CCW kept me from becoming a victim - Page 2

**OldMarksman** · January 13, 2009, 03:27 PM

If anyone happened to page down past Lee Lapin's post 22, I strongly recommend reading it carefully. I've bookmarked the link he posted to the teddytactical course.

http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...2_StudyDay.htm

I had not seen that before. I can assure you that I will be stdying it.

Here's another link that I find helpful:

http://www.useofforce.us/

In this one, the author takes the principles of ability, opportunity, and jeopardy and adds preclusion: the principle that the actor may not resort to deadly force unless he has no other option reasonably available.

That's leads directly to Skip Gochenour's ADEE- avoid, de-escalate/disengage, escape and evade if possible. That was taught in my CCW course. As Lee says, unless you are sworn to enforce the law, that's always your better course. And unless your state has a stand-your-ground law or your actions are covered by a castle law, it is your legal obligation to do so (unless there are extenuating circumstances) for a defense of justifiability to have much chance of succeeding.

Here's another good one written for defense attorneys:

http://www.nacdl.org/public.nsf/01c1...ocument&Click=

The author also refers to the concept of preclusion when the actions involve civilians.

I strongly recommend that people bookmark and study these materials.

In Lee's post I've found something I really like: "A superior gunman is best defined as one who uses his superior judgment in order to keep himself out of situations that would require the use of his superior skills."

I always try to avoid refueling in questionable places or when there are few people around.

B.N.Real · January 14, 2009, 07:13 AM

Three bad guys and you caused all of them to realize you were going to be someone they had to EARN their rewards from.

Criminals are by and large lazy assed people.

If they think they will have to work to get your money,they will go elsewhere.

Very glad you did'nt have to shoot them.

As far as pepper spray goes,in this case,that would have likely only caused one of them,if they had it,to draw a handgun on you.

And most pepper sprays only work up to fifteen feet on a windless day.

Add wind and the range can get to where you are spraying you and the bad guy(s).

I'm looking into pepper foam for non lethal defense.

You did exactly right.

One more step from the bad guy and I'm sure you would have put him down.

Wagonman · January 14, 2009, 01:06 PM

You done good, good SA good reactions, the best thing you did was call the police afterward.----get the correct version on the record. " We just asked this guy for directions and he pulled a gun on us"

+1 on Supergas advice DO NOT TALK TO POLICE AFTER A SHOOTING W/O A LAWYER!!

Dorcas · January 20, 2009, 06:12 PM

Quote:

RednockRiot, read this book if you have not already. It is by Dave Workman of D&D Gunleather. Its specifically about WA state gun rights and responsibilities. He goes into a good discussion about use of force, requirements, etc.

Washington State Gun Rights And Responsibilities by Dave Workman

The cost of this book is minimal, and well worth it.

That's a big +1. This book should be requried reading for anyone with a WA CPL.

PhoenixConflagration · January 20, 2009, 06:52 PM

Quote:

Basically they were saying that you can't just draw to scare some one off, you only draw when you have to fire. I don't agree.

In Fl, as I was taught in the class, in order to draw your weapon legally, you must have the same justification as you need to actually shoot them. I interpret this to mean that, while scaring off an aggressor is better than having to shoot them, you can't do so unless your threatened with death/bodily harm, etc.

The OP did just great. By all means scare off an aggressor. Just don't think you can get away with that easier than actually using lethal force. You will be charged if you don't have the same justifications required to shoot.

Only S&W and Me · January 20, 2009, 07:30 PM

What I want to understand is if you draw on someone for a good reason because you felt the life threat, why would this be an issue....what is the BG going to do, call the cops on you? Highly unlikely..... and go ahead and let him!

KUHIO · January 20, 2009, 08:15 PM

I think you handle yourself very well!

The ONE thing I would add is to tell the BG/s that you will call 911 (and certainly CALL if you're able).

"Can't help you... stop, I don't know you... I'm going to call 911"

And this can be done while preparing to draw your weapon. I know this is easy to forget in the heat of a moment, but it could really help in showing you've all exhausted your options in the event you face litigation.

Redneck_Riot · January 22, 2009, 02:47 AM

Thank you all for your great comments and insights, this situation is one I do not wish to physicaly revisit it was very un-nerving and though I feel that my actions were indeed justified I cannot help but second guess those actions especially when the legal consequences are weighed into the equation.

I have since posting signed up for a local use of force class, and have obtained a copy of Dave Workman's book. This is truly good information, and is first rate. The suggestion to speak with a good reccommended criminal defence attorney was a great addition and I will be definately scheduling an appointment. I do still feel that my government needs to clarify the use of force guideline before issuing a CCW it is quite close to en-trapment to issue such a licence without the proper information in its use being stated.

Powderman · January 22, 2009, 09:09 AM

Redneck Riot:

Where was this gas station?

Just curious, might have some insight for you.

Redneck_Riot · January 22, 2009, 01:04 PM

downtown tacoma, near the pierce county jail I was doing some work inside the jail on the night shift

Socrates · January 22, 2009, 02:43 PM

RR:

The problem is you have to convince 12 jurors, in one of the safest places in the world, a court room, or deliberation room, that are well fed, warm and cozy, about the situation you found yourself in, and, the threat of those 3 nice men, perfectly shaved, in beautiful suits, that are the defendants, or witnesses...

You have no evidence, other then your word, of what happened. I went through this thread, and, it sounded to me that the Devil was there, and, his friends, drugs and alcohol. I have watched sober people go insane when we had handcuffs on them, but, it's not as common as with the Devils friends present. I suppose the dead body could testify, when they find .29 alcohol, and high as a kite on meth, and, it sounds to me like that's what you were dealing with.

That said, it's hard to get jurors to feel the terror of being surrounded by
large, drunk or high large men, in a comfy courtroom.

Orion has a good point on the pepper spray limit. I know if I'm fueling my car at 2 am, I have pepper spray, but, if I was in a bad area, I might have a can of bear spray as well.

Your thread reminds me of the same problem I was facing in Oakland, going into an area that was semi-rioting, and, what if you get caught in it, as a target? The riot is about a white officer shooting a helpless black man on the ground. Can you imagine the press if you started shooting rioters that are throwing rocks at you and your car?

No easy answers for this one, but, a non-permanent form of protection comes to mind. Taser comes to mind for the simple reason you could hit one guy, pull the gun as well.

If it had been me, I would have dumped the gas, jumped in the truck, and took off, if I could make it, that is...

doc540 · January 22, 2009, 04:51 PM

Might not have been a bad idea when the two began advancing across the street toward you to have raised your cellphone to your ear, speed-dialed 911, and said loudly, "STAY BACK, I HAVE CALLED THE POLICE!" and proceeded to give the dispatcher your location and a play-by-play.

And all of this while you kept a hand on your weapon until it became necessary to drop the phone and draw it.

Just a thought.

I deterred a road rager by doing something similar with my phone.

scorpion_tyr · January 22, 2009, 07:07 PM

You were approached by suspicious people, and more than one of them. They made it obvious that they weren't there to help you, so that only leaves the option that they were up to no good.

There were more than one of them. I've always considered multiple BG's as a threat to my life. One person can be bad enough. Two is double the trouble. They can take you down, disarm you, and defeat any resistance you put up, a lot easier.

You were justified in putting your hand on your weapon. That should have stopped them in their tracks. They didn't so you drew, again justified.

It is my belief that once a deadly weapon has been added to the situation, either by the BG or the Good Guy, any escalation of the situation should be considered lethal force.

If I have my weapon in a visible holster, I make a concealed holster visible, or I draw my weapon to make it even more visible, especially if I take aim at the BG(s), and they keep coming (escalating the situation) I can only assume they mean to do me great bodily harm or worse. The very least they will attempt to do will be to disarm me. Now they have a gun, and lethal force would certainly be justified, except I have to get to my BUG, and that's if I have one.

You gave plenty of verbal warnings. They ignored you, so by now there is no doubt that they are up to no good.

I'm assuming by your post that you never took aim at the BG. Even if you had, IMO, you would have been justified.

If I draw my weapon, take aim, and the BG is still coming, I'll pull the trigger. If he has a weapon I'll probably pull the trigger a little sooner, but I'll still do it. I'd be willing to risk the legal stuff to keep myself alive. I don't want my kids to get to know their father through a plexi-glass window, but I would rather have that then them not have me at all.

All of this is just my opinion, not meant to be any form of legal advise.

hecate · January 22, 2009, 07:21 PM

LawOfficer.com has a lot of very good articles available online. From Understanding the Objectively Reasonable Standard - Self Defense:

Quote:

Then there is the well-settled issue of self defense . Every person has an absolute right to self-defense. In the case at hand, the two police officers had not surrendered their individual right to self defense as a consequence of their professional occupation. The rules of self defense are clear:

One need not be harmed before acting.
One need not calculate and prioritize a hierarchy of alternatives.
One need not determine the underlying intent, apparent motivation or potential impairment of the attacker.
And if you are a law enforcement officer engaged in legitimate police activities, you need not retreat from your duty or endure unreasonable risks to your safety.

You don't have to be in a "bad neighborhood" to have something happen when it's late. I had an unpleasant experience one night at a well-lit gas station in a "nice" area. It went to firing-grip-on-concealed-gun-in-holster-out-of-bad-guy's-view before he had second thoughts about his choice of a potential victim and left.

stephen426 · January 23, 2009, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by doc540

Might not have been a bad idea when the two began advancing across the street toward you to have raised your cellphone to your ear, speed-dialed 911, and said loudly, "STAY BACK, I HAVE CALLED THE POLICE!" and proceeded to give the dispatcher your location and a play-by-play.

And all of this while you kept a hand on your weapon until it became necessary to drop the phone and draw it.

Just a thought.

I deterred a road rager by doing something similar with my phone.

doc540,

I'm sorry, but if a handgun fails to deter these guys, do you really think a cell phone will do anything? What is the best response time in your neighborhood? I live in South Florida and my office is in Coral Gables. That is one of the nicest parts of Miami. Police response time is very fast there and they usually respond in less than 5 minutes (even non-emergencies). I doubt that Redneck_Riot would want to tango with those guys for 5 minutes or even 1 minute. They could have easily beat or killed him and robbed him before the cops ever showed up.

Whe it comes to a potentially life or death situation, you respond with the level of force that is necessary to end the attack and save your life. I'm glad that Redneck_Riot didn't have to shoot anyone that night, but his actions did prevent a crime, and possibly saved his life. Save the cell phone to call 911 afterwards.

oldkim · January 23, 2009, 02:50 PM

Quoted from Redneck Riot.... "I have since posting signed up for a local use of force class, and have obtained a copy of Dave Workman's book. This is truly good information, and is first rate. The suggestion to speak with a good reccommended criminal defence attorney was a great addition and I will be definately scheduling an appointment. I do still feel that my government needs to clarify the use of force guideline before issuing a CCW it is quite close to en-trapment to issue such a licence without the proper information in its use being stated."

Totally Disagree:

I have to disagree that Washington has to mandate you to take a course before issuing a CCW. You as the carrier need to take some responsibility and find out what the laws are. We don't need more laws, especially for the law abiding good folks in Washington. We do need to enforce the laws for the ones that don't follow them.

I'm glad you had this event happen to wake you up and see that you do need more work to understand the true legalities of carrying a gun. It's not play time. It's real life and just like life.... for a action there is a reaction or responsibility that comes with it.

CCW should not be taken lightly and you really do need to figure things out before you commit to such a responsibility.

Heck, I say that with being a parent. Kids do not come with "manuals" either but you see all these idiots having kids.

Take the class, read Dave Workman's book (I have a signed copy). He has great info!

You did good. You were placed in a tough situation and you reacted. Hindsight? My best response to that is... would you have gotten gas there in the first place?

You can't avoid everything but you can control what you do (to a limited degree). Learn from this and move on.

Bottomline: No one got hurt. You know that simply having a CCW means much more. Be more vocal and assert yourself and remember using your pistol is the last resort but when you have to use it - use it.

Remember that guy at the Tacoma Mall shooting a few years ago. He had his gun out and re-holstered for this punk that was shooting people with his AK. He ended up getting shot himself and in a wheelchair now.

Socrates · January 23, 2009, 03:47 PM

I can't help but see the irony here. One of the problems with our society being unarmed is it forces law abiding citizens to restrict their travel rights. Can't go there, because you aren't armed, and, it's likely the bad guys aren't going to follow the CCW laws.

Now, even if you have a CCW, we fear for legal repercussions, again costing us OUR freedom to legally travel, through or to places, and, limits our time line in which to do it.

At some point, wouldn't it be nice if the CROOKS, ROBBERS, AND BAD GUYS, had to fear being shot, and, that would keep them away from places, rather then law abiding citizens?

NAKing · January 23, 2009, 04:11 PM

Has anybody here actually been hit with commercially available pepper spray? I have been. No, I wasn't stealing a little old ladies purse or doing anything nefarious. Anyway, the stuff really doesn't do a very good job. I'd never carry any.

Socrates · January 23, 2009, 05:23 PM

Wonder if bear spray would be better? Perhaps the very fact you are carrying something else, other then deadly force, might be a good point in court, when you are trying to convince those 12 liberal jury members that you aren't a gun nut...

OuTcAsT · January 24, 2009, 11:14 AM

I was in a similar circumstance just last weekend, picked up my girlfrend from her apt. to go to dinner. We stopped at the corner store so she could go in for a pack of smokes, I was parked 20-25 feet before the door, waiting in the car.
Just as she goes in, two scruffy looking guys, who are obviously together, come out of the store, one stops just to the right of the exit door and leans against the wall, (this puts him between my vehicle and my soon to be exiting GF) His partner walks behind my car, and leans against the wall at the corner of the building just beyond a soda machine, but still partially in my view using my mirror.

"This is bad juju" I think to myself, and I draw my weapon and lay it in my lap. The one by the exit begins to approach my window, explaining that he and his friend "need beer money", then the training kicks in... I pointed my weapon at him and told him to stop where he was, he complied and put his hands up, I then told him to move away toward the street, and have his partner do the same, he yelled to his buddy to "Run" and they both ran/staggered away toward the street. About 10 seconds later a police car pulls up...(GF had seen my drawn weapon and called 911 from inside the store on cell) I (carefully) secured my weapon, laid it on my seat, put my hands on the dash, and waited for the officer to come over and ask me to exit the vehicle. I did so, and explained the situation as it had happened. Another patrol car pulls up and I am asked to identify the two men in the back seat, it was the two "scruffy" guys. Seems they had stolen a purse from a lady at the gas station across the street just before I pulled up. They go to jail, and the officers and I talk 1911's for a few minutes. hope I never have to do that again. Point is...Situational awareness is your most important weapon.

#18indycolts · January 24, 2009, 11:35 AM

quote:About 10 seconds later a police car pulls up...

thats super quick for police to arrive...just curious, U stated the 2 guys were acting suspicious, but at what point did you feel your life was threatened? When he approached your car to ask u for money? Having your gun drawn is one thing, but having it aimed at him is another, don't ya think?

OuTcAsT · January 24, 2009, 12:18 PM

Quote:

quote:About 10 seconds later a police car pulls up...

thats super quick for police to arrive..

Just to clarify a bit, the street I was on is the main street in this town, and the police precinct is less than 2 miles away, you also might note this...

Quote:

...(GF had seen my drawn weapon and called 911 from inside the store on cell)

and this...

Quote:

Seems they had stolen a purse from a lady at the gas station across the street just before I pulled up.

They were already in route to the other call, and had been given a description of the guys on the phone by the people across the street.

Quote:

U stated the 2 guys were acting suspicious, but at what point did you feel your life was threatened? When he approached your car to ask u for money?

OK put yourself in my shoes, GF goes into store, two "suspicious" guys come out, one stops by the door, the other makes an attempt to (IMO) "Hide" from me behind a soda machine. This could be an attempt to "flank" me, suspicious enough for me to place my weapon in my lap and keep an eye out. Next, the guy by the door starts in my obvious direction, could he be the "distraction" while the other guy tries to catch me by surprise? Then figure in the GF who will be exiting the store BETWEEN the two guys, and with no knowledge that they are there. The math in my head said it was time to take action. either of us could have been a target, and I saw 2 threats and reacted.

Quote:

Having your gun drawn is one thing, but having it aimed at him is another, don't ya think?

Absolutely! But with 2 threats..one in front, and one behind, I was not going to simply yell at him, I felt that either Me or my GF was going to be a target, turns out I was likely right. The police thought I had reacted correctly.

Could it have been handled differently? possibly, but you don't have the luxury of time when things are un-folding in seconds, you either react, or you don't.

#18indycolts · January 24, 2009, 12:25 PM

I wasn't giving you flack, just wanted some clarification, thats all. I'm not familiar with TN laws, but here in Indpls if someone wants to press charges on me for pointing my gun at them when I can't prove that my life was in danger (my word against the BG) then I could go to court and lose my CCP and probably have some sort of "assault" charge on my virgin clean record. I think u what u did was fine, I'd do the same for my wife..just not pointed it at him thats all.

OuTcAsT · January 24, 2009, 01:21 PM

Quote:

just not pointed it at him thats all

Fair enough, had I been outside the vehicle I probably would have drawn and stayed at "low ready" while telling him to back off, but I was inside, he, nor his partner could see my firearm in my lap. My thought was to let the guy in front KNOW I was not merely suggesting that he shove off.

TN law could have allowed him, or LE to press ADW charges, but that was the last thing I was worried about at the moment.

I have anaylized this to death this week, and just can't seem to find a different way to have handled it. I did not have time or distance on my side to exit the vehicle, May have pointed too quickly, but I just don't see another way.

GF should definately quit smoking..

January 22, 2009, 07:07 PM	#38
scorpion_tyr Senior Member Join Date: November 10, 2008 Location: East Texas Posts: 1,326	You were approached by suspicious people, and more than one of them. They made it obvious that they weren't there to help you, so that only leaves the option that they were up to no good. There were more than one of them. I've always considered multiple BG's as a threat to my life. One person can be bad enough. Two is double the trouble. They can take you down, disarm you, and defeat any resistance you put up, a lot easier. You were justified in putting your hand on your weapon. That should have stopped them in their tracks. They didn't so you drew, again justified. It is my belief that once a deadly weapon has been added to the situation, either by the BG or the Good Guy, any escalation of the situation should be considered lethal force. If I have my weapon in a visible holster, I make a concealed holster visible, or I draw my weapon to make it even more visible, especially if I take aim at the BG(s), and they keep coming (escalating the situation) I can only assume they mean to do me great bodily harm or worse. The very least they will attempt to do will be to disarm me. Now they have a gun, and lethal force would certainly be justified, except I have to get to my BUG, and that's if I have one. You gave plenty of verbal warnings. They ignored you, so by now there is no doubt that they are up to no good. I'm assuming by your post that you never took aim at the BG. Even if you had, IMO, you would have been justified. If I draw my weapon, take aim, and the BG is still coming, I'll pull the trigger. If he has a weapon I'll probably pull the trigger a little sooner, but I'll still do it. I'd be willing to risk the legal stuff to keep myself alive. I don't want my kids to get to know their father through a plexi-glass window, but I would rather have that then them not have me at all. All of this is just my opinion, not meant to be any form of legal advise. __________________ “Nature intended me for the tranquil pursuits of science, by rendering them my supreme delight.” - Thomas Jefferson

January 23, 2009, 02:50 PM	#41
oldkim Senior Member Join Date: December 5, 2008 Location: Renton, WA Posts: 462	No more laws for law abiding citizens Quoted from Redneck Riot.... "I have since posting signed up for a local use of force class, and have obtained a copy of Dave Workman's book. This is truly good information, and is first rate. The suggestion to speak with a good reccommended criminal defence attorney was a great addition and I will be definately scheduling an appointment. I do still feel that my government needs to clarify the use of force guideline before issuing a CCW it is quite close to en-trapment to issue such a licence without the proper information in its use being stated." Totally Disagree: I have to disagree that Washington has to mandate you to take a course before issuing a CCW. You as the carrier need to take some responsibility and find out what the laws are. We don't need more laws, especially for the law abiding good folks in Washington. We do need to enforce the laws for the ones that don't follow them. I'm glad you had this event happen to wake you up and see that you do need more work to understand the true legalities of carrying a gun. It's not play time. It's real life and just like life.... for a action there is a reaction or responsibility that comes with it. CCW should not be taken lightly and you really do need to figure things out before you commit to such a responsibility. Heck, I say that with being a parent. Kids do not come with "manuals" either but you see all these idiots having kids. Take the class, read Dave Workman's book (I have a signed copy). He has great info! You did good. You were placed in a tough situation and you reacted. Hindsight? My best response to that is... would you have gotten gas there in the first place? You can't avoid everything but you can control what you do (to a limited degree). Learn from this and move on. Bottomline: No one got hurt. You know that simply having a CCW means much more. Be more vocal and assert yourself and remember using your pistol is the last resort but when you have to use it - use it. Remember that guy at the Tacoma Mall shooting a few years ago. He had his gun out and re-holstered for this punk that was shooting people with his AK. He ended up getting shot himself and in a wheelchair now. __________________ "Shoot Safetly, Shoot Often and Share Your Sport." Jim Scoutten, Shooting USA Check out my new website: www.shootonthemove.org

January 24, 2009, 11:14 AM	#45
OuTcAsT Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 2006 Location: Eastern, TN Posts: 1,236	I was in a similar circumstance just last weekend, picked up my girlfrend from her apt. to go to dinner. We stopped at the corner store so she could go in for a pack of smokes, I was parked 20-25 feet before the door, waiting in the car. Just as she goes in, two scruffy looking guys, who are obviously together, come out of the store, one stops just to the right of the exit door and leans against the wall, (this puts him between my vehicle and my soon to be exiting GF) His partner walks behind my car, and leans against the wall at the corner of the building just beyond a soda machine, but still partially in my view using my mirror. "This is bad juju" I think to myself, and I draw my weapon and lay it in my lap. The one by the exit begins to approach my window, explaining that he and his friend "need beer money", then the training kicks in... I pointed my weapon at him and told him to stop where he was, he complied and put his hands up, I then told him to move away toward the street, and have his partner do the same, he yelled to his buddy to "Run" and they both ran/staggered away toward the street. About 10 seconds later a police car pulls up...(GF had seen my drawn weapon and called 911 from inside the store on cell) I (carefully) secured my weapon, laid it on my seat, put my hands on the dash, and waited for the officer to come over and ask me to exit the vehicle. I did so, and explained the situation as it had happened. Another patrol car pulls up and I am asked to identify the two men in the back seat, it was the two "scruffy" guys. Seems they had stolen a purse from a lady at the gas station across the street just before I pulled up. They go to jail, and the officers and I talk 1911's for a few minutes. hope I never have to do that again. Point is...Situational awareness is your most important weapon. __________________ WITHOUT Freedom of Thought, there can be no such Thing as Wisdom; and no such Thing as public Liberty, without Freedom of Speech. Silence Dogood *Does not morality imply the last clear chance?* - WildAlaska - Last edited by OuTcAsT; January 24, 2009 at 11:21 AM. Reason: spelling/etc.

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January 13, 2009, 03:27 PM	#26
OldMarksman Staff Join Date: June 8, 2008 Posts: 4,022	If anyone happened to page down past Lee Lapin's post 22, I strongly recommend reading it carefully. I've bookmarked the link he posted to the teddytactical course. http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...2_StudyDay.htm I had not seen that before. I can assure you that I will be stdying it. Here's another link that I find helpful: http://www.useofforce.us/ In this one, the author takes the principles of ability, opportunity, and jeopardy and adds preclusion: the principle that the actor may not resort to deadly force unless he has no other option reasonably available. That's leads directly to Skip Gochenour's ADEE- avoid, de-escalate/disengage, escape and evade if possible. That was taught in my CCW course. As Lee says, unless you are sworn to enforce the law, that's always your better course. And unless your state has a stand-your-ground law or your actions are covered by a castle law, it is your legal obligation to do so (unless there are extenuating circumstances) for a defense of justifiability to have much chance of succeeding. Here's another good one written for defense attorneys: http://www.nacdl.org/public.nsf/01c1...ocument&Click= The author also refers to the concept of preclusion when the actions involve civilians. I strongly recommend that people bookmark and study these materials. In Lee's post I've found something I really like: "A superior gunman is best defined as one who uses his superior judgment in order to keep himself out of situations that would require the use of his superior skills." I always try to avoid refueling in questionable places or when there are few people around.

January 14, 2009, 07:13 AM	#27
B.N.Real Senior Member Join Date: February 22, 2008 Posts: 4,092	Three bad guys and you caused all of them to realize you were going to be someone they had to EARN their rewards from. Criminals are by and large lazy assed people. If they think they will have to work to get your money,they will go elsewhere. Very glad you did'nt have to shoot them. As far as pepper spray goes,in this case,that would have likely only caused one of them,if they had it,to draw a handgun on you. And most pepper sprays only work up to fifteen feet on a windless day. Add wind and the range can get to where you are spraying you and the bad guy(s). I'm looking into pepper foam for non lethal defense. You did exactly right. One more step from the bad guy and I'm sure you would have put him down.

January 14, 2009, 01:06 PM	#28
Wagonman Senior Member Join Date: September 11, 2008 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 1,014	You done good, good SA good reactions, the best thing you did was call the police afterward.----get the correct version on the record. " We just asked this guy for directions and he pulled a gun on us" +1 on Supergas advice DO NOT TALK TO POLICE AFTER A SHOOTING W/O A LAWYER!!

January 20, 2009, 07:30 PM	#31
Only S&W and Me Member Join Date: December 24, 2008 Location: Rochester Hills, Michigan Posts: 67	What I want to understand is if you draw on someone for a good reason because you felt the life threat, why would this be an issue....what is the BG going to do, call the cops on you? Highly unlikely..... and go ahead and let him!

January 20, 2009, 08:15 PM	#32
KUHIO Senior Member Join Date: October 19, 2008 Location: North Carolina Posts: 250	I think you handle yourself very well! The ONE thing I would add is to tell the BG/s that you will call 911 (and certainly CALL if you're able). "Can't help you... stop, I don't know you... I'm going to call 911" And this can be done while preparing to draw your weapon. I know this is easy to forget in the heat of a moment, but it could really help in showing you've all exhausted your options in the event you face litigation.

January 22, 2009, 02:47 AM	#33
Redneck_Riot Member Join Date: December 15, 2006 Posts: 80	Thank you all for your great comments and insights, this situation is one I do not wish to physicaly revisit it was very un-nerving and though I feel that my actions were indeed justified I cannot help but second guess those actions especially when the legal consequences are weighed into the equation. I have since posting signed up for a local use of force class, and have obtained a copy of Dave Workman's book. This is truly good information, and is first rate. The suggestion to speak with a good reccommended criminal defence attorney was a great addition and I will be definately scheduling an appointment. I do still feel that my government needs to clarify the use of force guideline before issuing a CCW it is quite close to en-trapment to issue such a licence without the proper information in its use being stated.

January 22, 2009, 09:09 AM	#34
Powderman Senior Member Join Date: September 7, 2001 Location: Washington State Posts: 2,166	Redneck Riot: Where was this gas station? Just curious, might have some insight for you.

January 22, 2009, 01:04 PM	#35
Redneck_Riot Member Join Date: December 15, 2006 Posts: 80	downtown tacoma, near the pierce county jail I was doing some work inside the jail on the night shift

January 22, 2009, 02:43 PM	#36
Socrates Junior member Join Date: January 5, 2005 Location: East Bay NorCal, People's Republik of Kalifornia Posts: 5,866	RR: The problem is you have to convince 12 jurors, in one of the safest places in the world, a court room, or deliberation room, that are well fed, warm and cozy, about the situation you found yourself in, and, the threat of those 3 nice men, perfectly shaved, in beautiful suits, that are the defendants, or witnesses... You have no evidence, other then your word, of what happened. I went through this thread, and, it sounded to me that the Devil was there, and, his friends, drugs and alcohol. I have watched sober people go insane when we had handcuffs on them, but, it's not as common as with the Devils friends present. I suppose the dead body could testify, when they find .29 alcohol, and high as a kite on meth, and, it sounds to me like that's what you were dealing with. That said, it's hard to get jurors to feel the terror of being surrounded by large, drunk or high large men, in a comfy courtroom. Orion has a good point on the pepper spray limit. I know if I'm fueling my car at 2 am, I have pepper spray, but, if I was in a bad area, I might have a can of bear spray as well. Your thread reminds me of the same problem I was facing in Oakland, going into an area that was semi-rioting, and, what if you get caught in it, as a target? The riot is about a white officer shooting a helpless black man on the ground. Can you imagine the press if you started shooting rioters that are throwing rocks at you and your car? No easy answers for this one, but, a non-permanent form of protection comes to mind. Taser comes to mind for the simple reason you could hit one guy, pull the gun as well. If it had been me, I would have dumped the gas, jumped in the truck, and took off, if I could make it, that is...

January 22, 2009, 04:51 PM	#37
doc540 Senior Member Join Date: December 30, 2007 Location: Texas Posts: 1,430	Might not have been a bad idea when the two began advancing across the street toward you to have raised your cellphone to your ear, speed-dialed 911, and said loudly, "STAY BACK, I HAVE CALLED THE POLICE!" and proceeded to give the dispatcher your location and a play-by-play. And all of this while you kept a hand on your weapon until it became necessary to drop the phone and draw it. Just a thought. I deterred a road rager by doing something similar with my phone.

January 23, 2009, 03:47 PM	#42
Socrates Junior member Join Date: January 5, 2005 Location: East Bay NorCal, People's Republik of Kalifornia Posts: 5,866	I can't help but see the irony here. One of the problems with our society being unarmed is it forces law abiding citizens to restrict their travel rights. Can't go there, because you aren't armed, and, it's likely the bad guys aren't going to follow the CCW laws. Now, even if you have a CCW, we fear for legal repercussions, again costing us OUR freedom to legally travel, through or to places, and, limits our time line in which to do it. At some point, wouldn't it be nice if the CROOKS, ROBBERS, AND BAD GUYS, had to fear being shot, and, that would keep them away from places, rather then law abiding citizens?

January 23, 2009, 04:11 PM	#43
NAKing Senior Member Join Date: August 12, 2008 Posts: 304	Has anybody here actually been hit with commercially available pepper spray? I have been. No, I wasn't stealing a little old ladies purse or doing anything nefarious. Anyway, the stuff really doesn't do a very good job. I'd never carry any.

January 23, 2009, 05:23 PM	#44
Socrates Junior member Join Date: January 5, 2005 Location: East Bay NorCal, People's Republik of Kalifornia Posts: 5,866	Wonder if bear spray would be better? Perhaps the very fact you are carrying something else, other then deadly force, might be a good point in court, when you are trying to convince those 12 liberal jury members that you aren't a gun nut...

January 24, 2009, 11:35 AM	#46
#18indycolts Junior member Join Date: January 3, 2006 Location: Indpls Posts: 1,159	quote:About 10 seconds later a police car pulls up... thats super quick for police to arrive...just curious, U stated the 2 guys were acting suspicious, but at what point did you feel your life was threatened? When he approached your car to ask u for money? Having your gun drawn is one thing, but having it aimed at him is another, don't ya think?

January 24, 2009, 12:25 PM	#48
#18indycolts Junior member Join Date: January 3, 2006 Location: Indpls Posts: 1,159	I wasn't giving you flack, just wanted some clarification, thats all. I'm not familiar with TN laws, but here in Indpls if someone wants to press charges on me for pointing my gun at them when I can't prove that my life was in danger (my word against the BG) then I could go to court and lose my CCP and probably have some sort of "assault" charge on my virgin clean record. I think u what u did was fine, I'd do the same for my wife..just not pointed it at him thats all.