Exactly how many grains can be shoe-horned into a .44mag?

Pond, James Pond · February 10, 2014, 05:21 PM

Reading the thread on "Ruger only" loads and being a proud Ruger owner myself I decided to cast an eye over the Midway websites, looking at meaty bullets.

I found a few and that got me thinking. I've heard of and read of 310, 320 even 340gr bullets in a .44Mag, but can they go any bigger?

If so, is there any point?

totaldla · February 10, 2014, 05:52 PM

Nope. No real point. At the end of the day it is still just a handgun.

JD0x0 · February 10, 2014, 07:25 PM

There is a point. Sectional Density and penetration. If you want to penetrate deep, through heavy bone and hide, heavy (for caliber) bullets are better. It wont kill like a high velocity rifle round, but 340 grain .429 cal bullets will punch big holes, very deeply. If you're shooting at something that requires that penetration, it's a plus. If you're shooting at something that doesn't then you're simply adding recoil, IMO.

Snyper · February 10, 2014, 08:48 PM

Those really heavy .429 bullets aren't meant for the 44 Magnum.
They are better suited to a 444 Marlin

When you put them in a 44 Mag case, you lose too much powder space to gain an advantage

I'd not go bigger than an 300 in a 44 Mag, and preferably in a gun where you could seat them as far out as possible

RalphS · February 10, 2014, 09:04 PM

Pond,

I think I've explained this to you before but, anyways, here goes again -

The Redhawk has a longer cylinder than other 44 Magnums. It can hold longer (= heavier) bullets than other revolvers (S&W). S&W 29s and 629s can generally handle up to 300 grain bullets but the Redhawk can handle anything you can fit into it. People who tell you that 300 grain bullets are the maximum generally own S&W handguns. The Redhawk can hold bullets with a Nose To Crimp (NTC) measurement of .450 or .500 inches. I like to use .450. It leaves a little room in case the bullet jumps crimp, but .500 will fit.

Take advantage of the longer cylinders and find some bullets that will fill the cylinder length. Look at the beartooth bullets website and notice that the specs on the bullets include the NTC measurement.

In my 44M Redhawk with 5.5 inch barrel, I have loaded the following -
355 grain Beartooth bullet at 1221 fps
325 grain Beartooth bullet at 1324 fps
300 grain Beartooth bullet at 1389 fps

These are all very hot loads, above the maximum specified on the Hodgdon website for H-110, but well within what a Redhawk can handle. Brian Pearce has stated in Handloader that the Redhawk is the strongest gun in the Ruger line. "Ruger Only Loads" don't really stress a Redhawk too much.

I also have a 45LC Redhawk and I've tested some very hot loads in it too without ever seeing any sign of overpressure. The 45LC Redhawk cylinder is the same length at the 454 Super Redhawk (some people swap them out to make a 454 Redhawk). Load a 345 grain Beartooth Bullet with a NTC of .450 into 45LC brass and the bullet is as far forward as a 454 round would be and you can push it pretty hard too. I've pushed it to 1235 fps out of a 4 inch Redhawk 45LC.

I am not recommending that anyone else try this. My two Redhawks handle these loads just fine.

For bear protection, I think that a 325 grain bullet at about 1250 fps out of a 4 inch barrel (either 44M or 45LC, doesn't matter much to a Redhawk, or to a bear) is just about perfect. Beyond that it starts to hurt you more than the bear. My 45LC Redhawk is my "mountain" gun and Buffalo Bore sells 325 grain 45LC "+P Ruger only" ammo that clocks in at 1269 fps from my 4 inch barrel. That's what I carry but they are expensive and I only have about 25 of them left. I'll probably never use them all up but after they're gone, it'll be my handloads with either Beartooth bullets or Rimrock bullets. Buffalo Bore uses Rimrock as their bullet supplier.

Most of the time, I just shoot 240 grain bullets at about 1300 fps at the range.

Those Cast Performance 320 grain bullets on the MidwayDeutschland website have a NTC of .425 (look at the Cast Performance website for the specs). Those look pretty good to me. They would leave about 0.075 inches of clearance at the front of the RH cylinder. Or you can email Larry at MidwayUSA and ask him to export Rimrock and Beartooth bullets to MidwayDeutschland. Just tell him that there are big bears in Europe too, and people with Redhawks.

Pond, James Pond · February 11, 2014, 01:20 AM

This wasn't so much an issue of trying to find a bullet for a given purpose, but rather a conversation point prompted by what I saw online.

It started because I was looking at big cast lead bullets on Midway Germany's site and found .44 Cal 370gr bullets that were the biggest I've see in that caliber.
They were actually listed as .445 diameter so I am guessing they might be for another caliber than .44Mag (444?) but simply finding that made me think "Wow, how high will people actually go in .44 Mag?"

As it happens 355gr is now the highest I've seen.

Personally, I may be tempted, when money is a bit more forthcoming, to order a box of heavy bullets. I would be happy with 300gr, but higher could be fun such as more Cast Performance (320gr) or even the Hunter Supply 330s I also saw there.

This would, however, just be for the fun of loading a mule of a round, rather than fullfilling a role as woods load. (Unless the perform particularly well, of course!!)

Quote:

Brian Pearce has stated in Handloader that the Redhawk is the strongest gun in the Ruger line. "Ruger Only Loads" don't really stress a Redhawk too much.

Really?! Even stronger than the .44Mag SRH and SBH models? Wow!

JD0x0 · February 11, 2014, 01:34 AM

.44 mag and .444marlin bullets are often .429-.430 caliber, I suspect the bullets you found are intended for a different caliber. The heaviest cast or jacketed projectiles, I've seen in .429-430cal have been 340 grains, which a .44 mag should be able to shoot just fine.
Edit: nevermind, I found out beartooth makes a 405 grain bullet that can be sized from .429 to .432

Pond, James Pond · February 11, 2014, 06:29 AM

Quote:

I suspect the bullets you found are intended for a different caliber.

Here is the link to the Midway product page. If you can tell what caliber they might be for, please do tell because I am curious now!! It must be some kind of lever action or something at that weight, surely...

Ignore the above... The power of reading the written word is my friend and should not be ignored... Further down the page it states it is for BP shooting... So now I know

buck460XVR · February 11, 2014, 08:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pond, James Pond:

I've heard of and read of 310, 320 even 340gr bullets in a .44Mag, but can they go any bigger?

If so, is there any point?

Is there a point to going bigger than 340gr? Other than just because one can? Not really. Maybe years ago, when there was nuttin' else out there in handguns that was bigger than the .44 mag, but nowadays, there are much better options available than trying to make the .44 mag something other than what it is.

Jim Watson · February 11, 2014, 09:34 AM

1. I do not know what rifling twist Marlin now uses for .444, but they have built a lot of rifles with the 38" twist of the original .44 WCF and are limited in bullet length/weight more than a .44 Magnum with 20" twist and long cylinder.

2. The .446" diameter bullets you link to are meant for Sharps rifles, the .44-77, .44-90, and .44-100. No application in a true .43 caliber revolver.

Rifleman1776 · February 11, 2014, 10:00 AM

I have loaded, and shot, tens of thousands of rounds through my Ruger Redhawk. I have used many loads, including some I call 'whomper-stompers'. Reading your question I asked myself "Why?". A safely loaded max with 300 gr. bullets is plenty enuf for almost any walking critter. Plus it is an incredibly uncomfortable load to shoot. For me, those full loads with 300 gr. bullets, a shooting session was one cylinder. Six shots. More than that was just too unpleasant and no fun. For me, if it ain't fun, I'll quit shooting and go in the house to do something that is fun.
I know those really big handgun calibers are out there and some people actually shoot them. But, I never understood the need to have a carry-around field howizter. Each to his own.
Bottom line. Don't do it. Stick with bullets designed for the .44 mag.

eldermike · February 11, 2014, 10:27 AM

44 mag with 240 gain flat point shot from a revolver is a very good deer hunting setup. I shot one deer with a 240 HP and lost the whole exit side quarter of the deer from blood shot effect with no exit, so I went to the flat point and never looked back. I have loaded heavy bullets in 44 mag contender with no crimp but still lost case capacity based on chamber restrictions.

Pond, James Pond · February 11, 2014, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Bottom line. Don't do it. Stick with bullets designed for the .44 mag.

If I were to, in the case of Hunters Supply, it would be a box of fifty bullets for about €33, and really just for the experience of what my gun would feel like, occasionally shooting silly recoil and impressing any visiting friends who fancy shooting something that they'd never get to try back home...

RalphS · February 11, 2014, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Really?! Even stronger than the .44Mag SRH and SBH models? Wow!

In Handloader #277, Brian Pearce states that the Redhawk is stronger than the Blackhawk. He also states how much pressure a 45LC RH can handle, but I'm not going to quote him here. He is talking about the 45LC RH in this case, but the same comparison will apply to the 44M RH.

As for 44M SRH vs. 44M RH, they use the same cylinders made from the same steel so they should be equal.

There is also a back issue of Handloader #265 which contains a Pearce article on "Loads for the +P 44 Magnum" which is supposedly only for the Redhawk. I haven't read it yet, so I can't comment.

Pond, James Pond · February 11, 2014, 05:51 PM

Interesting to know as something that I've oft seen stated is that the Blackhawks are the strongest of the Ruger revolvers. I've never handled one so I can't comment, but I took it as true given most know more about guns than me!!

And with the likes of the SRH in .454, I had always assumed that the SRH would trounce the RH in the toughness stakes, but I guess the cylinder is the bit that will take the most pounding.

If I ever decide to get another big revolver, I guess I can do worse than another RH. Perhaps 7.5" next time, with the ring mounts cut in!!

Shame Ruger have removed the RH lineup from their website at the moment... I'd like to have a closer look.

All the same, feeling even more love for my gun now!!

mnoirot64 · February 11, 2014, 05:56 PM

Damn! Those are so HOT loads. I only have a little S & W 629 44 magnum.

Pond, James Pond · February 11, 2014, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Damn! Those are so HOT loads. I only have a little S & W 629 44 magnum.

They certainly are!!

Personally the best I've managed is 240gr at 1350fps from my Redhawk 4" as well as 275gr at 1150fps.

The 275 loads could have gone faster, but I decided to keep it manageable as this is my woods load and may require the need for follow-up shots.

The 240gr recoil actually feels stronger to me.

Brian Pfleuger · February 11, 2014, 07:42 PM

Quote:

If I ever decide to get another big revolver,...

Just kick it up to a .460XVR or .500SW, rather than "shoe horning" anything.

mnoirot64 · February 11, 2014, 11:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Pfleuger

Just kick it up to a .460XVR or .500SW, rather than "shoe horning" anything.

No way. My 2 5/8" S&W kicks plenty hard right now. It's a big enough hand cannon for me. Besides, if I want some serious recoil I can get out some of my big rifles - like my 338 RUM.

Pond, James Pond · February 12, 2014, 01:20 AM

Quote:

Just kick it up to a .460XVR or .500SW,

Noooo, thank you!

I may have got over my aversion to recoil with my .44 and even reached a point of embracing it, but there are limits and I think .454 would be it!!

Brian Pfleuger · February 12, 2014, 06:29 AM

Chambering only tells you part of the equation. You need to know what gun you're talking about before you worry about recoil.

Ka--Chow!

Besides, handgun recoil is fun. It doesn't hurt like a rifle does. Well... usually.

Pond, James Pond · February 12, 2014, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Chambering only tells you part of the equation. You need to know what gun you're talking about before you worry about recoil.

Ka--Chow!

Wow.. that is.. uh.. quite a "distinctive" look, isn't it?

Brian Pfleuger · February 12, 2014, 03:42 PM

Distinctively, awesomely the coolest revolver ever to appear on earth.

madmo44mag · February 12, 2014, 04:05 PM

Brian Pfleuger is correct.
Buy a larger gun vs overloading a cartridge.
Back when I started playing with the 44mag the 454 Casual was all there was other than specialty guns built off Ruger frames and very costly.
If I was still into punishment as I once was I would buy a S&W500.
As to the OP question you can shoe horn a lot more 2400 under a 240gn bullet than any manual lists.
There are other powders than will work an allow more room in the case but 2400 seems to work the best with the 240gn bullet.
IMR 4227 also works well.
As bullet size increases you have to change powders and where you crimp the bullet at. That's where you start to run into problems in other brand revolvers - not enough room in the cyl.
With a 340 + grain bullet it starts getting tricky.
Now you have to match the powder burn rate to max psi and still maintain a max OAL.
Over charging a cartridge is a lot like wildcatting a new round.
There is always a chance something bad could happen.

madmo44mag · February 12, 2014, 04:10 PM

OMG .460XVR
Holly magnum rounds!!!!!

I thought my Rugger 44mag with a 10 inch bull barrel was heavy.
That thing uses a bi-pod.

I bet you pull that out at the range and everyone is down on you lane looking.

February 10, 2014, 05:21 PM	#1
Pond, James Pond Senior Member Join Date: July 12, 2011 Location: Top of the Baltic stack Posts: 6,079	Exactly how many grains can be shoe-horned into a .44mag? Reading the thread on "Ruger only" loads and being a proud Ruger owner myself I decided to cast an eye over the Midway websites, looking at meaty bullets. I found a few and that got me thinking. I've heard of and read of 310, 320 even 340gr bullets in a .44Mag, but can they go any bigger? If so, is there any point? __________________ When the right to effective self-defence is denied, that right to self-defence which remains is essentially symbolic. Freedom: Please enjoy responsibly.

February 10, 2014, 08:48 PM	#4
Snyper Senior Member Join Date: December 16, 2013 Location: Eastern NC Posts: 3,047	Those really heavy .429 bullets aren't meant for the 44 Magnum. They are better suited to a 444 Marlin When you put them in a 44 Mag case, you lose too much powder space to gain an advantage I'd not go bigger than an 300 in a 44 Mag, and preferably in a gun where you could seat them as far out as possible __________________ One shot, one kill

February 10, 2014, 09:04 PM	#5
RalphS Senior Member Join Date: December 24, 2010 Posts: 111	Pond, I think I've explained this to you before but, anyways, here goes again - The Redhawk has a longer cylinder than other 44 Magnums. It can hold longer (= heavier) bullets than other revolvers (S&W). S&W 29s and 629s can generally handle up to 300 grain bullets but the Redhawk can handle anything you can fit into it. People who tell you that 300 grain bullets are the maximum generally own S&W handguns. The Redhawk can hold bullets with a Nose To Crimp (NTC) measurement of .450 or .500 inches. I like to use .450. It leaves a little room in case the bullet jumps crimp, but .500 will fit. Take advantage of the longer cylinders and find some bullets that will fill the cylinder length. Look at the beartooth bullets website and notice that the specs on the bullets include the NTC measurement. In my 44M Redhawk with 5.5 inch barrel, I have loaded the following - 355 grain Beartooth bullet at 1221 fps 325 grain Beartooth bullet at 1324 fps 300 grain Beartooth bullet at 1389 fps These are all very hot loads, above the maximum specified on the Hodgdon website for H-110, but well within what a Redhawk can handle. Brian Pearce has stated in Handloader that the Redhawk is the strongest gun in the Ruger line. "Ruger Only Loads" don't really stress a Redhawk too much. I also have a 45LC Redhawk and I've tested some very hot loads in it too without ever seeing any sign of overpressure. The 45LC Redhawk cylinder is the same length at the 454 Super Redhawk (some people swap them out to make a 454 Redhawk). Load a 345 grain Beartooth Bullet with a NTC of .450 into 45LC brass and the bullet is as far forward as a 454 round would be and you can push it pretty hard too. I've pushed it to 1235 fps out of a 4 inch Redhawk 45LC. I am not recommending that anyone else try this. My two Redhawks handle these loads just fine. For bear protection, I think that a 325 grain bullet at about 1250 fps out of a 4 inch barrel (either 44M or 45LC, doesn't matter much to a Redhawk, or to a bear) is just about perfect. Beyond that it starts to hurt you more than the bear. My 45LC Redhawk is my "mountain" gun and Buffalo Bore sells 325 grain 45LC "+P Ruger only" ammo that clocks in at 1269 fps from my 4 inch barrel. That's what I carry but they are expensive and I only have about 25 of them left. I'll probably never use them all up but after they're gone, it'll be my handloads with either Beartooth bullets or Rimrock bullets. Buffalo Bore uses Rimrock as their bullet supplier. Most of the time, I just shoot 240 grain bullets at about 1300 fps at the range. Those Cast Performance 320 grain bullets on the MidwayDeutschland website have a NTC of .425 (look at the Cast Performance website for the specs). Those look pretty good to me. They would leave about 0.075 inches of clearance at the front of the RH cylinder. Or you can email Larry at MidwayUSA and ask him to export Rimrock and Beartooth bullets to MidwayDeutschland. Just tell him that there are big bears in Europe too, and people with Redhawks. Last edited by RalphS; February 10, 2014 at 09:39 PM.

February 11, 2014, 05:51 PM	#15
Pond, James Pond Senior Member Join Date: July 12, 2011 Location: Top of the Baltic stack Posts: 6,079	Interesting to know as something that I've oft seen stated is that the Blackhawks are the strongest of the Ruger revolvers. I've never handled one so I can't comment, but I took it as true given most know more about guns than me!! And with the likes of the SRH in .454, I had always assumed that the SRH would trounce the RH in the toughness stakes, but I guess the cylinder is the bit that will take the most pounding. If I ever decide to get another big revolver, I guess I can do worse than another RH. Perhaps 7.5" next time, with the ring mounts cut in!! Shame Ruger have removed the RH lineup from their website at the moment... I'd like to have a closer look. All the same, feeling even more love for my gun now!! __________________ When the right to effective self-defence is denied, that right to self-defence which remains is essentially symbolic. Freedom: Please enjoy responsibly.

February 11, 2014, 05:56 PM	#16
mnoirot64 Senior Member Join Date: September 9, 2013 Location: Clarksville, Tennessee Posts: 365	Damn! Those are so HOT loads. I only have a little S & W 629 44 magnum. __________________ Michael Noirot Life Member - NRA Clarksville, Tennessee

February 10, 2014, 05:52 PM	#2
totaldla Senior Member Join Date: August 10, 2009 Location: SW Idaho Posts: 1,288	Nope. No real point. At the end of the day it is still just a handgun. __________________ Lee Auto Bench Prime Castor Oil Case Lube

February 10, 2014, 07:25 PM	#3
JD0x0 Senior Member Join Date: January 30, 2013 Posts: 1,037	There is a point. Sectional Density and penetration. If you want to penetrate deep, through heavy bone and hide, heavy (for caliber) bullets are better. It wont kill like a high velocity rifle round, but 340 grain .429 cal bullets will punch big holes, very deeply. If you're shooting at something that requires that penetration, it's a plus. If you're shooting at something that doesn't then you're simply adding recoil, IMO.

February 11, 2014, 01:34 AM	#7
JD0x0 Senior Member Join Date: January 30, 2013 Posts: 1,037	.44 mag and .444marlin bullets are often .429-.430 caliber, I suspect the bullets you found are intended for a different caliber. The heaviest cast or jacketed projectiles, I've seen in .429-430cal have been 340 grains, which a .44 mag should be able to shoot just fine. Edit: nevermind, I found out beartooth makes a 405 grain bullet that can be sized from .429 to .432

February 11, 2014, 09:34 AM	#10
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,528	1. I do not know what rifling twist Marlin now uses for .444, but they have built a lot of rifles with the 38" twist of the original .44 WCF and are limited in bullet length/weight more than a .44 Magnum with 20" twist and long cylinder. 2. The .446" diameter bullets you link to are meant for Sharps rifles, the .44-77, .44-90, and .44-100. No application in a true .43 caliber revolver.

February 11, 2014, 10:00 AM	#11
Rifleman1776 Senior Member Join Date: April 25, 2010 Location: Arkansas Posts: 3,309	I have loaded, and shot, tens of thousands of rounds through my Ruger Redhawk. I have used many loads, including some I call 'whomper-stompers'. Reading your question I asked myself "Why?". A safely loaded max with 300 gr. bullets is plenty enuf for almost any walking critter. Plus it is an incredibly uncomfortable load to shoot. For me, those full loads with 300 gr. bullets, a shooting session was one cylinder. Six shots. More than that was just too unpleasant and no fun. For me, if it ain't fun, I'll quit shooting and go in the house to do something that is fun. I know those really big handgun calibers are out there and some people actually shoot them. But, I never understood the need to have a carry-around field howizter. Each to his own. Bottom line. Don't do it. Stick with bullets designed for the .44 mag.

February 11, 2014, 10:27 AM	#12
eldermike Senior Member Join Date: January 24, 2013 Location: NC Posts: 545	44 mag with 240 gain flat point shot from a revolver is a very good deer hunting setup. I shot one deer with a 240 HP and lost the whole exit side quarter of the deer from blood shot effect with no exit, so I went to the flat point and never looked back. I have loaded heavy bullets in 44 mag contender with no crimp but still lost case capacity based on chamber restrictions.

February 12, 2014, 06:29 AM	#21
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	Chambering only tells you part of the equation. You need to know what gun you're talking about before you worry about recoil. Ka--Chow! Besides, handgun recoil is fun. It doesn't hurt like a rifle does. Well... usually. __________________ Nobody plans to screw up their lives... ...they just don't plan not to. -Andy Stanley

February 12, 2014, 03:42 PM	#23
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	Distinctively, awesomely the coolest revolver ever to appear on earth. __________________ Nobody plans to screw up their lives... ...they just don't plan not to. -Andy Stanley

February 12, 2014, 04:05 PM	#24
madmo44mag Senior Member Join Date: December 29, 2008 Location: Ft.Worth, Texas Posts: 1,522	Brian Pfleuger is correct. Buy a larger gun vs overloading a cartridge. Back when I started playing with the 44mag the 454 Casual was all there was other than specialty guns built off Ruger frames and very costly. If I was still into punishment as I once was I would buy a S&W500. As to the OP question you can shoe horn a lot more 2400 under a 240gn bullet than any manual lists. There are other powders than will work an allow more room in the case but 2400 seems to work the best with the 240gn bullet. IMR 4227 also works well. As bullet size increases you have to change powders and where you crimp the bullet at. That's where you start to run into problems in other brand revolvers - not enough room in the cyl. With a 340 + grain bullet it starts getting tricky. Now you have to match the powder burn rate to max psi and still maintain a max OAL. Over charging a cartridge is a lot like wildcatting a new round. There is always a chance something bad could happen. __________________ Texas - Not just a state but an attitude! For monthly shooting events in DFW visit http://www.meetup.com/TexasGunOwner-DFW

February 12, 2014, 04:10 PM	#25
madmo44mag Senior Member Join Date: December 29, 2008 Location: Ft.Worth, Texas Posts: 1,522	OMG .460XVR Holly magnum rounds!!!!! I thought my Rugger 44mag with a 10 inch bull barrel was heavy. That thing uses a bi-pod. I bet you pull that out at the range and everyone is down on you lane looking. __________________ Texas - Not just a state but an attitude! For monthly shooting events in DFW visit http://www.meetup.com/TexasGunOwner-DFW

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