Someone tried to abduct my little sister on Thursday - Page 2

navaho · December 19, 2000, 04:51 PM

"It is better to acquire a gun and carry it illegally than to be without one."

WELL..., if you believe that then what you are saying is that you believe X is more likely than Y, where:

X is: "the probability that you need to use a carry-gun in self defense", and where

Y is: "the probability that you will be prosecuted, convicted, sent to prison, and killed" (all because someone notices your gun in the store as you bend over to put a can of tuna fish into your shopping cart).

It could very well be that X is more likely than Y in your area. Unfortunately that's not true where I live. Which is bad, but also good. If you see what I mean.

Don Gwinn · December 19, 2000, 05:20 PM

The last word on illegally carrying a gun is that she chooses not to do so. I respect her decision. It's not an easy choice.

She was visited by two detectives today who brought about 20 mug shots. Most of the mug shots didn't even fit her description of the perp. Now, her description was not a vague one. She actually drew a sketch for the officer who took the report. When she asked why they were showing pictures of bald men and brown-eyed men when she told the detective that the perp is 28-30, 6' tall, thin, blue eyes, full head of brown hair with a nose that has a bump as if it's been broken before and crooks slightly to the left, they expressed surprise and showed her the report they were given.

The officer who took the report DIDN'T WRITE HER DESCRIPTION DOWN. Not only that, but someone apparently threw away the sketch, because it never got to the detectives! Without a description, they had simply pulled mug shots from arrests for similar incidents on that side of town. Now they say they've got two drawers of photos to go through. Any faith she had in the police is fading fast, and there wasn't much to begin with. Mine is being shaken pretty badly, to be honest. I'm not cop-bashing in general. I'm just saying that the Springfield city police department has a lot of problems if her case is any indication. I don't see how the responding officer expected anyone to solve this crime if he didn't write down a detailed physical description given by the victim and only eyewitness.

Thanks, everyone, for your concern. I'm going knife shopping.

**4V50 Gary** · December 19, 2000, 05:31 PM

Geez, what a lazy bozo that officer is.

I once took a report from a mute woman where I had her write the response to my questions. I then transposed this into transcript form and submitted it along with her handwritten original notes as evidence. It doesn't take that much more work and that officer is just LAZY. I hope the detectives have a talk with him and his sergeant puts it down in his evaluation.

Faith & preserverence.

slabsides · December 19, 2000, 10:57 PM

Sure, this is a firearms forum. But sometimes, as in Don's sister's case, acquiring and carrying a gun is just not practical or feasible.

Being attacked makes a woman undergo a real change in outlook. 'It can't happen to me' becomes 'It CAN happen to me!' She becomes aware of her own vulnerability. This is the time that she can see clearly and appreciate, perhaps for the first time, her need for some practical means of personal defense that doesn't rely on others for its effectiveness.

Some 'experts' recommend martial arts training for vulnerable women. There's a problem here. It takes so long to become fully skilled and conditioned. This requires dedication that most people are unable to maintain. And what if the next attacker knows 'all those tricks' and their counters? A short course in 'blows and targets' is not a bad idea for a woman, but isn't enough by itself to assure her safety, and it is irresponsible to tell her otherwise.

Defense sprays don't work on some people, and work poorly on many others.

Most felons are more afraid of being cut or stabbed than they are of being shot, and blades are cheap, easily obtained in enormous variety, and need little technique for effective defense use.

A small folding knife, an awl, an ice pick, even something as innocuous as a set of drafting compasses or ball point pen, or even a stout stick sharpened to a point, is enough, if used with fierce determination, to decisively deter the kind of attack that Don's sister faced. The commitment to provide oneself with the knowledge of means, and the determination to defend oneself with whatever weapon is at hand, is what separates survivors and victims. It is what truly 'arms' us against the evils of the world.

Her experience has made her afraid. She should refine her fear, converting it into constant, cool, alert awareness. Thus she will have the advantage in any future encounters. We hope they will never happen.

M1911 · December 20, 2000, 02:04 PM

You might have her try to find a Model Mugging group like:

http://www.impactboston.com/

Unlike martial arts, their techniques don't require years to learn and weren't designed for fit males. Many martial arts (particularly the "hard" varieties) focus on striking with the hands. Not a particularly viable technique for my 100 lb wife against even someone of my size (160 lb). Not enough upper body strength.

Men have a lot more upper body strength than most women. Women tend to have very strong hips and legs. Many attacks against women end up in a grappling fight on the ground. Model Mugging teaches ground fighting techniques to try to end the fight quickly. Their "attackers" use full body suits, so the training is done full force.

M1911

Blueyedog · December 20, 2000, 02:26 PM

Don, I'm so glad you're sister got away. It will take her a while to get her 'balance' back, but I'm sure with your help, and the rest of the family, she will be fine.

December 19, 2000, 05:20 PM	#27
Don Gwinn Staff Emeritus Join Date: March 9, 2000 Location: Virden, IL Posts: 5,917	The last word on illegally carrying a gun is that she chooses not to do so. I respect her decision. It's not an easy choice. She was visited by two detectives today who brought about 20 mug shots. Most of the mug shots didn't even fit her description of the perp. Now, her description was not a vague one. She actually drew a sketch for the officer who took the report. When she asked why they were showing pictures of bald men and brown-eyed men when she told the detective that the perp is 28-30, 6' tall, thin, blue eyes, full head of brown hair with a nose that has a bump as if it's been broken before and crooks slightly to the left, they expressed surprise and showed her the report they were given. The officer who took the report DIDN'T WRITE HER DESCRIPTION DOWN. Not only that, but someone apparently threw away the sketch, because it never got to the detectives! Without a description, they had simply pulled mug shots from arrests for similar incidents on that side of town. Now they say they've got two drawers of photos to go through. Any faith she had in the police is fading fast, and there wasn't much to begin with. Mine is being shaken pretty badly, to be honest. I'm not cop-bashing in general. I'm just saying that the Springfield city police department has a lot of problems if her case is any indication. I don't see how the responding officer expected anyone to solve this crime if he didn't write down a detailed physical description given by the victim and only eyewitness. Thanks, everyone, for your concern. I'm going knife shopping. __________________ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don Gwinn: Chicago Gun Rights Examiner

December 19, 2000, 05:31 PM	#28
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,832	Bozos on Patrol! Geez, what a lazy bozo that officer is. I once took a report from a mute woman where I had her write the response to my questions. I then transposed this into transcript form and submitted it along with her handwritten original notes as evidence. It doesn't take that much more work and that officer is just LAZY. I hope the detectives have a talk with him and his sergeant puts it down in his evaluation. Faith & preserverence.

December 19, 2000, 04:51 PM	#26
navaho Senior Member Join Date: November 28, 2000 Posts: 117	"It is better to acquire a gun and carry it illegally than to be without one." WELL..., if you believe that then what you are saying is that you believe X is more likely than Y, where: X is: "the probability that you need to use a carry-gun in self defense", and where Y is: "the probability that you will be prosecuted, convicted, sent to prison, and killed" (all because someone notices your gun in the store as you bend over to put a can of tuna fish into your shopping cart). It could very well be that X is more likely than Y in your area. Unfortunately that's not true where I live. Which is bad, but also good. If you see what I mean.

December 19, 2000, 10:57 PM	#29
slabsides Member In Memoriam Join Date: May 27, 1999 Location: Maine Posts: 614	Sure, this is a firearms forum. But sometimes, as in Don's sister's case, acquiring and carrying a gun is just not practical or feasible. Being attacked makes a woman undergo a real change in outlook. 'It can't happen to me' becomes 'It CAN happen to me!' She becomes aware of her own vulnerability. This is the time that she can see clearly and appreciate, perhaps for the first time, her need for some practical means of personal defense that doesn't rely on others for its effectiveness. Some 'experts' recommend martial arts training for vulnerable women. There's a problem here. It takes so long to become fully skilled and conditioned. This requires dedication that most people are unable to maintain. And what if the next attacker knows 'all those tricks' and their counters? A short course in 'blows and targets' is not a bad idea for a woman, but isn't enough by itself to assure her safety, and it is irresponsible to tell her otherwise. Defense sprays don't work on some people, and work poorly on many others. Most felons are more afraid of being cut or stabbed than they are of being shot, and blades are cheap, easily obtained in enormous variety, and need little technique for effective defense use. A small folding knife, an awl, an ice pick, even something as innocuous as a set of drafting compasses or ball point pen, or even a stout stick sharpened to a point, is enough, if used with fierce determination, to decisively deter the kind of attack that Don's sister faced. The commitment to provide oneself with the knowledge of means, and the determination to defend oneself with whatever weapon is at hand, is what separates survivors and victims. It is what truly 'arms' us against the evils of the world. Her experience has made her afraid. She should refine her fear, converting it into constant, cool, alert awareness. Thus she will have the advantage in any future encounters. We hope they will never happen.

December 20, 2000, 02:04 PM	#30
M1911 Senior Member Join Date: March 28, 2000 Posts: 4,055	You might have her try to find a Model Mugging group like: http://www.impactboston.com/ Unlike martial arts, their techniques don't require years to learn and weren't designed for fit males. Many martial arts (particularly the "hard" varieties) focus on striking with the hands. Not a particularly viable technique for my 100 lb wife against even someone of my size (160 lb). Not enough upper body strength. Men have a lot more upper body strength than most women. Women tend to have very strong hips and legs. Many attacks against women end up in a grappling fight on the ground. Model Mugging teaches ground fighting techniques to try to end the fight quickly. Their "attackers" use full body suits, so the training is done full force. M1911

December 20, 2000, 02:26 PM	#31
Blueyedog Senior Member Join Date: October 26, 1999 Location: Indiana Posts: 459	Don, I'm so glad you're sister got away. It will take her a while to get her 'balance' back, but I'm sure with your help, and the rest of the family, she will be fine.