger,
and what about the whole idea of arming trops with a diferent cartridge, magazine and a whole new weapon although the FNs perfomanse agasinst soft body armor dictates that such weapon should be deployed in a small package but not in a large quantaty

NicMk5 · January 23, 2001, 02:22 AM

The concept is pretty good but the FN and HK rounds are a little on the wimpy side. The FN round(5.7x28) is something like a 30 grain .22 bullet at 2200 feet per second, the 4.6mm HK bullet is smaller and lighter. After the bullet penetrates the kevlar will it have any energy left? I think what it will do is make a very narrow wound channel about like a 22lr.
BTW I do like the layout of the HK, it looks like it would be about as big as a Walker Colt to carry but extend the stock and pistol grip and it could be a 150 or 200 meter weapon.

George Hill · January 23, 2001, 02:41 AM

Moving to Full Auto.
The FN P90 is differnent - but is 2nd place to the HK PDW.
The HK is also smaller and better carried by the intended people. Namely Clerks and Cooks. The P90 is too bulky to be reasonably carried.

Badger Arms · January 23, 2001, 11:15 PM

Why not just issue Sub-Compact Assault Rifles? Would simplify logistics enough and we know that the performance is there. The M-4 with a 10" Barrel or something akin to the HK G-36C seem pretty good. They're only marginally larger and save alot on training, supply, and spares problems you'd encounter with either the P90 or PDW.

don vito · January 24, 2001, 04:23 AM

i agree with u short assault rifles are the answer
the m2 corparation makes ar's with 6 and 4 inch barels maybe too short but guns like hk g53 and micro galil and mikro tabor form imi later i heard was adopted by the cia here in us in 223
the russians have their ak74u us hase the xm117 car15 and the m4 both ar's which i dont see as perfect fighting arms althoug the may look wery good with all the acsessories wich still don't change its mechnical reliability
thanks for your opinion and for the pic
i whould like to say that fn p90 and Five seveN pisrol should be deployed for those special situations

ctdonath · January 24, 2001, 09:19 AM

Consider Cooper's "Thumper" concept, which was designed for such use.

Cooper wanted to design a rifle for soldiers who were not primarily shooters, such as tank crews. The main need is for something compact and decisive to 200 yards. In his book "To Ride, Shoot Straight, and Speak the Truth" (if you haven't read it, do so) he described "Thumper", a semi-auto firing .44 AutoMag rounds, with an 11" barrel, folding stock, iron sights, 20 round magazine, and weigh about 4 pounds. There have been several faltering attempts to actually build it, but apparently nobody has actually followed through on the project (that such a short-barreled rifle would be subject to a $200 transfer tax and tight BATF regulation is likely a discouraging factor).

Thumper vs. FNP90/HKPDW raises the question: which is actually more effective/useful - .44 or .22?

Bart Noir · January 25, 2001, 02:20 PM

OK let's hear from somebody who has actually fired 5.56mm from a 10 or 12 inch barrel. I'm thinkin muzzle blast will be stunning, don't want untrained G.I. next to me be stunned into confusion only half-way through the burst he's firing. Muzzle goes all over then, and it may be "all over" for me. I don't think full caliber in a small package is the answer. Maybe somebody should ask Winchester to develop a .30 Carbine!
Bart Noir
When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns. And there will be a lot of us outlaws.

NicMk5 · January 25, 2001, 08:12 PM

I have seen a car15(approx 10 inch barrel)fire at night and the muzzle flash was incredible. With over 100 M16's and 6 M60 MG's firing the car15 with an 18 inch diameter muzzle flash(it was loud too)drew attention like a magnet. I think the 5.7 Johnson or 7.62x25 might work better in a short barrel. Or a .357 Sig could be used with three different loads, a 180 or 200 grain subsonic load for suppressed use, 125 grain fmj for normal military use, and a discarding sabot with a high velocity AP bullet for use against body armor.

Young Kiwi · January 25, 2001, 09:20 PM

comparing these rounds on paper to older rounds like the .30 M1 Carbine round, you realise how small they really are.

I have always thought that the Carbine round with a different projectile would be spot on in a PDW size gun.
You could even put saboted rounds into it. Comapared to the te 5.7x28 they would be impressive.

George Hill · January 25, 2001, 11:55 PM

What could be better?

January 23, 2001, 02:41 AM	#3
George Hill Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 14, 1998 Location: North Carolina Posts: 11,546	Moving to Full Auto. The FN P90 is differnent - but is 2nd place to the HK PDW. The HK is also smaller and better carried by the intended people. Namely Clerks and Cooks. The P90 is too bulky to be reasonably carried. __________________ MAD OGRE

January 25, 2001, 08:12 PM	#8
NicMk5 Member Join Date: January 2, 2001 Posts: 47	5.56 from short barrels I have seen a car15(approx 10 inch barrel)fire at night and the muzzle flash was incredible. With over 100 M16's and 6 M60 MG's firing the car15 with an 18 inch diameter muzzle flash(it was loud too)drew attention like a magnet. I think the 5.7 Johnson or 7.62x25 might work better in a short barrel. Or a .357 Sig could be used with three different loads, a 180 or 200 grain subsonic load for suppressed use, 125 grain fmj for normal military use, and a discarding sabot with a high velocity AP bullet for use against body armor.

January 23, 2001, 01:39 AM	#1
don vito Member Join Date: January 14, 2001 Posts: 47	what do u guys think of the whole idea of PDW for the NATO trops, i think the FN p90 and Five seveN are in the lead whith their 5.7x28mm litlle kevlar riper compared to HK 4.6x30mm pdw, or the Swedish saab bofors CBJ-MS 6.5x25mm/9mm luger, and what about the whole idea of arming trops with a diferent cartridge, magazine and a whole new weapon although the FNs perfomanse agasinst soft body armor dictates that such weapon should be deployed in a small package but not in a large quantaty

January 23, 2001, 02:22 AM	#2
NicMk5 Member Join Date: January 2, 2001 Posts: 47	The concept is pretty good but the FN and HK rounds are a little on the wimpy side. The FN round(5.7x28) is something like a 30 grain .22 bullet at 2200 feet per second, the 4.6mm HK bullet is smaller and lighter. After the bullet penetrates the kevlar will it have any energy left? I think what it will do is make a very narrow wound channel about like a 22lr. BTW I do like the layout of the HK, it looks like it would be about as big as a Walker Colt to carry but extend the stock and pistol grip and it could be a 150 or 200 meter weapon.

January 23, 2001, 11:15 PM	#4
Badger Arms Senior Member Join Date: July 2, 2000 Location: Harnett County, NC Posts: 1,700	Why not just issue Sub-Compact Assault Rifles? Would simplify logistics enough and we know that the performance is there. The M-4 with a 10" Barrel or something akin to the HK G-36C seem pretty good. They're only marginally larger and save alot on training, supply, and spares problems you'd encounter with either the P90 or PDW.

January 24, 2001, 04:23 AM	#5
don vito Member Join Date: January 14, 2001 Posts: 47	i agree with u short assault rifles are the answer the m2 corparation makes ar's with 6 and 4 inch barels maybe too short but guns like hk g53 and micro galil and mikro tabor form imi later i heard was adopted by the cia here in us in 223 the russians have their ak74u us hase the xm117 car15 and the m4 both ar's which i dont see as perfect fighting arms althoug the may look wery good with all the acsessories wich still don't change its mechnical reliability thanks for your opinion and for the pic i whould like to say that fn p90 and Five seveN pisrol should be deployed for those special situations

January 24, 2001, 09:19 AM	#6
ctdonath Senior Member Join Date: April 11, 1999 Posts: 1,904	Consider Cooper's "Thumper" concept, which was designed for such use. Cooper wanted to design a rifle for soldiers who were not primarily shooters, such as tank crews. The main need is for something compact and decisive to 200 yards. In his book "To Ride, Shoot Straight, and Speak the Truth" (if you haven't read it, do so) he described "Thumper", a semi-auto firing .44 AutoMag rounds, with an 11" barrel, folding stock, iron sights, 20 round magazine, and weigh about 4 pounds. There have been several faltering attempts to actually build it, but apparently nobody has actually followed through on the project (that such a short-barreled rifle would be subject to a $200 transfer tax and tight BATF regulation is likely a discouraging factor). Thumper vs. FNP90/HKPDW raises the question: which is actually more effective/useful - .44 or .22?

January 25, 2001, 02:20 PM	#7
Bart Noir Senior Member Join Date: August 5, 2000 Location: Puget Sound, USA Posts: 2,215	OK let's hear from somebody who has actually fired 5.56mm from a 10 or 12 inch barrel. I'm thinkin muzzle blast will be stunning, don't want untrained G.I. next to me be stunned into confusion only half-way through the burst he's firing. Muzzle goes all over then, and it may be "all over" for me. I don't think full caliber in a small package is the answer. Maybe somebody should ask Winchester to develop a .30 Carbine! Bart Noir When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns. And there will be a lot of us outlaws.

January 25, 2001, 09:20 PM	#9
Young Kiwi Member Join Date: January 17, 2000 Posts: 75	comparing these rounds on paper to older rounds like the .30 M1 Carbine round, you realise how small they really are. I have always thought that the Carbine round with a different projectile would be spot on in a PDW size gun. You could even put saboted rounds into it. Comapared to the te 5.7x28 they would be impressive.

January 25, 2001, 11:55 PM	#10
George Hill Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 14, 1998 Location: North Carolina Posts: 11,546	What could be better?