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Old July 18, 2014, 02:25 PM   #1
William T. Watts
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Exceed factory velocity with 30/30?

I would like to use a 30/30 this fall hunting deer with my son if we draw a permit for the White River game refuge. I have a Marlin/Remington lever gun I've never used, I think factory ammunition is loaded down for the older rifles still in use, if I load above the factory 36,000 cup max I feel I still have a good margin of safety. I would be using Virgin W-W cases 170gr Partitions IMR4064, I feel the new rifle would probably be stronger than the Winchester rifle I had years ago.. I do have some Federal factory ammo to check velocities that I can use to try to say when its time to stop. I like to use a starret mic to measure the expansion over the web for factory ammunition and duplicate it with my handloads. I would like to achieve at least 2100FPS with a 20" barrel.. What do you think, is it Doable?? William

My wording was a bit awkward, I hope I smoothed it out!

Last edited by William T. Watts; July 18, 2014 at 08:34 PM.
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Old July 18, 2014, 02:55 PM   #2
Bart B.
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Measuring web expansion then duplicating it may work, but only with the same make and lot of cases. If different makes are used, the cases having softer brass will expand more for a given peak pressure.

I don't think the velocity increase you may gain is worth it for 30-30 cartridges. More pressure increases the chance of extraction problems. Part of peak pressure specs is what is within the limits of the case design and it's support in the chamber. I think its in everyone's best interests to reload safe ammo and stay at or below safe maximum pressures. And set a good example for your son in reloading for him to follow.

I think you can get 2200 fps with that bullet with normal pressures:

http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/rifle

Last edited by Bart B.; July 18, 2014 at 03:15 PM.
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Old July 18, 2014, 03:17 PM   #3
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I don't load for 30-30, but checked my notes and I got a bit over 2000 fps with 170 gr Winchester factory ammo from my 20" Marlin. Lots of handloads listed at 2200-2300 fps from 24" barrels in my loading manuals too. A 30-30 doesn't give up as much from short barrels, I still got 1970 fps from my 16" trapper. I think 2100 fps is a realistic goal.

I also don't think it will make a huge difference either. 100 fps gain makes minor differences at 400 yards with modern rifles, I don't see it being a game changer at 30-30 ranges.
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Old July 18, 2014, 03:39 PM   #4
William T. Watts
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I have once fired and Virgin W-W cases to compare so it will be an apple to apple comparison plus I'm not a newbe. I've been loading ammunition for 45+ years, at my age I know what's it's like to be careful plus I've been thru P.O. Ackly's gunsmithing School at Trinidad St. in Colorado. I'm sure modern gun metalurgy has improved dramatically in 100+ years plus when the 30/30 was introduced. Non the less I think it will be interesting to see where this goes.. William
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Old July 18, 2014, 04:12 PM   #5
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Without trying to de-rail your thread.. I will suggest a different powder.

https://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/SuperLever.pdf


https://www.google.com/search?q=Leve...icrosoft:en-US
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Old July 18, 2014, 04:52 PM   #6
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I have a older Savage 30-30 bolt gun, I experimented with loads to the high end of the scale best kept to myself. That was years ago. The Savage also allowed the use of high BC spitzer bullets.
I remember distinctly seeing signs of excess pressure in the cases and backing off. IMHO, I do not recommend exceeding tech data in the 30-30. I pulled the bullets and abandoned the idea altogether. I am certain I was using WW brass, but it was long ago.
One interesting note about the Savage bolt gun was the incredible accuracy out of a 30-30 one could attain with spitzer bullets.
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Old July 18, 2014, 05:03 PM   #7
totaldla
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Quote:
Originally Posted by William T. Watts

I'm thinking I would like to use a 30/30 this fall for a deer hunt my son and I are planning for this fall. I have a Marlin/Remington lever gun I've never used, I know factory ammunition is loaded down for the older rifles still in use, my question is if I loaded above the factory 36,000 cup max. I would be using Virgin W-W cases 170gr Partitions IMR4064, I feel the new rifle would probably be stronger than the Winchester rifle I had years ago.. I do have some Federal factory ammo to check velocities that I can use to try to say when its time to stop. I like to use a starret mic to measure the expansion over the web for factory ammuniton and duplicate it with my handloads. I would like to achive at least 2100FPS with a 20" barrel.. What do you think, is it Doable?? William
Certainly doable. The top-end powder for the 30-30 is Hodgdon's Leverevolution - which is available because it doesn't do anything special in any other cartridge. I'm pretty sure you can get to 2100fps as Hodgdon stops at 35K CUP when max is 38K CUP (42K psi). The cases are going to stretch like crazy though.

I don't think the metal is the limiting factor really.

But I just have to point out that pushing a 170gr pill an extra 200 fps isn't going to make a 30-30 a sniper rifle. IMO your son would be much better off shooting a scazzilon rounds of 2100fps fodder and learning to shoot - I seriously don't think a deer is going to laugh off a hit from 2100fps ammo.

Now if your goal is to flatten out the trajectory, then consider going down in bullet weight, or buying a pound of LeverevoLution.
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Old July 18, 2014, 05:27 PM   #8
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I brought up the same subject with a local shooter who is very knowledgable about such things. His advice was "move the blind a hundred yards closer".

Tongue in cheek aside, A couple of posters have mentioned Lever Revolution powder. Good choice, I have used it and would make it my permanent powder for 30- 30 if I needed maximum performance.
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Old July 18, 2014, 06:09 PM   #9
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I was always under the impression the weakness in a lever action 30-30 was not the metal used, but the action itself and the way it locks up at the rear, and it's the action that limits levers to low pressure rounds....even in Marlins. This also makes it hard to tell when working up a load, because levers don't show signs of excessive pressure like other actions. This is why most stay within published loads for levers. But since you're a gunsmith I'm sure you already know this.
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Old July 18, 2014, 07:41 PM   #10
William T. Watts
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I remembered I have a Ken Waters Pet Loads manual that indicated he exceeded 2300FPS with 170gr FN bullets without encountering indications of high pressure. I had forgotten about having the manual and rarely use it anymore but it does make for interesting reading. FWIW I intend to use the rifle not my son, I have plenty of other center fire rifles in the usual calibres I just want to hunt and kill an animal with what I used 50 years ago. My son will be 50 next month and has no interest in loading anything as long as dad keeps him supplied. It's not my intent to stress case or rifle just realize the full potential of a cartridge I think is down loaded by the factory for older rifles! William

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Old July 18, 2014, 07:55 PM   #11
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Mr. William, I think I have some 30/30 cases if you want them/need them. Just let me know.
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Old July 19, 2014, 12:29 AM   #12
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CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond or not covered by currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

I bought a number of 30-30 rifles to overload them to see what would happen.
But the Win 94 and Marlin 335 rifles I bought had such flimsy actions that I chickened out with them.

But with a Sav 219 break action 30-30 that looked many times stronger than the brass, I worked up to 38 gr W749 220 gr HNDY round nose moly W748 2.92" 26"
Quickload prediction:
83 kpsi 2446 fps
Result: brass and primer still look good

When I started handloading, I got a Rockchucker kit that came with my first load book, Speer 12.

"Speer 12" 1994:
"Some bolt-action and single-shot rifles have been chambered for this cartridge. Reloaders can sue spritzer-type bullets in these rifles, but should keep the weight to 150 grains or less. Heavier spritzer bullets cannot be drive fast enough in the 30-30 to expand reliably. We are occasionally asked if the 30-30 can be loaded to higher velocities in a modern bolt action like the Remington model 788. The answer is NO! The 30-30 case is an old design with relatively thin walls. Attempting to load "hotter" would risk a dangerous case failure."


I have cross sectioned about every brand I could find of 30-30 brass.
I searched for a piece of 30-30 brass that does not look as thick and strong as I would like.
But these days I search that book to try to find one thing in it that is correct.
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Old July 19, 2014, 10:33 PM   #13
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30-30 loads

i have a one caliber/one Book for the 30-30 and Nosler's section lists loads with the 170gr Partition using Winchester brass and Winchester large rifle primers.They list 3 powders from IMR that exceed 2100 fps and one that comes darn close at 2090 fps.They also claim that this data is from a 20in barrel.Most likely a test barrel of some kind so your results would not quite match.IMR 4320 maxes out at 2192 fps,IMR 4895 at 2160 fps IMR 3031 at 2168 fps and IMR 4198 at 2090 fps.
Under the IMR section IMR-4064 is listed with Remington brass and primers and with a Remington core lock bullet at 2130 fps from a 20in barrel but the load data says it is at 38,000 cup.
Reloader 15 might be the way to go they claim 2330 fps with Winchester brass and primers from a 24 in barrel using a Hornady bullet.Out of a 20 in barrel you might loose 100 fps if that.
On a personal note I to have an old 30-30 bolt action Savage 340-C.I went the other way loading a Speer 130gr.At about 2420 fps its a tack driver.
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Old July 20, 2014, 04:18 PM   #14
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I don't consider the 30/30 cartridge a speed demon in a lever action. I conducted a series of tests attempting to find the best accuracy with a 170 Hornady.

IMR 4064 was a good powder, I tested a number, including AA4350 and AA2700 hoping to find a combination of accuracy and velocity. N135 gave me the best overall accuracy at or around 2100 fps.
I am of the opinion that these lever action rifles will shoot their best accuracy at or around 2100 fps with a 170. Low velocities, higher velocities, resulted in blown groups. Such as I encountered in the AA2520 series of tests. I believe the best accuracy comes from powders with low velocity standard deviations. These lever action rifles are complicated structures, lots of things hanging off the barrel, all with different vibrational modes, and my Marlin only shot well in a limited pressure/velocity range.

I am not going to publish my AA5744 data, but I got 2163 fps and blown groups. I believe I was exceeding, by a good margin, published data. It is my recollection recoil was stout, the rifle lever unlocked itself on recoil, and accuracy was poor.

I recommend trying IMR 4064 and N135 with your 170's, see what happens at factory velocities. If your lever action shoots ten shot groups less than three inches at 100 yards, that is very good for these things. I am certain a number of people will claim half MOA with three shot groups, but I would like to see some ten shot groups, as I am of the opinion, three shots is not a sufficiently large population to substantiate accuracy claims. It is more likely that tight three shot groups are just statistical aberrations, especially out of lever actions. I tested my Marlin at 100 yards and I got what I got.

In a front locking bolt rifle, there is no reason to stay within the low pressures of ammunition manufactured for these rear locking lever actions. Pressure levels for the 30/30 are based on the assumption the ammunition will be used in these weak lever rifles and pressures are appropriate for the actions.

I would not make the assumption that ammunition is downloaded for old rifles, though old rifles would be made out of plain carbon steels, I think this design is springy and weak, and I don't recommend exceeding factory pressures even in a modern 30/30 lever action. Maybe the M99 Savage is stronger, but, still, this cartridge is not a speed demon no matter what rifle it is fired in.

Code:
Marlin M336 microgroove barrel

170 gr Hornady FBFP  31.0 grs AA2520 wtd lot 9595 W/W cases CCI200 OAL 2.545" 	
								
10 Jan 2014 T =  51 °F						
								
Ave Vel =	1852			 	 			
Std Dev =	41			 	 			
ES =	55			 	 			
High =	1864			 	 			
Low =	1809			 	 			
N =	5				 			
						
								
170 gr Hornady FBFP  31.5 grs AA2520 wtd lot 9595 W/W cases CCI200 OAL 2.545" 	
								
10 Jan 2014 T =  51 °F						
								
Ave Vel =	1873			 	 			
Std Dev =	40			 	 			
ES =	68			 	 			
High =	1883			 	 			
Low =	1815			 	 			
N =	5				 			
		
								
170 gr Hornady FBFP  33.0 grs AA2520 wtd lot 9595 W/W cases CCI200 OAL 2.550" 	
								
14 Jan 2014 T =  50 °F						
								
Ave Vel =	1986				 			
Std Dev =	25				 			
ES =	58				 			
High =	2014				 			
Low =	1956				 			
N =	5				 			
		Last three shots good group				
								
170 gr Hornady FBFP  34.0 grs AA2520 wtd lot 9595 W/W cases CCI200 OAL 2.550" 	
								
14 Jan 2014 T =  50 °F						
								
Ave Vel =	2115			 	 			
Std Dev =	35			 	 			
ES =	87			 	 			
High =	2143			 	 			
Low =	2056			 	 			
N =	5				 			
		Good group, best of series 					
								
170 gr Hornady FBFP  34.0 grs AA2520 wtd lot 9595 W/W cases CCI200 OAL 2.550" 	
								
7 Feb 2014 T =  40 °F						
								
Ave Vel =	2117							
Std Dev =	24							
ES =	78							
High =	2148							
Low =	2070							
N =	10							
		 						
								
170 gr Hornady FBFP  35.0 grs AA2520 wtd lot 9595 W/W cases CCI200 OAL 2.550" 	
								
14 Jan 2014 T =  50 °F						
								
Ave Vel =	2223			 	 			
Std Dev =	24			 	 			
ES =	53			 	 			
High =	2250			 	 			
Low =	2197			 	 			
N =	5				 			
		poor group, easy extraction 				


								
170 gr Hornady FBFP  31.5 grs IMR4064 wtd lot 2449 W/W cases CCI200 OAL 2.545" 	
								
14 Jan 2014 T =  50 °F						
								
Ave Vel =	1802			 	 			
Std Dev =	12			 	 			
ES =	24			 	 			
High =	1812		 	 	 			
Low =	1788		 	 	 			
N =	3				 			
								
	poor group						
								
170 gr Hornady FBFP  34.0 grs IMR4064 wtd lot 2449 W/W cases CCI200 OAL 2.550" 	
								
1 Feb 2014 T =  58 °F						
								
Ave Vel =	2031				 			
Std Dev =	20				 			
ES =	50				 			
High =	2064				 			
Low =	2014				 			
N =	5				 			
	                                 group 2.6 X 2.0				
								
170 gr Hornady FBFP  35.0 grs IMR4064 wtd lot 2449 W/W cases CCI200 OAL 2.550" 	
								
1 Feb 2014 T =  58 °F						
								
Ave Vel =	2104				 			
Std Dev =	30				 			
ES =	68				 			
High =	2122				 			
Low =	2054				 			
N =	5				 			
								
group size 2.6 X 2.0"							
								
								
170 gr Hornady FBFP  35.5 grs IMR4064 wtd lot 2449 W/W cases CCI200 OAL 2.550" 	
								
7 Feb 2014 T =  40 °F						
								
Ave Vel =	2103				 			
Std Dev =	20				 			
ES =	64				 			
High =	2128				 			
Low =	2064				 			
N =	10				 			
								
group size eight shots 3 3/8" X  1 7/8					
								
								
170 gr Hornady FBFP  36.0 grs IMR4064 wtd lot 2449 W/W cases CCI200 OAL 2.550" 	
								
7 Feb 2014 T =  40 °F						
								
Ave Vel =	2135				 			
Std Dev =	21				 			
ES =	67				 			
High =	2180				 			
Low =	2113				 			
N =	10				 			
								
group size  2 3/8" X 2 1/2"
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Last edited by Slamfire; July 20, 2014 at 04:23 PM.
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Old July 20, 2014, 04:58 PM   #15
totaldla
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When I was younger, I used Paco Kelly's loads - they were pretty stout. Later I saw some of them pressure tested and decided I didn't really want to run my 30-30 at 55Kpsi. Plus I grew up and discovered that I didn't gain a thing hot-rodding a levergun. So I'm pretty conservative nowadays.

There's a couple cool videos of guys shooting 600yds with 38-55 and 45-70 leverguns - showing that velocity isn't the answer.
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Old July 20, 2014, 07:20 PM   #16
William T. Watts
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Slamfire I was particularly interested in the IMR4064 loadings you fired, IMR4064 and IMR4895 are the two powders I intend to use to come up with a load that will combine good accuracy and comparable (or better) to factory velocity with 170gr Nosler Partitions. I hope to make a trip to our G&F range this coming week with my chrony and see how the new rifle groups. Thank you for the info you provided!! William

Last edited by William T. Watts; July 21, 2014 at 11:31 AM.
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Old July 21, 2014, 05:36 AM   #17
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If you keep your shots under 100 yards you don't need hot loads. Just good shot placement.
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Old July 21, 2014, 11:49 AM   #18
William T. Watts
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Pa-Joe while I understand and agree with your post I haven't tried to develop a load for the 30/30 in 40 years and especially with the powders available today. When I could afford a 30/06 and saw the way that round hammered deer I sold my 30/30 and haven't looked back. I have (2) 270 (2) 280Rem (2) 30/06 a 307Win that is a loaded down .308 case with a rim that will kill deer like they have been struck with lightening. I purchased the 30/30 to give me something to play with for this years deer hunt, I guess I got it because! Sometime this week it (30/30) will go to the shooting range with some Partitions loaded to play with! At my age (72) I stay busy working on my 2 1/4 acre lot that is mostly rock with a nice home in the middle, I need some play time and this is one of the ways I get it! William
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Old July 22, 2014, 05:04 PM   #19
William T. Watts
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2469FPS isn't a typo!

Today I used my chrony to ckeck the velocity of the Factory Federal 170 gr (3 boxes same lot number) The first round thru a clean cold barrel produced 2469 FPS, 2nd round 2261 FPS. I considered calling Federal and suppling the lot number of the three boxes I have but didn't. I shot (2) rounds with Partition bullets loaded previously in W-W cases 30.5gr of IMR4895 that produced 2108 & 2104FPS in that order. I loaded fifteen rounds in W-W cases CCI LR primers 5 each 31.7 gr of IMR4895 (velocity 2179FPS) 5 each 31.7 gr with IMR4064 (velocity 2174FPS) , 5 each with 29.2 gr of IMR3031 (velocity 2153FPS). I shot one round only out of each group of 5 rounds loaded, they were remarkably uniform and which ever of the five groups the best is what I will use this fall loaded as is!! The first factory Federal round shot baffles me, I cannot explain away the 208FPS difference between the first and 2nd factory round shot!! William
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Old July 23, 2014, 03:32 PM   #20
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Max pressures are 35,300 with IMR4064 and a 170. Going over max loads is a good way of damaging your son and the rifle.
Why are you concerned about pressures? The velocity is far more important.
With a different powder you can get higher pressures without bothering the rifle or the kid. IMR4320 and 8208 do it. None of 'em increase the velocity by more than 100 fps though.
Factory .30-30 isn't loaded down for any rifle. The cartridge started out with smokeless, not BP.
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Old July 23, 2014, 05:50 PM   #21
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"The 30-30 case is an old design with relatively thin walls. Attempting to load "hotter" would risk a dangerous case failure."

I will agree with that comment 100 percent. I shoot quite a few 30-30 rifles. Two M94's circa 1911 and 1981,two M64's circa 1938 and 1951, a straight stocked Marlin 336 and a bolt action Winchester M54. Killed my very first deer with that 1911 M94 thay belonged to my Great-grandfather. Started hand loading for it and a nedwer one I bought at a pawn shop in 1954. It went down the road a few years later but off and on throughout the years I've usually had a 30-30 of some kind hanging around. Early on due to limited finances I took up shooting cast bullets in my 30-30 and .38 Spl. revolver so did a few deer hunts with cast bullets. They worked just as well as jacketed and at speeds of 1950 to 2000 FPS. If memory serves I've taken 17 deer with the 30-30 and cast bullets. In much of the areas I've lived in lated shots were a bit too far for deer and besides being a bonified rifle loony there were too many others to play with.
I know some don't much care for some of what Ken Waters said but Ken was a very conservative handloader. I cannot call him wrong on that aspect. Me, and some others on here are a bit more adventurous when it come to handloading ammo. I'm experimenting with the 7x57 and .280 Remington these days, both cartidges not loaded to their full potential by the factories.
A full 200 FPS with a 140 gr. bullet over factory 7x57 ammo is I feel significant. I have one load for the .280 that is at 3010 FPS, a full 200 FPS over Remington ammo.
I do agree that even if one has a solid bolt action like my M54 Winchester, trong to hotrod the 30-30 is a big mistake.
Feel free to disagree. After all my body parts are safe. Are yours?
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Old July 23, 2014, 07:50 PM   #22
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Quote:
Paul B.
..trong to hotrod the 30-30 is a big mistake.
Feel free to disagree. After all my body parts are safe. Are yours?
Paul, I have overloaded to destruction dozens of different cartridges thousands of times and never been hurt.
But I have sought medical help from injuries in football, pole vaulting, motorcycle racing, tree topping, bar tending, and interfering with a pit bull attacking a child.
I am 63 and I get in bicycle races with other bike racers half my age nearly every day. That is not safe.

Life is not safe.
I am trying use my brain to see the future.
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Old July 23, 2014, 09:52 PM   #23
William T. Watts
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I shot the remaining 12 rounds loaded with IMR4064 (4), loaded with IMR4895 (4) and the remaining four rounds of IMR3031 29.2 grs. IMR4064 produced the smallest group with an average of 2168FPS for the four rounds. I shot an additional three rounds of the Federal factory that produced 2398FPS* 2269FPS and last round 2234FPS. In any event I emailed Federal and told them of my finding with their 30/30 ammo along with the lot number which I have 3 boxes of I hope they want back. None the less I was pleased with IMR4064 load, none of the loads I have tried exceeded any of the max load data on imrpowder.com website. Velocity of all their IMR powders were very uniform, nothing like what I experienced with the Federal factory ammo, the only round I pulled down used a ball powder that weighed exactly 34grs. The other disappointment is that IMR4895 powder didn't do as well as I thought it would. This powder has been one of my go to powders for a lot of years, on the other hand IMR4064 has been a very dependable powder for me for a lot of years and continues to do so.. My next trip to the range I will use new factory primed W-W case with 31.5grs of IMR4064 powder with 170gr Nosler Partitions. I have concluded it's not worth it to try to exceed 2200FPS with this round, I think some of the erratic velocity of the Federal ammunition may be a factor in the large group the ammunition produced today!! One last point the Federal ammunition erratic velocity and the two groups I attempted was what convinced me I should not attempt to exceed published load data with this round!! I've never damaged a rifle or hand gun, I've never pierced nor blown a primer nor do I intend to start. I have never suffered an injury loading ammunition nor firing any of my loaded ammunition!! William

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Old July 24, 2014, 02:32 PM   #24
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William, I do not think there is really that much margin of safety in the loading data for .30-30. Most of my .30-30 data is for "modern rifles."
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