OK, I'm Stumped!!! First Reload Question

frjeff · July 19, 2009, 02:29 PM

OK, I'm about to attempt my first reloads. It will be of 9mm Luger. I am attempting to set the bullet seat die to the proper OAL/COL (same?)

I have new Winchester Brass and Hornady #35557 115 gr FMJ RN ENC Bullets.

If I measure a factory Winchester 9mm 115gr FMJ, I get a 1.163" COL.

My Hornady page in One Book calls for my reload to be 1.100" COL.
My Hodgdon Annual calls for a 1.169" COL for a 115gr FMJ.
My Lyman Pistol and Revolver Handbook calls for 1.105" for a 100gr FMJ.
My Lyman 49th calls for 1.115" OAL for a 147gr TMJ

When I set a 1.100 alongside a Winchester factory ammo, it looks way, way short.

What is the deal on this and what do I do??? My books all show a 1.169" as the maximum OAL (in the picture diagram on top of 9mm Luger page in Lyman 49th).

Michaelm45 · July 19, 2009, 02:45 PM

Load it long (check to see that they fit in your mag) I'm always about 1.150.
To short equals to much pressure.
What powder are you using?

jamaica · July 19, 2009, 02:46 PM

The seating depth can increase the pressure. Those OAL dimensions that are given with a specific load in the manuals are what I would use. The load was developed using that seating depth and should be fine. You can seat them a bit longer if you want, but I would not make them shorter.

If you use the longer Loads, make sure it will work in your magazine.

frjeff · July 19, 2009, 02:50 PM

Quote:

What powder are you using?

I was going to try a few rounds with both Winchester 231 and Alliant Bullseye.

So, are you telling me to not pay much attention to the load data books on COL/OAL, but to seat bullet longer and to just never exceed the maximum COL??

frjeff · July 19, 2009, 02:53 PM

Code:

If you use the longer Loads, make sure it will work in your magazine.

The Winchester factory ammo COL (1.163") work fine in my Kahr P9

Russ5924 · July 19, 2009, 03:11 PM

I have been reloading 9MM using 4.0g W231 with a cast bullet 125G with a COLA of 1.125. They are working out quite well for me have shot them in four other 9MM and have worked great

I did try 3.8 of W231 but my Beretta didn't cycle every time. So stayed at 4.0 didn't want to make up two different reloads.

Farmland · July 19, 2009, 03:13 PM

You should match the size & type of bullet with the type of powder for the COL. Developed loads have been set for this grouping and may all have a different COL. PLEASE start with the min powder suggestion.

You can find the data by either the bullet manufactures load books, or the powder load booklets. In addition you could go to the Winchester web site and search their loading data for 231, etc.

Loading to the max COL for the round generally will not get you into trouble. Loading less than a given recommendation for a load combination can result in damge to your gun or death by creating excessive pressure.

You can try taking a look at the Winchester site. http://www.wwpowder.com/

oneounceload · July 19, 2009, 04:41 PM

Start long - you can always seat them a little deeper if needed. You stated you have a factory round that works in your gun - if the bullet shape is the same, then that would be a good place to start and proceed from there

**Unclenick** · July 19, 2009, 04:51 PM

Different bullet shapes require different COL's. For example, if you put a wide flat nose on a bullet and try to seat it to the same length as round nose ball, the chances are you will have feed problems even if they do fit in the magazine. They will jam in the feed ramp. A very light bullet may be so short that if you try to use it at the maximum COL the amount of it held by the case will be so short you have poor start pressure.

So what's a fellow to do? You have to experiment. Some guns feed more easily than others and tolerate more variance in COL, so you just have to scope out what you've got? Understand that the published COL is a number SAAMI specifies to guarantee the cartridge will fit in SAAMI compliant magazines. It doesn't mean you can't use other numbers if they work in your equipment? SAAMI isn't there to tell the individual how to load, but rather is an association of manufacturers who want to make their different brands of guns and ammunition compatible in each named chambering. The specification they arrive at assures that interchangeability.

As mentioned, seating deeper raises pressure. That's not because of the COL, it's because of how much space is available for the powder to burn in under the base of the bullet. So it really is where the bullet base is that matters, not the tip. Thus, if you have a bullet that's a long shape for its weight, it will need to be seated at a longer COL to have its base at the same position in the case as a more blunt shape of that same weight would. Having that same base position will make about the same peak pressure from a given charge of powder. There are some other factors, so loads still need to be worked up from a starging load to be certain, but the base position match is a good starting point.

In general, you want to copy the length the bullet maker's load manual uses for the bullet. If there is a cannelure, that will be intended to match the case mouth and will give you the intended seating depth for it. You just can't assume you will have the same powder charge for any two bullets of the same weight, and will have to work loads up no matter what.

wncchester · July 19, 2009, 05:16 PM

"If I measure a factory Winchester 9mm 115gr FMJ, I get a 1.163" COL.

My Hornady page in One Book calls for my reload to be 1.100" COL.
My Hodgdon Annual calls for a 1.169" COL for a 115gr FMJ.
My Lyman Pistol and Revolver Handbook calls for 1.105" for a 100gr FMJ.
My Lyman 49th calls for 1.115" OAL for a 147gr TMJ

When I set a 1.100 alongside a Winchester factory ammo, it looks way, way short.

What is the deal on this and what do I do??? My books all show a 1.169" as the maximum OAL (in the picture diagram on top of 9mm Luger page in Lyman 49th)."

Does kinda make a man wonder if OAL is as much a "science" as some make it to be, doesn't it?

It isn't science. You need to understand only one thing about the book OAL numbers; what you see is what the manual makers used to develop their data. But, your firearm isn't theirs and what works for them may well not work so well for you. Bottom line, and no matter what anyone says, the book OAL is no more a fixed figure for everyone than are the powder charges the books present.

Load a dummy round with any bullet you choose. Find a seating depth that allows it to manually work through your firearm and chamber reliably. Then pick a proper powder for that bullet weight, start low and work up until you reach max OR experience some kind of over pressure sign.

RidgwayCO · July 19, 2009, 05:20 PM

Hornady (the maker of your bullets) has tested data at a COL of 1.100". They found that with a load range of 4.1gr to 4.7gr of W231, that load was safe in their testing apparatus. I used QuickLOAD to determine that with the 1.100" COL and a case length of .750" the bullet will be seated .189" inside the case. In my experience, that is usually a sufficient amount to prevent bullet setback on feeding (remember, case tension holds the bullet in place, not the crimp).

As an aside, loading to a COL of 1.169" will only leave about .120" of the bullet in the case. That's marginal at best, in my opinion.

Personally, I'd start with Hornady's data if you have it. I'm pretty sure they want you to be happy and not hurt yourself. Once you get some experience, then you can experiment with different COLs if you think that's required for your gun to function 100%.

July 19, 2009, 02:29 PM	#1
frjeff Member Join Date: April 19, 2009 Location: Northern MI, USA Posts: 60	OK, I'm Stumped!!! First Reload Question OK, I'm about to attempt my first reloads. It will be of 9mm Luger. I am attempting to set the bullet seat die to the proper OAL/COL (same?) I have new Winchester Brass and Hornady #35557 115 gr FMJ RN ENC Bullets. If I measure a factory Winchester 9mm 115gr FMJ, I get a 1.163" COL. My Hornady page in One Book calls for my reload to be 1.100" COL. My Hodgdon Annual calls for a 1.169" COL for a 115gr FMJ. My Lyman Pistol and Revolver Handbook calls for 1.105" for a 100gr FMJ. My Lyman 49th calls for 1.115" OAL for a 147gr TMJ When I set a 1.100 alongside a Winchester factory ammo, it looks way, way short. What is the deal on this and what do I do??? My books all show a 1.169" as the maximum OAL (in the picture diagram on top of 9mm Luger page in Lyman 49th).

July 19, 2009, 02:53 PM	#5
frjeff Member Join Date: April 19, 2009 Location: Northern MI, USA Posts: 60	Code: If you use the longer Loads, make sure it will work in your magazine. The Winchester factory ammo COL (1.163") work fine in my Kahr P9

July 19, 2009, 03:11 PM	#6
Russ5924 Senior Member Join Date: February 18, 2005 Posts: 1,874	I have been reloading 9MM using 4.0g W231 with a cast bullet 125G with a COLA of 1.125. They are working out quite well for me have shot them in four other 9MM and have worked great I did try 3.8 of W231 but my Beretta didn't cycle every time. So stayed at 4.0 didn't want to make up two different reloads. __________________ Russ5924

July 19, 2009, 04:51 PM	#9
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,060	Different bullet shapes require different COL's. For example, if you put a wide flat nose on a bullet and try to seat it to the same length as round nose ball, the chances are you will have feed problems even if they do fit in the magazine. They will jam in the feed ramp. A very light bullet may be so short that if you try to use it at the maximum COL the amount of it held by the case will be so short you have poor start pressure. So what's a fellow to do? You have to experiment. Some guns feed more easily than others and tolerate more variance in COL, so you just have to scope out what you've got? Understand that the published COL is a number SAAMI specifies to guarantee the cartridge will fit in SAAMI compliant magazines. It doesn't mean you can't use other numbers if they work in your equipment? SAAMI isn't there to tell the individual how to load, but rather is an association of manufacturers who want to make their different brands of guns and ammunition compatible in each named chambering. The specification they arrive at assures that interchangeability. As mentioned, seating deeper raises pressure. That's not because of the COL, it's because of how much space is available for the powder to burn in under the base of the bullet. So it really is where the bullet base is that matters, not the tip. Thus, if you have a bullet that's a long shape for its weight, it will need to be seated at a longer COL to have its base at the same position in the case as a more blunt shape of that same weight would. Having that same base position will make about the same peak pressure from a given charge of powder. There are some other factors, so loads still need to be worked up from a starging load to be certain, but the base position match is a good starting point. In general, you want to copy the length the bullet maker's load manual uses for the bullet. If there is a cannelure, that will be intended to match the case mouth and will give you the intended seating depth for it. You just can't assume you will have the same powder charge for any two bullets of the same weight, and will have to work loads up no matter what. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

July 19, 2009, 05:20 PM	#11
RidgwayCO Senior Member Join Date: March 22, 2008 Location: Western Colorado Posts: 244	Hornady (the maker of your bullets) has tested data at a COL of 1.100". They found that with a load range of 4.1gr to 4.7gr of W231, that load was safe in their testing apparatus. I used QuickLOAD to determine that with the 1.100" COL and a case length of .750" the bullet will be seated .189" inside the case. In my experience, that is usually a sufficient amount to prevent bullet setback on feeding (remember, case tension holds the bullet in place, not the crimp). As an aside, loading to a COL of 1.169" will only leave about .120" of the bullet in the case. That's marginal at best, in my opinion. Personally, I'd start with Hornady's data if you have it. I'm pretty sure they want you to be happy and not hurt yourself. Once you get some experience, then you can experiment with different COLs if you think that's required for your gun to function 100%. __________________ "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." Nope, not a single word about hunting... Last edited by RidgwayCO; July 19, 2009 at 05:27 PM.

July 19, 2009, 02:45 PM	#2
Michaelm45 Senior Member Join Date: October 28, 2004 Location: NV Posts: 215	Load it long (check to see that they fit in your mag) I'm always about 1.150. To short equals to much pressure. What powder are you using?

July 19, 2009, 02:46 PM	#3
jamaica Senior Member Join Date: March 24, 2006 Location: Northern Utah Posts: 705	The seating depth can increase the pressure. Those OAL dimensions that are given with a specific load in the manuals are what I would use. The load was developed using that seating depth and should be fine. You can seat them a bit longer if you want, but I would not make them shorter. If you use the longer Loads, make sure it will work in your magazine.

July 19, 2009, 03:13 PM	#7
Farmland Senior Member Join Date: July 5, 2009 Posts: 869	You should match the size & type of bullet with the type of powder for the COL. Developed loads have been set for this grouping and may all have a different COL. PLEASE start with the min powder suggestion. You can find the data by either the bullet manufactures load books, or the powder load booklets. In addition you could go to the Winchester web site and search their loading data for 231, etc. Loading to the max COL for the round generally will not get you into trouble. Loading less than a given recommendation for a load combination can result in damge to your gun or death by creating excessive pressure. You can try taking a look at the Winchester site. http://www.wwpowder.com/

July 19, 2009, 04:41 PM	#8
oneounceload Junior member Join Date: April 18, 2008 Location: N. Central Florida Posts: 8,518	Start long - you can always seat them a little deeper if needed. You stated you have a factory round that works in your gun - if the bullet shape is the same, then that would be a good place to start and proceed from there

July 19, 2009, 05:16 PM	#10
wncchester Senior Member Join Date: December 1, 2002 Posts: 2,832	"If I measure a factory Winchester 9mm 115gr FMJ, I get a 1.163" COL. My Hornady page in One Book calls for my reload to be 1.100" COL. My Hodgdon Annual calls for a 1.169" COL for a 115gr FMJ. My Lyman Pistol and Revolver Handbook calls for 1.105" for a 100gr FMJ. My Lyman 49th calls for 1.115" OAL for a 147gr TMJ When I set a 1.100 alongside a Winchester factory ammo, it looks way, way short. What is the deal on this and what do I do??? My books all show a 1.169" as the maximum OAL (in the picture diagram on top of 9mm Luger page in Lyman 49th)." Does kinda make a man wonder if OAL is as much a "science" as some make it to be, doesn't it? It isn't science. You need to understand only one thing about the book OAL numbers; what you see is what the manual makers used to develop their data. But, your firearm isn't theirs and what works for them may well not work so well for you. Bottom line, and no matter what anyone says, the book OAL is no more a fixed figure for everyone than are the powder charges the books present. Load a dummy round with any bullet you choose. Find a seating depth that allows it to manually work through your firearm and chamber reliably. Then pick a proper powder for that bullet weight, start low and work up until you reach max OR experience some kind of over pressure sign.

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