Why 8 bullets simply isnt enough...

[nate45]

Originally Posted by JohnH1963

Remember Detective Colombo? He never packed a weapon and arrested his suspects without the need for violence or pistols.

I noticed this post in this thread that was authored by the OP.

I don't believe Colombo would need multiple rounds to stop a gang of meth heads, he could easily out wit them.

Colombo also made me think of Marshall McCloud he managed to deal with all sorts of miscreants with his Single Action Army, on the mean streets of New York City no less.

What about Starsky and Hutch, did they need high capacity handguns? I don't think so. You should watch all the old episodes and I'm certain you will gain the 'tactical' information for dealing with gang members you require. Maybe you could develop your own local confidential informant, much like Huggy Bear and he could keep you informed on the gangs movement and plans.

You should also consider the marksmanship skills displayed from men like Steve McGarrett, Jim Rockford and Manix, did the need more than a snub-nose .38 to solve 'tactical' situations? I don't think so.

If you still really feel you still need to learn 'tactical' suppressive fire techniques, might I suggest the A-team, they were masters at it. Never even had to kill anyone either, so great was their 'tactical' suppressive fire ability.

[Recon7]

I pity the fool who carries only 8 rounds

[Brian Pfleuger]

...high crime rural countryside.

LOL. Yeeessss. Those words "high crime" and "rural" go together a lot. What, with all the Bloods and Crips buyin' up the cheap farm houses now with real estate so low and all. Please.

[NRAhab]

I know this is waaaaaaay back in the thread, but I had to address this.

Kern County, California has a gang unit that is indeed very active. Their gang units can be seen on the streets of Bakersfield. You wouldnt believe places like Fresno, Bakersfield or Salinas have gangs. These are rural areas and very spread out where you can drive for many miles and not see a soul.

Fresno, Bakersfield, and Salinas are hardly what you'd call "rural" areas. Fresno is the county seat of Fresno county (not in Kern County) and has a population of 900k. Bakersfield (which is located in Kern County) has a metro population of 700k. Salinas is the county seat of Monterey County (also not Kern County) and has a population of 150k, which while not huge, hardly qualifies as "rural". While these areas do have rural areas around them, it's not a surprise to anyone who's familiar wit California that a city like Bakertucky and Fresno would have gang problems, mostly because they're in relatively well populated areas with the right demographics for high crime.

[VonFireball]

And if you will just stfu on rural politics , or provide any credibility then its no harm no fowel .

Credibility?

Cass county (pop approx 27,000):

"May township (Cass county), MN, violent crime, on a scale from 1 (low crime) to 10, is 7. Violent crime is composed of four offenses: murder and nonnegligent manslaughter, forcible rape, robbery, and aggravated assault. The US average is 3."

http://www.bestplaces.net/city/May_t...Minnesota.aspx

Would you like some more? Or do you want me to let you live on in a fantasy land?

http://www.fedstats.gov/mapstats/cri...nty/27021.html

Rape, auto theft, and burglaries are all way up above the average to the point of being commonplace.

http://www.clrsearch.com/RSS/Demogra...ime_Statistics

These areas have crime rates much higher, almost double the national average in many cases.

Those words "high crime" and "rural" go together a lot

Yeah, some places they sure seem to, don't they?

Now that I learned you something........

[Wiskey_33]

May township population is estimated at 872. I wonder how many bars are in May township?

[VonFireball]

May township population is estimated at 872. I wonder how many bars are in May township?

Not that many actually, though, alcohol is a massive problem there.

[Brian Pfleuger]

Credibility?

Cass county (pop approx 27,000):

This place is a statistical aberration.


The numbers are also proportional to the population and that site gives no indication (that I see) of the period those numbers are from. A single murder in such a small population would instantly catapult the place into the "dangerous" category for no real reason.

[WC145]

May township population is estimated at 872. I wonder how many bars are in May township?

I didn't read the links because I don't care that much but I'd guess the stats are per capita so when you are talking about a place with a population of just 872 even 1 event is going to skew the curve big time.

[VonFireball]

This place is a statistical aberration.

Suuuuuure, now that I just schooled you on "high crime rural areas."

Don't doubt the dumb kid next time, you'll be better off.

It doesn't need one murder to skew it, because there are usually several each year to handle that.

It's a high crime rural area. Good luck trying to disprove that. I can rest my case, while you can lick your wounds and go back to trying to disprove it.

Apparently you didn't see the rape numbers either.

[mav88]

Wildalaska has to worry more if 8 rounds is enough to stop
A big azz grizzly bear knocking on his door then meth heads LOL..
That's what I'd worry about if I lived In Alaska.nah all joking
Aside..noons is a hundred percent sure how they will respond
If more then 3 Bg comes and attacks you and you have a
1911... All you can do is practice at the range and IF a
Situation like that did happen then pray.....and try your best
To aim fatal shots ....it's better to die fighting period.

[David Armstrong]

You wouldnt believe places like Fresno, Bakersfield or Salinas have gangs.

While there are rural areas around Fresno, Bakersfield, and Salinas (my hometown, BTW!) to suggest those cities are rural areas is sort of liking saying NYC is rural because they have Central Park. Don't see many 'bangers hanging around out in the fields picking produce.

I would argue that there are more threats from gangs in rural areas then there are in urban areas.

Then your argument would not be factually correct.

[David Armstrong]

What about Starsky and Hutch, did they need high capacity handguns? I don't think so.

Didn't Starsky carry a S&W Mdl 59? And IIRC Hutch used a 6" Python.

[Sarge43]

It's way too complex a training scenario to type out here, but part of my and my units training was to learn to ignore what the other guy is throwing at you and staying on target to put rounds his way in a controlled and effective manner. It is human nature to flinch, duck, bob and whatever else you want to throw in there while being shot at, but it can be GREATLY lessened with good and ONGOING training. Your average (I guess I should say "in my experience" here) bad guy's training consists of maybe learning how to put the mag in the weapon and pulling the trigger, and it shows. I've been shot at numerous times and most of the rounds haven't even been close. If you can control yourself in those situations where CQB is the style, carrying 8 rounds against 3 adversary's simply means you have 5 rounds left over for their friends when it's done. Train for control (control of your body, your mind and your weapon) and you'll more than likely come out on top.
Firefights, especially on a larger scale, are remarkably random, and there is no amount of training that can save you from that "lucky round" or "the bad guy is shooting at the guy to your left, but hits you". Training to control everything YOU can control is the best way to up the odds of coming home.
Having said all of this, I always carry as much ammo as is feasible for the situation. I try to stack the deck in my favor every way I can.
Sarge

[David Armstrong]

It's a high crime rural area. Good luck trying to disprove that. I can rest my case, while you can lick your wounds and go back to trying to disprove it.

Sure, just like you can prove North Dakota is more corrupt politiacally than places like Illinois, Louisiana, Massachusetts, and so on. That is why folks who know and understand statistics rarely try to do direct comparisons among high-population areas and low-population areas. Did you know that one year a small town in Oklahoma had the higherst murder rate that has ever been recorded, reaching nearly 30%? Of course the town was really just a hole in the wall with a branch bank placed there mostly for the military, and some BG came in and shot the place up. Killed 11 people IIRC.

[alloy]

maybe endless scenarios, practicing and analyzing for something that never happens, buying gear or worrying for an event that doesnt materialize, might be stressful in ways you arent equipped for, John?

into town, gangs on ever corner. back at the ranch...6 foot witches in the woods. folks stepping off into the trees as you drive by late at night? try the suburbs. or sleep. less caffiene all around.

all your base are belong to us.

[Musketeer]

Many confrontations that occur nowadays happen with more then 1 hostile. There are usually 2 to 3 hostile characters. Some will flee when they see your 1911 while others will stay to fight until you are taken out.

I was thinking of this scenario where you are against 3 hostiles which is not an unusual situation. Your first 3-5 shots will probably miss. No target is ever stationary and when you produce your weapon then the target will start moving in a tactical manner.

So many assumption and unsupported statements it is laughable.

I guess we better all bring a PPSH with a couple drums.

[nate45]

Didn't Starsky carry a S&W Mdl 59? And IIRC Hutch used a 6" Python.

I'm not sure, but I think I've found the solution to the Op's scenario.

It was right here on TFL too.

Pure genius, or sheer stupidity? You decide

All the OP has to do is mount a G-17 with the 100 round drum on the R/C copter instead of the near worthless low capacity 1911.

Then he could lay down massive amounts of tactical suppressive fire, while he makes a strategic withdrawal to fire base two!

Pure genius, or sheer stupidity? You decide, you know that would also make a good alternate title to this thread.

[Hondo11]

This is the original post. Highlights are mine.

Many confrontations that occur nowadays happen with more then 1 hostile. There are usually 2 to 3 hostile characters. Some will flee when they see your 1911 while others will stay to fight until you are taken out.

I was thinking of this scenario where you are against 3 hostiles which is not an unusual situation. Your first 3-5 shots will probably miss. No target is ever stationary and when you produce your weapon then the target will start moving in a tactical manner.

8 shots is enough if you are up against just one person, but not enough for more. There is something to be said about "spray and prey". Sometimes its the only method to keep heads down while you make your strategic retreat preventing the hostiles from firing back.

Although spraying isnt the safest for nearby civilians, I believe its a method that will keep you alive.

Im seeing more pistols with higher capacities coming out to address the need that exists. Sig P226s now have a version which carries 15 .40s or 20 9 mms.

20 bullets may seem a little ridiculous, but I can picture a scenario where you are defending your house against 3 armed burglars in a remote rural area and they do not retreat. In that situation, pure firepower in volume is what is needed to drive them back.

Shot placement is a great idea, but try it against 3 mobile targets that are tactically evading you. You wont get a hit...

Who decided that people who carry 1911's only have 8 rounds? It's called a "reload".

Who decided that 8 rounds is enough for 1 person? And who decided it's not enough for 3?

"Pure firepower in volume" isn't going to be produced by your 20-round Sig, even if you have extra mags. Get your self a nice belt-fed and a few drums of ammo.

What's the magic number? When do you have enough rounds for 3 people? What if you have that number of rounds, but there are 4 people? So you carry enough rounds for 4 people, but then there are 5? When do you have enough? Please tell me so I can by the right sized backpack and/or the sufficient number of pack mules.

[VonFireball]

Sure, just like you can prove North Dakota is more corrupt politiacally than places like Illinois, Louisiana, Massachusetts, and so on.

I could, can, and will (if I have to) prove those same areas I talked about are as politically corrupt as places like Illinois, Mass, and so on.

All sorts of small town scandals there. Where would you like me to start?

That is why folks who know and understand statistics rarely try to do direct comparisons among high-population areas and low-population areas.

Yeah, those who understand statistics avoid those comparisons. The rest of us been there.

Did you know that one year a small town in Oklahoma had the higherst murder rate that has ever been recorded, reaching nearly 30%? Of course the town was really just a hole in the wall with a branch bank placed there mostly for the military, and some BG came in and shot the place up. Killed 11 people IIRC.

It ain't the same thing. One freak bank robbing isn't the same as one or two "regular" murders and scores of rapes.


My only point was that I understood the situation the OP was talking about. It's the kind of country living where every car that comes up your driveway without an invite first puts you on high alert, especially when the car is full of crusty lookin' characters.

As there are places with high population and low crime, so are there places with low populations and high crime. End of discussion for me.

I'll leave it at this:

A few things for "maximum security during country living"

1. A gate at front of property/end of driveways or trails.

2. Posted No Trespassing every 100 yards, signed and dated.

3. "Beware of Dogs" signs posted throughout property

4. Dogs

5. Security camera near entrance of driveway

6. Insert your chosen favorite rifle/pistol/shotgun combo here for your last line of defense.

That is stuff that most country people can afford without to much expense and is my best recommendation for security on the back 40.

[freakintoguns]

umm dude, have you been to fresno? its a mini LA or Oakland. Bakersfield isnt much better. here in NM out in the country the methheads dont mess with anyone. the happily shoot up and stay out in the country doing whatever it is they do. again, get a job

[scorpion_tyr]

Whoever you're taking tactical advise from John... stop listening to them and get some professional opinions. Too much there both statistics and I disagree with, and it's Friday.

[Mike_NY]

A lone gunman who finds himself up against multiple determined and competent attackers is gonna lose, plain and simple. Whether your gun holds 8 or 80 rounds isn't likely to make much difference. That's the thing that SHTF discussions seem to miss. It is YOU who will be dealing with suppressing fire while your attackers maneuver for the kill.

It may be entertaining to discuss, and you certainly have a right to plan for such a scenario, but to honestly believe you have a snowball's chance of surviving a lopsided gunfight is delusional. There's plenty of reasons why high capacity and/or extra magazines are a good idea but prevailing against multiple armed assailants isn't high on the list.

........Mike

[Dallas Jack]

Home invasions can happen anywhere and as they are usually 2 to 4 armed attackers that kick the door in round count is not the problem. Having a gun within reach is the problem.

Not having ever been in a gunfight I have seen a few. Here are the situations as I witneesed them.

1. One guy running and shooting over his shoulder, another guy shooting at him. Total round count: 7.

2. One guy in a appartment fired one 12 guage round at 2 guys in the parking lot that were pointing a handgun at him.

3. Two guys in the parking lot firing at a fleeing car. They fired 15 rounds with no return fire.

The average round count for these few accounts is 4.6. Statistically incanclusive. Having said that I carry a 10+1 .45 ACP most of the time. When not carrying the .45 I carry a 12+1 9mm or 10+1 .40S&W. Nice to have a few "just in case" rounds.
Dallas Jack

[bhannah]

I carry a revolver....