January 21, 2013, 07:29 PM | #1 |
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Loading for Garand
I'm about to order a Garand next week and was wondering where are ya'll getting reload data for these rifles? Just trying to avoid the dreadful bent op-rod. It's mostly gonna be for plinking, so no since in trying to beat up the rifle or my shoulder.
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January 21, 2013, 07:37 PM | #2 |
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In short, use H4895 or IMR4895 or AA2495 powder and don't try to hotrod it and you'll be fine.
A little more detail: http://home.comcast.net/~jlemons01/R...ohnRClarke.pdf
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January 21, 2013, 07:41 PM | #3 |
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4064 is another popular powder. I would not go any slower though. CCI 34's are the primer I have been using although I will try some Tula's when I run out. Congratulations on the new rifle. You will have fun with it. I have a hard time believing how accurate mine is and how many admirers check it out at the range.
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January 21, 2013, 07:46 PM | #4 |
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Thanks guys. Go figure that I found a one of my old Lyman books that has load specific for the Garand. lol
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January 21, 2013, 08:53 PM | #5 |
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Hornady manual has specific load data for the Garand.
Most loads are going to be around 46.0 gr for medium powders and 168 gr bullets. In fact 46.0 gr is my most accurate load for both Varget and H4895 with 168 gr SMK. A general rule of thumb I've read is use a medium powder between H4895 and IMR4320 and keep velocity at or below 2,700fps with a 150 gr bullet. From the load tables that works out to about 2,600fps with 168 gr bullets. Only use that as a sanity check guide not an absolute. Definitely want to start lower and work up as usual. No need to beat up your Garand so start low and find an accurate load and do not try to push the maximum end of the envelope.
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January 21, 2013, 08:59 PM | #6 |
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47gr 4895 150gr pill. Probably a few hundred through my Garand. Chrono's at 2750.
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January 21, 2013, 10:26 PM | #7 |
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It is generally recommended to load between 147-173gr bullets for the M1 Garand or M14 using standard jacketed bullet loads.
A powder in the suitable burn rate range for the action of this type of semi auto gas rifle such as IMR 4895, H4895, AA 2495, BL C2, H335, Win 748, IMR 4064 (and there are others). 30-06 data using proper powder and bullet weights for the M1/M14 will work fine from any manual. I use Winchester primers seated properly/fully. |
January 22, 2013, 12:02 PM | #8 |
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I use 47 Grains of IMR4895 under a 168 Match bullet, or 49 Grains IMR4895 under a 150 FMJ-BT. All loaded in Lake City 1962 match brass.
The article says to use Federal 210M's. I would stay away from these (at least the current vintage) as they are very soft. With the M1's floating firing pin, there have been some reports of slam fire's because of the soft primer. I have had no issue with slam fires with Winchester large rifle, or CCI Large Rifle.
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January 22, 2013, 11:47 PM | #9 |
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150gr FMJ
49 gr IMR4895 Lake City brass Always end up with a punishing bruise. I dont know if there is a such thing as .30-06 and a non-beatup shoulder. |
January 23, 2013, 08:37 AM | #10 |
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99% of the slam fires in M1's (and M14's, M1A's) have been caused by insufficient hammer-sear engagement or improper trigger finger control. Having seen a few dozen ejected cases from slam fires in them, all had a full depth dimple from the firing pin getting a normal, full impact from the hammer. They looked exactly the same as normally fired ones and had the same shape and dimensions.
I've seen a lot of rounds with Federal primers lightly dimpled by impact of the floating firing pin when the bolt closed normally in semiauto fire. Many were quite deep but none enough to fire them. To say nothing of the 10s of thousands of rounds of Federal .308 Win. match ammo fired in these rifles without incident. Improper finger control is when the shooter's firing hand grip on the stock's not enough and the trigger finger isn't held back hard against the stop until the rifle's stopped moving from recoil. That finger moves forward a bit and as the rifle starts moving forward after recoil, that finger stays in place. The rifle moves forward enough to disengage the sear and the hammer falls. Sometimes, this is called "doubling" if two shots are fired in near full auto speed. 1% are caused by the receiver's safety bridge being worn too much and lets the firing pin go too far forward before the bolt's in battery. Until someone shows me a slam fired case with only a slightly dimpled primer, I rest my case. Meanwhile, back to loads used......... Some favorite load used by militry rifle teams were: *44 grains of IMR4320 in an 7.62 M118 primed match case under a Sierra 190 for converted M1's. *M80 7.62 ammo's 147 gr. bullet replaced with a Sierra 168 or military 172 gr. match bullet (a virtual copy of the military proof load producing 65,000 cup) for both M1's and M14's. M118 7.62 round's bullet replaced with a Sierra 180 for both rifles. M72 30 caliber match ammo's bullet replaced with a Western or Sierra 180 gr. match bullet for Garands. 47 gr. of IMR4064 in .30-06 case under a Sierra 168 or 180 match bullet. Gizmo688, thousands of folks have worn out a few Garand barrels and never once had a sore, beat up, or otherwise painful shoulder. One of 'em typing these words. Last edited by Bart B.; January 23, 2013 at 09:37 AM. |
January 23, 2013, 06:57 PM | #11 | |
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Quote:
Bart dates back from those generations who were taught by NRA authority figures that the only cause of slamfires were “high primers” and “worn receiver bridges”. These authority figures were the retired Army and Ordnance employees who worked the for American Rifleman. The American Rifleman technical staff did not acknowledge primer sensitivity as a cause of slamfires. I went through every American Rifleman magazine from the late 50's up to 2000 and primer sensitivity as a cause is only touched on briefly in Wayne Faatz’s article “The Mysterious Slamfire”. http://www.scribd.com/doc/2649554/Th...rious-Slamfire and the whole concept repudiated years later by a lead staff writer. The only allowed causes of slamfires by that author were high primers and worn out receiver bridges. This is puzzling as their most knowledgeable Staff writers had worked for Army Ordnance, at least one of them worked at Frankfort Arsenal for decades and I have copies of letters William Davis (NRA writer) sent out to all American Ammunition manufacturers concerning his study of primer sensitivity and the AR15. If you don’t remember, early AR15’s slamfired which resulted in the Army specifying a less sensitive primer and a lighter firing pin. These ex Frankfort Arsenal employees also went through development of the lead styphnate primer, something that was tested over years concerning issues you never thought of, including weapon system character tics and primer sensitivities. I have a couple of these reports. The lead Staff Expert at the NRA actually ran the Smalls Arms Test Division at Aberdeen after WW2 when all prototype rifles were tested (and there were lots of them) leading to the selection of the M14. And yet with all this background in ammunition manufacture, investigations into primer initiated slamfires, they never mentioned primer sensitivity as a factor in slamfires in the Garand or M14. Civilians did not know about AR15 slamfires at the time, the mass importation of military surplus rifles with heavy free floating firing pins had not occurred. Such rifles include the Tokarev, AK47, SKS’s, MAS49/56 and you can easily find slamfire reports on them. And of course there was no internet for shooters to compare notes. The American Rifleman staff controlled the in print theoretical discussion about slamfires by only publishing dope bag articles and accounts that supported their contentions that only high primers and worn receiver bridges cause slamfires. It is apparent that the Garand mechanism slamfired with factory ammunition from its earliest day. This is a picture of the rare round Garand firing pin. This firing pin is rare because it was replaced in the early 40’s with a lighter weight firing pin we are all so familar. The pictures below show the scalloped Garand firing pin, the later M14 firing pin and the M1 Carbine firing pin. The Army could not desensitize 30-06 primers to match the operating characteristics of the heavy round firing pin, because the same ammunition was used in many other mechanisms, and those weapons would misfire with insensitive primers, so to reduce kinetic impact, material was removed material from the Garand firing pin. It is obvious that the lighter firing pin did not prevent all firing pin initated slamfires, and reports of Garand slamfires with factory ammunition are easily found. The Italians made the M1 Garand mechanism for the Danes and ended up making a full auto version for themselves; the BM 59. It is obvious they were aware of M1 slamfires so when they made the BM 59 the Italians added a firing pin spring around the firing pin to reduce the impact energy of the firing pin on the primer. The M1 carbine was the first of its class and if you look at the primer sensitivity of 30 Carbine primers, the average ignition drop height requirement is much higher than that of 30-06 primers. That is why the Army was able to use a round firing pin in the carbine, nether the less, M1 carbines slamfire, and like Garands/M14’s they also slamfire out of battery as well as in battery. Slamfires can and have happened with all rifle primers. Anytime you have a free floating firing pin hitting a primer there is a chance that the primer will ignite. You can buy primers that are on average less sensitive, but neither you or the primer manufacturer can guarantee the primer sensitivity of each individual primer. In fact, primer sensitivity varies significantly within each lot. Federals were then, and are now, the most slamfiring primer in Garands and M1a’s. This is the dimple raised by feeding the rounds from the clip in a Garand. Any mechanism capable to dimpling a primer that deep is quite capable of igniting a sensitive primer. Notice how many rounds the guy fires. If he had a mechanical problem he would have recurring slamfires, but he did not. When you see the slamfire, notice that the finger is not on the trigger. He was running Federal American Eagle (federal primers) and Winchester ammo. Tavor 21 Slamfire video on youtube. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bu8Dwj7Ey8k And the rifle does not have a receiver bridge, never did, never has.
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January 23, 2013, 07:15 PM | #12 |
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I no longer believe that the receiver bridge is a safety device, older M1 Carbine manual call it a firing pin retraction cam and that is all that it is. The idea that it prevents contact between the firing pin and primer is an invention of those NRA staff writers. It does not and it is an easily tested contention as I have done with three receivers I got from the CMP.
These receivers were built up with all correct parts, and not only all correct, but my expert friends down there chose parts that were correct for the serial number ranges. I wanted to test just how much, if at all, the receiver bridge retracted the firing pin. I used a spring loaded stick and placed it alternatively on the firing pin, forcing it against the receiver bridge, or pushed the bolt forward, with the firing pin tang resting against the receiver bridge. Spring loaded stick Stick on bolt, pushing it forward Bolt pushed forward Gap between lug and receiver Stick on firing pin tang lugs to seat
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January 23, 2013, 07:17 PM | #13 |
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Lugs in receiver seats, firing pin forward
On every receiver the firing pin is extended through the bolt face during cam down. The firing pin tip could be felt just when the tang touched the receiver bridge, it could be felt in front of the bolt face during cam down. This receiver bridge is not an effective preventative to firing pin contact with the primer and I don’t think it ever was supposed to be. Firing pin through bolt face at thickest section of receiver bridge Slight firing pin in front of bolt face before firing pin goes through receiver bridge. This pencil mark showing when firing pin clears receiver bridge notch. The firing pin is free to impact the primer very early in cam down. It is my contention that those NRA Technical staff employees were very aware that Garand mechanisms slamfire without user misconduct, but they never mentioned it. Instead they created a misdirection campaign that pushed faults of the basic mechanism onto the user. Yes, bumping the trigger has caused doubling, but this mechanism will not fire out of battery when the hammer falls. Yes, mechanical malfunctions have caused doubling, but these are not subtle and when M1a’s doubled, we pulled the rifle from the firing line . But firing initiated slamfires are the most subtle and most dangerous as they are totally unpredictable and the mechanism will slamfire out of battery, which is very dangerous to the shooter.
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January 23, 2013, 10:00 PM | #14 | |
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Slamfires claims:
Quote:
That's strike one. That aside, your pictures of a Garand's working parts are very good. Two questions. How much head clearance would a normal service round have in the chamber with the bolt pictured as "Lugs in receiver seats, firing pin forward?" And how far does the firing pin protrude from the bolt face? Last edited by Bart B.; January 23, 2013 at 10:21 PM. |
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January 23, 2013, 10:20 PM | #15 | |
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January 23, 2013, 10:22 PM | #16 |
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Looks like pin protrusion's about 10 thousandths. But it's hard to tell exactly. I thought you would have a dimension as that would be helpful understanding the clearance issues. Head clearance may be the same. Both are critical to this issue as the round's shoulder is typically hard against the chamber shoulder for the last several thousandths of bolt travel.
That "Gap between lug and receiver" picture showing a .008" measurement will never be that much when the bolt closes on a live round; even with a chamber at maximum GO gauge headspace and case with minimum headspace. It'll be near, if not exactly, zero as the bolt starts to rotate into battery on a live round. There's several parts in the front of the bolt that makes that happen when a round's chambered. Show me a picture of a slam fired case from a Garand with the primer dimpled just a little bit, not a full depth dimple form normal firing and you've got my attention. All the slam fired cases from M1's and M14's I've seen have had normal, full depth dimpled primers. Last edited by Bart B.; January 24, 2013 at 09:45 AM. |
January 24, 2013, 09:47 AM | #17 |
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Bart: Forgive me as I thought you were going to be argumentative and I signed off in a huff. And I thought you knew the firing pin protrusion and were playing a cat and mouse game with me.
According to the July 1961 American Rifleman article “Function of M1 Bolt Assembly”, which is the first to suggest that high primers were causing slamfires in M1’s, the firing pin tip protrusion with the firing pin in the fired position is from 0.044” to 0.050”. That is a book value and I have not measured any of mine to verify that the as built meets print. However, I don’t think these values are of much use as the system is a dynamic system, but I will show the relationship between receiver seat and bolt lug just as the firing pin tang touches the receiver bridge For the education of those who don’t know, the M1 carbine receiver bridge is functionally identical to the M1/M14 bridge, just cut different. I took these pictures as a fully extended firing tang touched the thickest section of the bridge, just prior to cam down. Something to note, as the bolt rotates, the bridge gets thinner and firing pin tip protrusion increases. M1a Receiver Anyone can see that maybe there are thousandth’s of an inch of movement forward on that bolt, and yet the firing pin is sticking out maybe 0.05” out of the bolt face. This is where out of battery slamfires take place in these mechanisms. The firing pin is fully able to rebound off the back of a primer before cam down. This can be due to bolt bounce, binding of the case in chamber, interference fit between case and chamber, and probably some other things that would be revealed with a high speed camera. Once cam down occurs there is still some amount of firing pin protrusion all the way to battery. Now Bart, my two out of battery slamfires both had nice deep rounded primers, and yet the trigger mechanisms are still in use and have never followed. I don’t know why Garand/M14 slamfires produce deep indentations but they do. Primer sensitivity is the primary cause of slamfires that cannot be explained by mechanical malfunctions, such as broken firing pins. I do not consider hammer following as a true slamfire, but the rifle will fire, so maybe it is. I do not consider trigger bumping as a true slamfire as the shooter pulled the trigger and the mechanism did what it is supposed to when the trigger is pulled. Like other semi auto mechanisms with free floating firing pins, I know slamfire probablity was controlled by primer sensitivity. Which is why these mechanisms have the most reported slamfires with the most sensitive primers on the market: Federal. However slamfires have been reported with all American primer brands and that is due to the fact that primer sensitivity varies within the lot. Any idea that there are mechanical interlocks that prevent slamfires in this mechanism is a fabrication that started in the late 50's.
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January 24, 2013, 05:56 PM | #18 |
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Where's the case head surface when the bolt's closing on a live round and is in the position shown below when a round's single loaded, when a full clip's loaded and when the second through eighth round from a clip's chambered?
Back hard against the bolt face? In front of the extractor claw as it's being pushed forward into the chamber by that claw as well as the ejector? Half way between the above two choices? |
January 24, 2013, 06:29 PM | #19 |
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I've never used anything but IMR4895, capped with 150- or 168-grain bullets.
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January 24, 2013, 09:30 PM | #20 | |
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Quote:
This rifle is not a controlled round feed so would not the location of the case head vary? Something that I have not figured out, and maybe you can tell me, is why Garands in good mechanical condition have slamfired out of battery when fired single shot, standing, with GI ball? I have a few accounts of shooters who put LC ammunition in the chamber of a rack grade Garand, dropped the bolt, and the rifle slamfired out of battery. I suspect there is bolt bounce going on, but what is your opinion?
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January 24, 2013, 09:53 PM | #21 |
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Slamfire, the case head's in front of the extractor claw as well as the lower lip of the bolt face (which picks up a new round from the clip) all the way forward with the bolt. When the case shoulder stops against the chamber shoulder, the extractor lip opens up and slides over the case rim and at the same time the ejector is pressing against the case. You can measure the distance from the bolt face to the bolt's forward most parts that push the case into the chamber to get an idea of how far the bolt has to close on a round before it goes all the way into battery.
As soon as the extractor lip goes forward enough, it snaps into the extractor groove on the case head in front of the rim. If you slowly watch the extractor slide over a case head while slowly closing the bolt on one, you'll see when the extractor's in place relative to where the right bolt lug is in its cutout on the receiver. Without examining the rifles having an out of battery slam fire, I'm not going to speculate as to their cause; several reasons are at stake. But one is a frozen firing pin by an obstruction in the bolt locking it into place. But something is probably way out of proper timing. Or with handloads, a piece of grit under a high primer that made it fire as the bolt was closing on it. And I would want to check the slam fired round's primer dimples, too. Regarding the claims that Federal primers have been in the most slam fired Garands, I would want to see the ratio of rounds fired with a given primer versus slam fires with it to get a realistic number. What if 10 times as many Federal primers were used in handloads than all the others put together? Most of the slam fires I've seen cases from have all been with arsenal 7.62 NATO ball and match ammo with MIL SPEC primers from M1, M14 and M1A rifles Last edited by Bart B.; January 25, 2013 at 08:14 AM. |
January 24, 2013, 10:25 PM | #22 |
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I don't know about Garands, but I do know federal primers have a reputation for slam fires in AR-10's, although Crane just chose the Fed GMM primer for the new Mk316 sniper load. The SR-25/M110 rifle has a free floating firing pin, as do all the M14 EBR variants out there.
So take that for what it is worth I guess. Jimro
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January 25, 2013, 08:00 AM | #23 |
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There are firearms with spring-loaded floating firing pins to keep them from accelerating forward and striking industry-known primers with soft cups as the breech goes into battery on a chambered round. They've been around long before the Garand was designed. It's been suggested that those without these springs be modified to have them. Yes, a radical idea. So was once the thought of moving in any vehicle faster than 100 mph.
Last edited by Bart B.; January 25, 2013 at 08:08 AM. |
January 25, 2013, 09:16 AM | #24 | ||
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Quote:
As someone tabulating a round count of all rounds fired versus slamfires, by brand, if I pass a hat around do you think I could get that funded? I would be very happy to create a large bureaucracy with a huge budget, high salary for me, trim long legged staff members, and an unlimited travel budget. But such privileges are reserved for Congress and Bank CEO’s, so I don’t think it is going to happen. I have done my own study by copying accounts of slamfires posted on the web. There is a lot of “noise” from posters, they apply the theories they know to explain the event, usually all the circumstances are not described, but patterns fall out. Quote:
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January 25, 2013, 09:18 AM | #25 | |
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There is a word limit per post so it takes several posts to just post all the Garand slamfire posts I have collected:
Quote:
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