getting chl soon. advice on de-escalating? - Page 2

**OldMarksman** · April 29, 2015, 04:51 PM

Posted by Skans:

Quote:

I carry a gun for one reason - to defend myself (or family who happens to be with me) from attacks by strangers who would seek to do me (or family member) serious physical harm for profit, gang initiation, or just for kicks and giggles. That's it. Yes, I am absolute about this - it is where I draw the line. And in these scenarios de-escalation is not an option.

De-escalation per se in its traditional sense may not be an option, but one can learn a lot about the different ways in which violence can occur, and how one might avoid having to pull a gun, from the book linked in Post #4.

Skans · April 29, 2015, 05:26 PM

De-escalation of conflicts or potential conflict situations is a great skill to develop, I don't debate that at all Oldmarksman. And, I looked at the book linked in #4 as well as the other links and all of this material is worth reading.

My worry is that someone will take the de-escalation thing to heart and try to use it in the wrong scenario; a scenario which really does require that you use force to quickly defend yourself. De-escalation (as I understand it) is used where two non-bad guys (or girls) have gotten angry or combative with each other to the point where one might use a gun out of shear anger. Personally, I would never let things get that out of hand. There are many other things I can do other than stand face-to-face (or car-to-car) with someone engaging in an argument that would cause the other person to become enraged. Perhaps I naturally engage in de-escalation all the time without even being aware of it.

FireForged · April 29, 2015, 06:33 PM

I whole heartedly suggest training, training training at a school that specializes in self defense/use of force.

Generally speaking, I dont consider my firearm to be the means to solve disputes. If my life is in peril, I will go to the gun as a means to use force to protect life. If the threat happens to dissolve in the face of a firearm and force is not needed.. great. My go-to method of defusing hostile situations is to not participate and leave.

I have said many times on the forums.. I do not believe that every personal trespass is a gun pulling situation. I think it is a very good idea to simply obtain the formal training and knowledge which will allow you to make those difficult distinctions.

FireForged · April 29, 2015, 06:44 PM

what I will say about these de-escalation scenarios is that it typically involves you staying engaged to some degree with the hostile person to effect some sort of resolution. When dealing with a hostile stranger, I would simply prefer to put distance between me and the hostile and not engage in some static communication in a parking lot. In many instances.. distance is your friend, not word play.

I do think that learning verbal techniques to avoid confrontation is a good thing, I simply dont see it as something I would use as opposed to avoidance altogether. If you are trapped on an elevator with the person, ok.. I get it but I am not sure how some goofball in a parking lot is going to prevent me [absent physical force], from just leaving the area.

**OldMarksman** · April 30, 2015, 07:12 AM

Posted by Skans:

Quote:

My worry is that someone will take the de-escalation thing to heart and try to use it in the wrong scenario;

That could happen, but what is your suggestion?

Quote:

....a scenario which really does require that you use force to quickly defend yourself.

That may be one kind of instance in which de-escalation may fail.

Quote:

De-escalation (as I understand it) is used where two non-bad guys (or girls) have gotten angry or combative with each other to the point where one might use a gun out of shear anger.

I think that is a gross oversimplification.

Quote:

Personally, I would never let things get that out of hand.

Sure!

Quote:

There are many other things I can do other than stand face-to-face (or car-to-car) with someone engaging in an argument that would cause the other person to become enraged.

Glad to hear it, but reading that is no substitute for studying the material linked at the beginning of the tread and thinking about it.

One of the many things that one will likely learn from the MacYoung book is that the events that culminate in a serious violent encounter may be nothing at all like what people may have in mind when they head out into the world.

raimius · May 1, 2015, 08:25 PM

De-escalation is a good skill.
Detecting escalation is an equally vital one. If you can cut off the escalation before it becomes physically threatening, all the better. (Probably easier, too!)

Skans · May 2, 2015, 09:17 AM

Quote:

That could happen, but what is your suggestion?

My only suggestion, other than some of the good things many others have already mentioned, is know where your line in the sand is, and make it a bright line.. Think about why you carry a gun. Think about where you go with it. Most of us follow the same travel patterns day after day probably more than 90% of the time. I don't believe that violent attacks are all that random and unpredictable. That would be like saying shark attacks are completely random and unpredictable. If you know your travel and activity patterns it allows you to think through more likely scenarios where you may be confronted with violence.

For me, my quick bright line test is (outside of my house): Threat of serious violence must be great; must be someone I don't know (a stranger); must be no "easy escape" for me; possible "threats" greater than 20 feet away are not "imminent" to me, so I wouldn't be shooting at distances greater than this.

Some folks might not like my "stranger" qualification - I'm not telling anyone to make this their own; it's simply part of my bright line. I just believe that when it comes to people I know (even if we hate each other), I refuse to use a firearm to defend myself" It's a moral issue with me.

**4V50 Gary** · May 2, 2015, 09:18 AM

Look up verbal judo.

Skans · May 2, 2015, 09:31 AM

Gary, I looked it up - here is the first thing I found:

Five Universal Truths of Verbal Judo

ALL cultures want to be treated with Dignity and Respect
ALL people would rather be asked than told what to do
ALL people want to know why they are asked or told to do something
ALL people would rather have options than threats
ALL people want a second chance to make matters right

From my perspective, in a split decision on whether I need to use a gun or not to defend myself, I don't find this applicable.

1. Wanting to be treated with Dignity and Respect have nothing to do with a person who is determined to carjack you.

2. Being asked or told what to do is irrelevant to the guy waiting in the bushes to jump you at the ATM machine.

3. Providing someone with options or second chances to make things right - not a factor when a couple of armed individuals are quickly approaching you in a dark parking lot.

Now, if you accidentally verbally insult someone and they get angry with you - the above premises may be perfectly valid.

**4V50 Gary** · May 2, 2015, 10:24 AM

Skans - if one is down to a split second decision whether their life is in danger and whether deadly force is justifiable, then verbal judo is inapplicable and should not even come to mind. However, the question was asked about deescalating a situation to avoid it from escalating into one requiring deadly force. That's where verbal judo comes in and if nothing else, beat feet (unless it's a deadly force situation in which retreat is not feasible).

I wasn't taught those five steps of verbal judo but showed respect and addressed things in a manner so as not to personalize the issue. I tried to empower the individual towards a peaceful resolution. "What would you like done?" If nothing else, as a patrol officer, I'd throw down the gauntlet. I'd ask, "Now, you're the boss and you're in control."

(This makes the other guy feel very happy and empowered).

"I'm going to take my orders from you."

(This really makes them feel good)

"Either you're going to tell me that I'm going to leave you alone and that you're going to walk away."

(Hobson's choice coming up).

"Or that I have take you before the magistrate at which point I'm going to have to arrest you and toss you in jail."

(Now the shoe dropped and they know I hold the ace card; but they decide whether I play that card. Still, (s)he may walk away with their dignity intact).

"Which of the two orders are you going to give me, Sir?"

(Reaffirmed that they now control their own fate and that I remain respectful of them.)

No one ever demanded to be taken before a magistrate. Thankfully that saved me a lot of paperwork.

raimius · May 2, 2015, 11:39 PM

Skans, you seem to assume that the only cases you'll encounter will be clear-cut pre-meditated violent assaults.

While you may not be stupid enough to wind up in a situation like the Trayvon Martin case, look at how that went from two people making assumptions about relatively innocuous things to a lethal force encounter. Neither person was committing a crime at the start. Both seemed to think they were in the right. Neither stepped back to de-escalate...one wound up dead, and the other had his life turned upside down.
Life is messy. Sure, there are some clear-cut cases, and those are much easier to mentally prepare for. Yet, there are plenty of cases each year where both parties knowingly or unknowingly escalate things until physical violence occurs. Seeing that and knowing how to avoid it is a good skill to have.

pax · May 3, 2015, 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raimius

Skans, you seem to assume that the only cases you'll encounter will be clear-cut pre-meditated violent assaults.
...
Life is messy. Sure, there are some clear-cut cases, and those are much easier to mentally prepare for. Yet, there are plenty of cases each year where both parties knowingly or unknowingly escalate things until physical violence occurs. Seeing that and knowing how to avoid it is a good skill to have.

Spot on!

It's not as if criminals never interview their potential victims before deciding to attack. Or as if life-threatening violence always and only happens in one very narrow and specific set of circumstances, and cannot possibly happen in any other.

This very limited view of violence leaves out huge swathes of potentially deadly situations and because it does, it is deeply flawed.

pax

Skans · May 4, 2015, 08:41 AM

The article, "Interview" pretty much makes my point, Pax. Let's look at its highlights:

1. Regular Interview (most common for muggers) - other than saying "no" to the interviewee's requests, it advises you to keep your distance.

Quote:

"This is why you should always be careful when someone approaches you in a fringe area and asks for something. Your answer should always be "no" and insist on him keeping his distance. Both muggers and stranger rapists often use this technique."

Nothing in here about de-escalation, much of it has to do with being aware of your surroundings, recognizing what's really going on and being determined to defend yourself.

2. Hot Interview (sudden and unexpected emotional blitzkriegs against you). These just "pop out of nowhere". "You are minding your own business one minute, and the next you have a threatening, obscenity-spouting, screaming person charging down on you" for the purpose of sizing you up as his next victim. "You must be willing to immediately shift into an extreme of physical violence to fail such interviews." Nothing here either about de-escalation; you are taking action to show that you are not going to be an easy target. I've been in this situation before and did just that.

3. Escalating Interview - seen in date rape attacks and loitering group of thugs "jest messin" with you. No advice given on conversations or verbal judo that will de-escalate the situation.

4. Silent Interview - basically a hidden stalker observing you waiting to pounce. No talking going on in this one.

5. Prolonged Interview - Serial rapists and people looking to conduct a fraud or scam. Serial rapist is not applicable to me and frauds/scams are not something you can shoot at to save your life.

Don't get me wrong, I thought the cited article was actually very good. It just tends to support my position than it does a position for engaging in de-escalation conversations to stop an attack.

**OldMarksman** · May 4, 2015, 09:00 AM

Posted by Skans:

Quote:

The article, "Interview" pretty much makes my point,.... ...Don't get me wrong, I thought the cited article was actually very good. It just tends to support my position than it does a position for engaging in de-escalation conversations to stop an attack.

I'm afraid that neither your "point" nor your "position" not clear. your thoughts seem to be based on the assumption, as raimus pointed out, that the only cases you'll encounter will be clear-cut pre-meditated violent assaults.

Or, as pax put it,

Quote:

Okay. So your vision of a valid self defense scenario ALWAYS and IN EVERY CIRCUMSTANCE will involve the threat that comes out of nowhere, an "ambush type attack." That being the case, in your view, absolutely no soft skills (such as verbal de-escalation of angry others) could possibly help you avoid needing to save your life with the gun.

That's a rather limited view of how violence happens, and a very limited understanding of how deadly force attacks can play out.

As I have said already, one of the things that one will see immediately from reading the book linked in Post # 4 is the error inherent in that assumption.

That book will take you a long time to read, but it will give you greater benefit than just continuing to imagine what might happen to you in a violent encounter.

Brit · May 13, 2015, 06:40 AM

On average, violence is totally foreign to the average person. They have never been involved in it since they were 8 years of age, or thereabouts.
Take this average person, if there even is such an animal, have them obtain a CCW, a pistol, and training in the use of this weapon, and have them continue living their life, as they have done up to this time.
Locking the house behind them, setting an alarm (hopefully!) and with a significant other, set off to go about the business of living in peace and tranquility, day by day. For instance a retired couple.

Pushing a grocery cart, heading back to your parked vehicle, in an area you have frequented many, maybe a hundred times before, two young men, leaned against a car, ahead of you, take note of you approaching, straighten up, and stand in your way!

"Got a cigarette Pops?"

This is how attacks happen! Right out of the blue. A mundane activity suddenly going all to hell.

Am I going to spout solutions here? No, not at all, but this kind of situation happens all over America, every day.

Are we more able to deal with it, because we are Glock'd up? Or not?

Art Eatman · May 13, 2015, 09:55 AM

De-escalation is not in the same book as dealing with an attack. Two different things, so let's stay on topic, please.

Buzzcook · May 13, 2015, 11:02 AM

I notice the word criminal used in this thread. If we're talking about street crime then giving the mugger your wallet is usually the best practice.
But in many violent confrontations the people involved don't become criminals until the violence happens.

Stay away from places that serve alcohol for recreational purposes. Especially were there is a lot of excess testosterone and alcohol. After doing that the amount of violent confrontations I've been in dropped to zero.

Take a note from our Buddhist friends and start the deescalation inside yourself first. It is often our own reactions to others that starts the climb toward violence. Being self aware as to how your words, actions, and reactions effect the world around you.
I don't want to start throwing around words like duality or illusion, but a study of various life philosophies won't hurt too much.

To quote Kant: "All men need a master, and that is themselves, through reason".

The only one we can truly have control over is ourselves.

FireForged · May 15, 2015, 09:09 PM

Quote:

the people involved don't become criminals until the violence happens.

There are people who wake up every morning a criminal. criminal can be a way of life, a personality, a concept, an ideology, an attitude. Criminality is not necessarily a single act.

**JohnKSa** · May 15, 2015, 09:19 PM

Quote:

1. Wanting to be treated with Dignity and Respect have nothing to do with a person who is determined to carjack you.

2. Being asked or told what to do is irrelevant to the guy waiting in the bushes to jump you at the ATM machine.

3. Providing someone with options or second chances to make things right - not a factor when a couple of armed individuals are quickly approaching you in a dark parking lot.

This is a very limited subset of the possible situations where deadly force might become necessary.

Rather than trying to make an exhaustive list, it's instructive to consider one possibility to make the point. Based on statistics on assault and murder it is quite likely that an attacker may be an acquaintance or family member. That's obviously a situation where most people would try to de-escalate before opening fire.

kilimanjaro · May 15, 2015, 10:30 PM

It's not illegal to defend your life and limb, or those of others.

Be sure that's what you are doing. Remember you have the power of life and death over anyone in front of the muzzle of your firearm. Don't use that power for any other purpose. Your ego, a piece of property, a bit of money, self-satisfaction, grandstanding, any reason other than defending life and limb will put you in jail and cost you everything you own or will own.

Look at Zimmermann today. His life is ruined, and will stay that way. All he had to do was remain in his car. Legally, he was justified. But the fact remains that he got out of his car and went to close proximity to a suspicious person for no reason other than something that may have been police officer wanna-be. That started the chain of events.

As far as de-escalation, if you don't already do this, begin doing it now as a life change :

Realize you are not a police officer. Minding your own business prevents a great many situations from developing.

Lose your aggressiveness, if you haven't already. That includes aggressive driving, being the big mouth at the café, intimidation, whatever.

Lose your sensitivity. You bump into someone in the doorway, apologize. Everytime. Someone cuts you off, let it go. Someone in the tavern decides you are the ugliest poindexter he has ever seen, let it go. Get up and leave.

Become a gentleman. Civil and polite to all, including the scummy vagrant who wants a dollar. Go ahead, snarl at him about getting a job, maybe the drug-addled petty criminal pulls a knife on you for that and things escalate into a shooting. Lots easier to say, "sorry, I don't carry cash" and keep on.

johnelmore · May 17, 2015, 07:13 PM

I am not an expert on de escalation, a psychologist, etc. However, what I do when I see someone upset or acting erratically is not to say anything and to keep a straight face. Ultimately, I try to distance myself from odd situations whenever I can. If someones behavior doesnt seem right I try to move away.

I dont think there is any one size fits all solution to it. I just try to keep myself from being a contributing factor and try to exit. For a police officer who must be there on the scene their tactics would be different, but for me Joe Average Im going to try to make an exit.

There was a time when I was faced with a revolver. I simply didnt move or say anything. I kept a straight face and my eyes were on the man with the revolver. I got out of it. If that was the right thing to do I dont know, but Im still alive.

Skans · May 18, 2015, 12:21 PM

Quote:

Based on statistics on assault and murder it is quite likely that an attacker may be an acquaintance or family member. That's obviously a situation where most people would try to de-escalate before opening fire.

I've already come to my personal conclusion that I will never use a gun on an attacker who is an acquaintance or family member of mine - not even if my own life is in danger. As far as I'm concerned, for me these situations are "gun-off-limits."

Like I said, I carry a gun for one reason only - to defend against deadly ambush style attacks by strangers. Even road rage incidents - I'm not going to pull a gun and start threatening or shooting it while I'm trying to drive or even sitting at a light. If I'm stopped, blocked and under attack, this is no longer road rage.

If you think I'm being too narrow minded about this, please give me some situations where you think I might consider using a gun on an acquaintance or family member?

I work in a tiny office setting (no one is going to go postal), I'm a male (so I'm not going to be date-raped or beaten by a spouse); and I don't hang around bars, drunks or druggies.

**JohnKSa** · May 18, 2015, 10:53 PM

Quote:

I've already come to my personal conclusion that I will never use a gun on an attacker who is an acquaintance or family member of mine - not even if my own life is in danger. As far as I'm concerned, for me these situations are "gun-off-limits."

Then you should spend a lot of time learning how to de-escalate effectively given that you have made a firm decision to not resort to deadly force in these situations. De-escalation is probably one of the best possible responses in a situation where the deadly force option is off the table.

Quote:

If you think I'm being too narrow minded about this, please give me some situations where you think I might consider using a gun on an acquaintance or family member?

I don't think you understood my post at all. I don't think your decision about deadly force and family/friends is unique, and that was my point. Most people would have a difficult time using deadly force against a family member or acquaintance even if they were in serious danger from such a person. Combine that fact with the statistics which indicate that attackers are often family members or friends and it becomes obvious why it is important to learn de-escalation skills.

pax · May 18, 2015, 11:27 PM

Quote:

Then you should spend a lot of time learning how to de-escalate effectively given that you have made a firm decision to not resort to deadly force in these situations. De-escalation is probably one of the best possible responses in a situation where the deadly force option is off the table.

Great advice.

And here's where I, once again, recommend the work of Rory Miller -- an author who spent a lot of time in an environment where using a firearm was not an option but de-escalation skills were required on a daily basis.

pax

dirtd0g · May 19, 2015, 12:24 AM

During my 8-year EMS career I was regularly thrown into tense situations that sometimes came to blows. The ONLY times a physical altercation became unavoidable the assailant was intoxicated... And a couple of times high on PCP or something.

We were never given any in-depth instruction on talking someone down or deescalation, but you pick up some tricks along the way.

[1] Speak clearly, calmly, and with a level tone. Yelling or being too "sing-songy" is imposing and condescending.

[2] Expose your palms to the subject. You are not a threat. You are not an enemy. Do not go into a clenched-fisted boxer's stance... Keep your shields and weapons powered down; the Klingons may see anything else as provocation.

[3] Take your time, inhale, count to five, exhale slowly. Be aware of the situation and your reaction to it. Do not allow the subject's demeanor and attitude to reflect onto you. See the big picture.

[4] Talk is powerful. Ask questions, get to the root of the problem. Find an opening for some humor.

[5] If tensions cannot be eased in a minute or two it is possible the subject has already made up their mind and is going to act violently regardless of what you do. Fight or flight will kick in.

I have been the first on scene for wounded, knife-weilding criminals who only saw flashing lights and a uniform. I have been thrown into the middle of domestic disturbances and the aftermaths of violent crimes. I have been blamed for the death of a young woman by her parents when here injuries proved too severe to help. In all my time I had only ever been personally attacked once by an angry ex-Marine who was high on PCP and thought we were taking him to a gas chamber... No amount of talk was getting me out of that one.

April 29, 2015, 06:33 PM	#28
FireForged Senior Member Join Date: November 4, 1999 Location: Rebel South USA Posts: 2,074	I whole heartedly suggest training, training training at a school that specializes in self defense/use of force. Generally speaking, I dont consider my firearm to be the means to solve disputes. If my life is in peril, I will go to the gun as a means to use force to protect life. If the threat happens to dissolve in the face of a firearm and force is not needed.. great. My go-to method of defusing hostile situations is to not participate and leave. I have said many times on the forums.. I do not believe that every personal trespass is a gun pulling situation. I think it is a very good idea to simply obtain the formal training and knowledge which will allow you to make those difficult distinctions. __________________ Life is a web woven by necessity and chance...

April 29, 2015, 06:44 PM	#29
FireForged Senior Member Join Date: November 4, 1999 Location: Rebel South USA Posts: 2,074	what I will say about these de-escalation scenarios is that it typically involves you staying engaged to some degree with the hostile person to effect some sort of resolution. When dealing with a hostile stranger, I would simply prefer to put distance between me and the hostile and not engage in some static communication in a parking lot. In many instances.. distance is your friend, not word play. I do think that learning verbal techniques to avoid confrontation is a good thing, I simply dont see it as something I would use as opposed to avoidance altogether. If you are trapped on an elevator with the person, ok.. I get it but I am not sure how some goofball in a parking lot is going to prevent me [absent physical force], from just leaving the area. __________________ Life is a web woven by necessity and chance...

May 2, 2015, 09:18 AM	#33
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,841	Look up verbal judo. __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

May 2, 2015, 10:24 AM	#35
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,841	Skans - if one is down to a split second decision whether their life is in danger and whether deadly force is justifiable, then verbal judo is inapplicable and should not even come to mind. However, the question was asked about deescalating a situation to avoid it from escalating into one requiring deadly force. That's where verbal judo comes in and if nothing else, beat feet (unless it's a deadly force situation in which retreat is not feasible). I wasn't taught those five steps of verbal judo but showed respect and addressed things in a manner so as not to personalize the issue. I tried to empower the individual towards a peaceful resolution. "What would you like done?" If nothing else, as a patrol officer, I'd throw down the gauntlet. I'd ask, "Now, you're the boss and you're in control." (This makes the other guy feel very happy and empowered). "I'm going to take my orders from you." (This really makes them feel good) "Either you're going to tell me that I'm going to leave you alone and that you're going to walk away." (Hobson's choice coming up). "Or that I have take you before the magistrate at which point I'm going to have to arrest you and toss you in jail." (Now the shoe dropped and they know I hold the ace card; but they decide whether I play that card. Still, (s)he may walk away with their dignity intact). "Which of the two orders are you going to give me, Sir?" (Reaffirmed that they now control their own fate and that I remain respectful of them.) No one ever demanded to be taken before a magistrate. Thankfully that saved me a lot of paperwork. __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

April 29, 2015, 05:26 PM	#27
Skans Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2008 Posts: 11,132	De-escalation of conflicts or potential conflict situations is a great skill to develop, I don't debate that at all Oldmarksman. And, I looked at the book linked in #4 as well as the other links and all of this material is worth reading. My worry is that someone will take the de-escalation thing to heart and try to use it in the wrong scenario; a scenario which really does require that you use force to quickly defend yourself. De-escalation (as I understand it) is used where two non-bad guys (or girls) have gotten angry or combative with each other to the point where one might use a gun out of shear anger. Personally, I would never let things get that out of hand. There are many other things I can do other than stand face-to-face (or car-to-car) with someone engaging in an argument that would cause the other person to become enraged. Perhaps I naturally engage in de-escalation all the time without even being aware of it.

May 1, 2015, 08:25 PM	#31
raimius Senior Member Join Date: January 27, 2008 Posts: 2,199	De-escalation is a good skill. Detecting escalation is an equally vital one. If you can cut off the escalation before it becomes physically threatening, all the better. (Probably easier, too!)

May 2, 2015, 09:31 AM	#34
Skans Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2008 Posts: 11,132	Gary, I looked it up - here is the first thing I found: Five Universal Truths of Verbal Judo ALL cultures want to be treated with Dignity and Respect ALL people would rather be asked than told what to do ALL people want to know why they are asked or told to do something ALL people would rather have options than threats ALL people want a second chance to make matters right From my perspective, in a split decision on whether I need to use a gun or not to defend myself, I don't find this applicable. 1. Wanting to be treated with Dignity and Respect have nothing to do with a person who is determined to carjack you. 2. Being asked or told what to do is irrelevant to the guy waiting in the bushes to jump you at the ATM machine. 3. Providing someone with options or second chances to make things right - not a factor when a couple of armed individuals are quickly approaching you in a dark parking lot. Now, if you accidentally verbally insult someone and they get angry with you - the above premises may be perfectly valid.

May 2, 2015, 11:39 PM	#36
raimius Senior Member Join Date: January 27, 2008 Posts: 2,199	Skans, you seem to assume that the only cases you'll encounter will be clear-cut pre-meditated violent assaults. While you may not be stupid enough to wind up in a situation like the Trayvon Martin case, look at how that went from two people making assumptions about relatively innocuous things to a lethal force encounter. Neither person was committing a crime at the start. Both seemed to think they were in the right. Neither stepped back to de-escalate...one wound up dead, and the other had his life turned upside down. Life is messy. Sure, there are some clear-cut cases, and those are much easier to mentally prepare for. Yet, there are plenty of cases each year where both parties knowingly or unknowingly escalate things until physical violence occurs. Seeing that and knowing how to avoid it is a good skill to have.

May 13, 2015, 06:40 AM	#40
Brit Senior Member Join Date: January 29, 2005 Location: Orlando FL Posts: 1,934	On average, violence is totally foreign to the average person. They have never been involved in it since they were 8 years of age, or thereabouts. Take this average person, if there even is such an animal, have them obtain a CCW, a pistol, and training in the use of this weapon, and have them continue living their life, as they have done up to this time. Locking the house behind them, setting an alarm (hopefully!) and with a significant other, set off to go about the business of living in peace and tranquility, day by day. For instance a retired couple. Pushing a grocery cart, heading back to your parked vehicle, in an area you have frequented many, maybe a hundred times before, two young men, leaned against a car, ahead of you, take note of you approaching, straighten up, and stand in your way! "Got a cigarette Pops?" This is how attacks happen! Right out of the blue. A mundane activity suddenly going all to hell. Am I going to spout solutions here? No, not at all, but this kind of situation happens all over America, every day. Are we more able to deal with it, because we are Glock'd up? Or not?

May 13, 2015, 09:55 AM	#41
Art Eatman Staff in Memoriam Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Terlingua, TX; Thomasville, GA Posts: 24,798	De-escalation is not in the same book as dealing with an attack. Two different things, so let's stay on topic, please.

May 13, 2015, 11:02 AM	#42
Buzzcook Senior Member Join Date: November 29, 2007 Location: Everett, WA Posts: 6,126	I notice the word criminal used in this thread. If we're talking about street crime then giving the mugger your wallet is usually the best practice. But in many violent confrontations the people involved don't become criminals until the violence happens. Stay away from places that serve alcohol for recreational purposes. Especially were there is a lot of excess testosterone and alcohol. After doing that the amount of violent confrontations I've been in dropped to zero. Take a note from our Buddhist friends and start the deescalation inside yourself first. It is often our own reactions to others that starts the climb toward violence. Being self aware as to how your words, actions, and reactions effect the world around you. I don't want to start throwing around words like duality or illusion, but a study of various life philosophies won't hurt too much. To quote Kant: "All men need a master, and that is themselves, through reason". The only one we can truly have control over is ourselves.

May 15, 2015, 10:30 PM	#45
kilimanjaro Senior Member Join Date: November 23, 2009 Posts: 3,963	It's not illegal to defend your life and limb, or those of others. Be sure that's what you are doing. Remember you have the power of life and death over anyone in front of the muzzle of your firearm. Don't use that power for any other purpose. Your ego, a piece of property, a bit of money, self-satisfaction, grandstanding, any reason other than defending life and limb will put you in jail and cost you everything you own or will own. Look at Zimmermann today. His life is ruined, and will stay that way. All he had to do was remain in his car. Legally, he was justified. But the fact remains that he got out of his car and went to close proximity to a suspicious person for no reason other than something that may have been police officer wanna-be. That started the chain of events. As far as de-escalation, if you don't already do this, begin doing it now as a life change : Realize you are not a police officer. Minding your own business prevents a great many situations from developing. Lose your aggressiveness, if you haven't already. That includes aggressive driving, being the big mouth at the café, intimidation, whatever. Lose your sensitivity. You bump into someone in the doorway, apologize. Everytime. Someone cuts you off, let it go. Someone in the tavern decides you are the ugliest poindexter he has ever seen, let it go. Get up and leave. Become a gentleman. Civil and polite to all, including the scummy vagrant who wants a dollar. Go ahead, snarl at him about getting a job, maybe the drug-addled petty criminal pulls a knife on you for that and things escalate into a shooting. Lots easier to say, "sorry, I don't carry cash" and keep on.

May 17, 2015, 07:13 PM	#46
johnelmore Senior Member Join Date: April 6, 2013 Posts: 456	I am not an expert on de escalation, a psychologist, etc. However, what I do when I see someone upset or acting erratically is not to say anything and to keep a straight face. Ultimately, I try to distance myself from odd situations whenever I can. If someones behavior doesnt seem right I try to move away. I dont think there is any one size fits all solution to it. I just try to keep myself from being a contributing factor and try to exit. For a police officer who must be there on the scene their tactics would be different, but for me Joe Average Im going to try to make an exit. There was a time when I was faced with a revolver. I simply didnt move or say anything. I kept a straight face and my eyes were on the man with the revolver. I got out of it. If that was the right thing to do I dont know, but Im still alive.

May 19, 2015, 12:24 AM	#50
dirtd0g Member Join Date: April 3, 2015 Location: New England Posts: 69	During my 8-year EMS career I was regularly thrown into tense situations that sometimes came to blows. The ONLY times a physical altercation became unavoidable the assailant was intoxicated... And a couple of times high on PCP or something. We were never given any in-depth instruction on talking someone down or deescalation, but you pick up some tricks along the way. [1] Speak clearly, calmly, and with a level tone. Yelling or being too "sing-songy" is imposing and condescending. [2] Expose your palms to the subject. You are not a threat. You are not an enemy. Do not go into a clenched-fisted boxer's stance... Keep your shields and weapons powered down; the Klingons may see anything else as provocation. [3] Take your time, inhale, count to five, exhale slowly. Be aware of the situation and your reaction to it. Do not allow the subject's demeanor and attitude to reflect onto you. See the big picture. [4] Talk is powerful. Ask questions, get to the root of the problem. Find an opening for some humor. [5] If tensions cannot be eased in a minute or two it is possible the subject has already made up their mind and is going to act violently regardless of what you do. Fight or flight will kick in. I have been the first on scene for wounded, knife-weilding criminals who only saw flashing lights and a uniform. I have been thrown into the middle of domestic disturbances and the aftermaths of violent crimes. I have been blamed for the death of a young woman by her parents when here injuries proved too severe to help. In all my time I had only ever been personally attacked once by an angry ex-Marine who was high on PCP and thought we were taking him to a gas chamber... No amount of talk was getting me out of that one.