1911 trijicon nightsight install delimma

Koda94 · April 25, 2014, 07:54 PM

I have a delimma and have exhausted my imagination, and pocketbook.

I bought a sightpusher and a Strobel Front sight tool to install CA-10 Trijicon Nightsights onto my Colt S80 flat top commander. I did a good job with the install but test firing I found my group about 4" low. Tight, but low.

Back at home and examining the front sight I decided to give it a nudge with the sight tool and re-swage the tenon a bit more.... but it broke off clean under pressure. Not a happy camper. So I purchased a new set of sights, this time I took it to a gunsmith. He installed the front sight. I asked him about adjusting if needed and he said there was nothing that can be done if it needs adjusting and assured me it was seated. At home, same inspection as for my installation and same result... I felt I did my install correctly, at least everything appeared the same.

Test firing.... it shoots low. I concentrated on my grip, stance, trigger pull etc. and my best group was a tight group about 3" low @ 10 yds. I tried moving the target back a bit, about 20 yds... still low, larger group.

By comparison, I've owned this pistol since 1997 with its stock sights and have never had a problem holding a group on target, at this point I am not attributing the low group with my shooting ability... I'm not pleased with it shooting low.

I'm out of ideas. I'm out of money on sights.... or at least will not buy another set until I either learn what the problem is or have a guarentee they will shoot straight. The only idea I can think of is the Trijicon CA-10 sight was not designed for a flat top 1911 commander.

Can anyone either tell me whats wrong, or recommend a night sight for a flat top Colt that is guaranteed to work on my pistol. If I cant figure this out, I will re-install the factory sights.

Thanks in advance.

HiBC · April 25, 2014, 11:34 PM

I can understand your frustration.Darn thing SHOULD work!You spent your money!But that only exists inside our skull.Darn reality.

A maybe:I have "sighted in" fixed sight Colt Single Action revolver clones via changing loads.Bullet weight,burn rate,recoil impulse will move you around on target.Try something different,just to see.

There is some variability in how a 1911 barrel lies inside the slide.The bushing centers the muzzle,but the breech is controlled by the lockup.

One version of "ideal" is a perfectly centered firing pin strike on the primer.

If you push down on the hood of the barrel when the pistol is closed,does the barrel mush down some?Ideally,the barrel is held up in lockup by the lug feet resting on the slide stop pin.Sometimes the link is too long,and the barrel is held up higher at the breech than necessary.

There are several critical relationships at play.They must be understood to fix.Just lowering the barrel breech also decreases locking lug engagement.You need a good 1911 mechanic to diagnose the lockup.Having said all that,you won't find your sight correction here.You need too much.But,verify the lockup is correct.

I have the Strobel staking tool,and use it with good results.I do mill the anvil that supports the sight so its the base of the sight that takes the load,not the thin web of material at the top of the blade.I cut the anvil to fit the sight each time.

Do a little sight height calculation.Measure your sight radius,in inches.Convert the range to the target to inches.If it is 10 yds,it is 360 inches.divide the sight radius into the range.If the sight radius was 6 inches,it would go 60 times.That number is the multiplier .It will tell you the effect on target of a known sight change.Your numbers will be a little different.With the example numbers,a sight change of .010 would be .600 on target,.020 would be 1.2 in.So,3 in would be a change of .050.

I vaguely recall with XS Sight Systems there is a .050 difference in rear sight height between the 1911 5 in pistol and the Commander Sight.Don't count on that,check into it.

The shortest Trijicon stake in front sight I have found is for the Officers model.It is .160 .I put one on a full length 1911 that shot low with good results.

Another place to gain some if you have military type rear sights,put on the 1911 direct replacement rear sight in a National Match version.It is taller.10-8 products and one other brand I forget,can be found in Brownell's/Midway.

You might contact Trijicon.It may be they will fit the sights to your slide for a reasonable fee,and perhaps provide for som sight correction if you tell them what you need.Maybe.

Good luck!

Koda94 · April 26, 2014, 12:14 AM

Thanks for the reply, good suggestions but I dont think I will mess with the lockup mechanics I'm not a gunsmith and it did shoot fine before I messed with the sights. I was very pleased with the strobel tool, and also made an anvil to fit and support the Trijicon sight base.

I sent an email to Trijicon asking if the sight was intended for the flat top Colts.... I have a hunch it was not, and the flat top is not the same as all other round top 1911's. I think, this is the cause... but will probably never really know.

If I do not find a solution I will have to remove the Trijicon sights and either go back to OEM sights or consult and pay a gunsmith for a completely different installation option. Before I would do the latter I will pop out the front sight with the strobel tool and file the base bottom down and see if it will re-install. Strobels instruction claims if you do it right (removal) you can re-install the sight, and do the math (or Brownells has a Sight Correction calculator) that would give me an educated guess on how much to file... ... it would be a long shot (pun intended) if it worked.https://www.brownells.com/.aspx/lid=...ion_Calculator

HiBC · April 26, 2014, 12:41 AM

What is your front sight height? A better question,how much shorter would the .160 height Trijicon Officers model sight be?You can buy just the front sight.If you talk with Trijicon...you bought their sight,it did not work out.They now have an opportunity to keep a happy customer by sending you a shorter sight at a price that still makes them the wholesale profit,but is less than retail.

All you risk is a conversation.I bet you are not the first to have this problem.They have been there before,

Koda94 · April 26, 2014, 01:05 AM

yes, that's why I sent the email to Trijicon. Its the weekend so I will have to wait to make a call. When I broke the first sight.... They will let you order just the front sight, but they didnt tell me it was a 2 month backorder... After a couple weeks of silence I inquired, got frustrated and cancelled my front sight only order with them and had a complete set at my door in 5 days from Amazon... for only 30 bucks more for the set.

I'm not expecting much from Trijicon. If they had the issue before then they should send me the correct sight for free. But honestly it doesn't seem the odds high that many other customers would have the same sight/gun needs.

their website does show a blade height difference between the Officers (.155"), Commander (.200") and Govt (.185") front sight. But again, the odds of them knowing which one of those is the correct height (if perfectly at all) specific for the "enhanced" Colt flat top slide is low. Hope I'm wrong. How accurate is the sight height calculation?

the really sad thing is the thought of the price of yet another set of sights. I'm willing to live and learn but this is killing me I could buy another gun.

HiBC · April 26, 2014, 06:56 AM

If you do the math I suggested,first measuring your sight radius,etc,it should all be quite accurate.

And you can measure the height of the sight you have to get an idea.

Midway or Brownells may list a replacement.

Koda94 · July 11, 2014, 10:50 PM

Thought I would follow up with this. I got a reply from Trijicon and they requested I send them my slide for warranty repair. Turn around was 4-6 weeks and it took about 6 (my pistol has been out of service long enough over this I gave up keeping track). They replaced the front sight for free, I just got it yesterday. Unfortunately I wont be able to take it to the range for a few weeks but I am excited. I measured the height of the sight and it matches their officers dimensions (CA09). I measured my old broken (CA10) sight and compared the difference with the brownells sight calculator and they match within .001" what the calculator suggests the correct height difference should be. FWIW I dont know but its something for once that adds up.

I'm pretty convinced the issue is my "enhanced" flat top slide surface sits higher than a standard round top surface. Anyways, customer service was good to me. My suggestion for any Colt "enhanced" flat top owners that want Trijicon sights to send them the slide and have them install them, that way there should be no issue or guess work since their website hasn't been revised to exclude flat top slides.

DnPRK · July 12, 2014, 12:00 AM

I measured my older round top commander slide and did a little math to determine how short your front sight needs to be to raise the point of impact 3" at 10 yards.

You need to take off 0.048" from your CA10 front sight which is 0.20" tall. This means you need a front sight which is 0.152" tall. The Officer's CA09 front sight fits the bill as it is 0.155" tall and should get you close to your desired impact point. Proof of the pudding is to shoot it and see how it performs.

Koda94 · July 12, 2014, 12:11 AM

DnPRK, your numbers match exactly what I got from the brownells sight calculator. However if your numbers are derrived from a round top slide it suggests that the CA10 set on the Trijicon website is wrong for all commander 1911s im surprised they havnt figured that out yet...

Koda94 · July 20, 2014, 11:40 PM

to wrap this up.

finally got some range time today and the grouping was centered on bullseye.
The kit offered on the Trijicon website (CA-10) does not work for my Colt enhanced flat top commander. Their customer service was good and sending my slide into them for repair was free of charge. The new front sight height measures the same as what is shown for their officers kit. So if you own an enhanced flat top Colt Commander and want Trijicon night sights of this style I suggest having Trijicon install them means sending them your slide. I would not order them on line for a smith to install.

HiBC · July 21, 2014, 12:44 AM

Glad it worked out for you.
I'm also glad you gave Trijicon a chance.

A lot is beyond their control.For all the possible variations in a 1911 as far as tolerance stacks,its no wonder they have some POI/POA variability.

I played this game with a Springfield GI spec and a frankengun I made with a Rem slide and an RIA frame.Both GI type slides with GI type sights that shot low.

Fortunately,I test fired them with original sights,found they shot low,did the math,and corrected them with the Officer's model sight,coupled with a 10-8 NM rear sight.I only had to do it once,and the staking tool worked fine with a little tuning first.

RickB · July 21, 2014, 11:10 AM

Quote:

I sent an email to Trijicon asking if the sight was intended for the flat top Colts.... I have a hunch it was not, and the flat top is not the same as all other round top 1911's.

The top/center of the slide is the same for round- and flat-topped slides. The rib is not material "added" to make a raised rib, but is material that is not machined-off on either side of center.
Barrel lock-up might require variations in sight height, but there shouldn't be one set of sights for round slides and another set for flat; the sights are in the same relationship to the slide and barrel for both.
Glad it all worked-out in the end.

Koda94 · July 21, 2014, 01:12 PM

RickB, if that is the case then the CA-10 sights they sell on their website do not work for any commander 1911. I find it odd if that is the case....

RickB · July 21, 2014, 02:24 PM

Now that I think about it, most front sight installations include a small flat milled onto a round top slide, so the sight is fully supported.
In that sense, the ribbed slide would be slightly taller, as no flat has to be milled from it, and any installed sight would be effectively taller when installed on a flat-top; the gun would shoot low.

April 25, 2014, 07:54 PM	#1
Koda94 Senior Member Join Date: November 25, 2012 Location: Cascadia Posts: 1,295	1911 trijicon nightsight install delimma I have a delimma and have exhausted my imagination, and pocketbook. I bought a sightpusher and a Strobel Front sight tool to install CA-10 Trijicon Nightsights onto my Colt S80 flat top commander. I did a good job with the install but test firing I found my group about 4" low. Tight, but low. Back at home and examining the front sight I decided to give it a nudge with the sight tool and re-swage the tenon a bit more.... but it broke off clean under pressure. Not a happy camper. So I purchased a new set of sights, this time I took it to a gunsmith. He installed the front sight. I asked him about adjusting if needed and he said there was nothing that can be done if it needs adjusting and assured me it was seated. At home, same inspection as for my installation and same result... I felt I did my install correctly, at least everything appeared the same. Test firing.... it shoots low. I concentrated on my grip, stance, trigger pull etc. and my best group was a tight group about 3" low @ 10 yds. I tried moving the target back a bit, about 20 yds... still low, larger group. By comparison, I've owned this pistol since 1997 with its stock sights and have never had a problem holding a group on target, at this point I am not attributing the low group with my shooting ability... I'm not pleased with it shooting low. I'm out of ideas. I'm out of money on sights.... or at least will not buy another set until I either learn what the problem is or have a guarentee they will shoot straight. The only idea I can think of is the Trijicon CA-10 sight was not designed for a flat top 1911 commander. Can anyone either tell me whats wrong, or recommend a night sight for a flat top Colt that is guaranteed to work on my pistol. If I cant figure this out, I will re-install the factory sights. Thanks in advance. __________________ lightweight, cheap, strong... pick 2

April 25, 2014, 11:34 PM	#2
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,287	I can understand your frustration.Darn thing SHOULD work!You spent your money!But that only exists inside our skull.Darn reality. A maybe:I have "sighted in" fixed sight Colt Single Action revolver clones via changing loads.Bullet weight,burn rate,recoil impulse will move you around on target.Try something different,just to see. There is some variability in how a 1911 barrel lies inside the slide.The bushing centers the muzzle,but the breech is controlled by the lockup. One version of "ideal" is a perfectly centered firing pin strike on the primer. If you push down on the hood of the barrel when the pistol is closed,does the barrel mush down some?Ideally,the barrel is held up in lockup by the lug feet resting on the slide stop pin.Sometimes the link is too long,and the barrel is held up higher at the breech than necessary. There are several critical relationships at play.They must be understood to fix.Just lowering the barrel breech also decreases locking lug engagement.You need a good 1911 mechanic to diagnose the lockup.Having said all that,you won't find your sight correction here.You need too much.But,verify the lockup is correct. I have the Strobel staking tool,and use it with good results.I do mill the anvil that supports the sight so its the base of the sight that takes the load,not the thin web of material at the top of the blade.I cut the anvil to fit the sight each time. Do a little sight height calculation.Measure your sight radius,in inches.Convert the range to the target to inches.If it is 10 yds,it is 360 inches.divide the sight radius into the range.If the sight radius was 6 inches,it would go 60 times.That number is the multiplier .It will tell you the effect on target of a known sight change.Your numbers will be a little different.With the example numbers,a sight change of .010 would be .600 on target,.020 would be 1.2 in.So,3 in would be a change of .050. I vaguely recall with XS Sight Systems there is a .050 difference in rear sight height between the 1911 5 in pistol and the Commander Sight.Don't count on that,check into it. The shortest Trijicon stake in front sight I have found is for the Officers model.It is .160 .I put one on a full length 1911 that shot low with good results. Another place to gain some if you have military type rear sights,put on the 1911 direct replacement rear sight in a National Match version.It is taller.10-8 products and one other brand I forget,can be found in Brownell's/Midway. You might contact Trijicon.It may be they will fit the sights to your slide for a reasonable fee,and perhaps provide for som sight correction if you tell them what you need.Maybe. Good luck! Last edited by HiBC; April 25, 2014 at 11:43 PM.

April 26, 2014, 12:14 AM	#3
Koda94 Senior Member Join Date: November 25, 2012 Location: Cascadia Posts: 1,295	Thanks for the reply, good suggestions but I dont think I will mess with the lockup mechanics I'm not a gunsmith and it did shoot fine before I messed with the sights. I was very pleased with the strobel tool, and also made an anvil to fit and support the Trijicon sight base. I sent an email to Trijicon asking if the sight was intended for the flat top Colts.... I have a hunch it was not, and the flat top is not the same as all other round top 1911's. I think, this is the cause... but will probably never really know. If I do not find a solution I will have to remove the Trijicon sights and either go back to OEM sights or consult and pay a gunsmith for a completely different installation option. Before I would do the latter I will pop out the front sight with the strobel tool and file the base bottom down and see if it will re-install. Strobels instruction claims if you do it right (removal) you can re-install the sight, and do the math (or Brownells has a Sight Correction calculator) that would give me an educated guess on how much to file... ... it would be a long shot (pun intended) if it worked.https://www.brownells.com/.aspx/lid=...ion_Calculator __________________ lightweight, cheap, strong... pick 2

April 26, 2014, 01:05 AM	#5
Koda94 Senior Member Join Date: November 25, 2012 Location: Cascadia Posts: 1,295	yes, that's why I sent the email to Trijicon. Its the weekend so I will have to wait to make a call. When I broke the first sight.... They will let you order just the front sight, but they didnt tell me it was a 2 month backorder... After a couple weeks of silence I inquired, got frustrated and cancelled my front sight only order with them and had a complete set at my door in 5 days from Amazon... for only 30 bucks more for the set. I'm not expecting much from Trijicon. If they had the issue before then they should send me the correct sight for free. But honestly it doesn't seem the odds high that many other customers would have the same sight/gun needs. their website does show a blade height difference between the Officers (.155"), Commander (.200") and Govt (.185") front sight. But again, the odds of them knowing which one of those is the correct height (if perfectly at all) specific for the "enhanced" Colt flat top slide is low. Hope I'm wrong. How accurate is the sight height calculation? the really sad thing is the thought of the price of yet another set of sights. I'm willing to live and learn but this is killing me I could buy another gun. __________________ lightweight, cheap, strong... pick 2

July 11, 2014, 10:50 PM	#7
Koda94 Senior Member Join Date: November 25, 2012 Location: Cascadia Posts: 1,295	Thought I would follow up with this. I got a reply from Trijicon and they requested I send them my slide for warranty repair. Turn around was 4-6 weeks and it took about 6 (my pistol has been out of service long enough over this I gave up keeping track). They replaced the front sight for free, I just got it yesterday. Unfortunately I wont be able to take it to the range for a few weeks but I am excited. I measured the height of the sight and it matches their officers dimensions (CA09). I measured my old broken (CA10) sight and compared the difference with the brownells sight calculator and they match within .001" what the calculator suggests the correct height difference should be. FWIW I dont know but its something for once that adds up. I'm pretty convinced the issue is my "enhanced" flat top slide surface sits higher than a standard round top surface. Anyways, customer service was good to me. My suggestion for any Colt "enhanced" flat top owners that want Trijicon sights to send them the slide and have them install them, that way there should be no issue or guess work since their website hasn't been revised to exclude flat top slides. __________________ lightweight, cheap, strong... pick 2

April 26, 2014, 12:41 AM	#4
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,287	What is your front sight height? A better question,how much shorter would the .160 height Trijicon Officers model sight be?You can buy just the front sight.If you talk with Trijicon...you bought their sight,it did not work out.They now have an opportunity to keep a happy customer by sending you a shorter sight at a price that still makes them the wholesale profit,but is less than retail. All you risk is a conversation.I bet you are not the first to have this problem.They have been there before,

April 26, 2014, 06:56 AM	#6
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,287	If you do the math I suggested,first measuring your sight radius,etc,it should all be quite accurate. And you can measure the height of the sight you have to get an idea. Midway or Brownells may list a replacement.

July 12, 2014, 12:00 AM	#8
DnPRK Senior Member Join Date: August 24, 2001 Location: LC, Ca Posts: 1,917	I measured my older round top commander slide and did a little math to determine how short your front sight needs to be to raise the point of impact 3" at 10 yards. You need to take off 0.048" from your CA10 front sight which is 0.20" tall. This means you need a front sight which is 0.152" tall. The Officer's CA09 front sight fits the bill as it is 0.155" tall and should get you close to your desired impact point. Proof of the pudding is to shoot it and see how it performs.

July 12, 2014, 12:11 AM	#9
Koda94 Senior Member Join Date: November 25, 2012 Location: Cascadia Posts: 1,295	DnPRK, your numbers match exactly what I got from the brownells sight calculator. However if your numbers are derrived from a round top slide it suggests that the CA10 set on the Trijicon website is wrong for all commander 1911s im surprised they havnt figured that out yet... __________________ lightweight, cheap, strong... pick 2

July 20, 2014, 11:40 PM	#10
Koda94 Senior Member Join Date: November 25, 2012 Location: Cascadia Posts: 1,295	to wrap this up. finally got some range time today and the grouping was centered on bullseye. The kit offered on the Trijicon website (CA-10) does not work for my Colt enhanced flat top commander. Their customer service was good and sending my slide into them for repair was free of charge. The new front sight height measures the same as what is shown for their officers kit. So if you own an enhanced flat top Colt Commander and want Trijicon night sights of this style I suggest having Trijicon install them means sending them your slide. I would not order them on line for a smith to install. __________________ lightweight, cheap, strong... pick 2

July 21, 2014, 12:44 AM	#11
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,287	Glad it worked out for you. I'm also glad you gave Trijicon a chance. A lot is beyond their control.For all the possible variations in a 1911 as far as tolerance stacks,its no wonder they have some POI/POA variability. I played this game with a Springfield GI spec and a frankengun I made with a Rem slide and an RIA frame.Both GI type slides with GI type sights that shot low. Fortunately,I test fired them with original sights,found they shot low,did the math,and corrected them with the Officer's model sight,coupled with a 10-8 NM rear sight.I only had to do it once,and the staking tool worked fine with a little tuning first.

July 21, 2014, 01:12 PM	#13
Koda94 Senior Member Join Date: November 25, 2012 Location: Cascadia Posts: 1,295	RickB, if that is the case then the CA-10 sights they sell on their website do not work for any commander 1911. I find it odd if that is the case.... __________________ lightweight, cheap, strong... pick 2

July 21, 2014, 02:24 PM	#14
RickB Senior Member Join Date: March 1, 2000 Location: Boise, ID Posts: 8,518	Now that I think about it, most front sight installations include a small flat milled onto a round top slide, so the sight is fully supported. In that sense, the ribbed slide would be slightly taller, as no flat has to be milled from it, and any installed sight would be effectively taller when installed on a flat-top; the gun would shoot low.