Can FFFg powder be used in a flintlock in place of FFg?

[Uncle Billy]

I'll bet this question has been asked and answered a lot here, but here it is again anyway:

I have about 6 or 7 pounds of FFFg but very little FFg. Can I use the finer powder in a flintlock rifle? If so, should I use the same amount of powder as with the coarser grain size? I understand the burn time will be shorter, but it's pretty short anyhow, with black powder.

This brings up a question: Like most everyone else's powder measure, mine is graduated in grains but measures by volume, not weight. Does a volume of FFFg have more weight than an equal volume of FFg? This is easy to check out of course, but I'm sitting at my computer and not in my gun space. My guess is that it isn't a significant difference, otherwise the powder measures would have to be calibrated for different grades of coarseness.

[w_houle]

What size gun do you plan to shoot?

[Mike OTDP]

3F should work OK. I'd cut the charge by 20%, work back up from there. And yes, a lot depends on the caliber. .69 and .75 muskets really need the 2F. Anything smaller will work fine with 3F.

[Scout]

Mike is correct. I used 3f for a long time in a HAWKEN .50. No problems.

[MacGille]

Sure, shoot it up. works fine.

[brian45auto]

Does a volume of FFFg have more weight than an equal volume of FFg?

in theory yes.
finer grains of powder=more powder, less air space.
the finer the grain the faster it burns=more pressure. about 10% faster.
i had always read that 3f could be used up to .50cal, anything over that should stick with 2f or larger.

the 3f can also be used in pans as priming powder in flintlocks. mine did'nt like the 3f/3f, so it's 2f/4f for me.


side note.
i load 45colt with holy black. depending what i have the most of is what i use.
i get about 35grains in the casing. the 3f produces about 100fps more than the 2f, 750/850 fps at the muzzle with a 250gr cast bullet from a 5.5" barrel.

[Uncle Billy]

Thanks, everyone, for your advice. The rifle I was particularly asking about is a .54 Hawken so apparently using the FFFg in it would be okay. I haven't shot this one (or any other guns) for about 15 years and so need to start over to work up a charge that's accurate and goes "BOOM!" loud enough (I LIKE the noise and smoke and drama of flintlocks. I'm not real popular at my shooting range though, especially on days there isn't a breeze.) My Charleville replica (.69) will have to wait for FFg.

Has anyone bought black powder off the Internet? I found the Powder, Inc. website, which brings up a bunch of new questions. I used to just use GOEX powders exclusively in all my flintlocks. Now, on this website, I find a number of different brands or types. Can someone explain what the difference is between Goex and Goex Express?

I found a comparison test of Goex vs. KIK and Elephant powders...

Goex vs. KIK vs. Elephant powder comparison

... which boils down to staying with Goex for me, I think. Does anyone have experience with those other powders vs. Goex?

[B.L.E.]

Don't rule out FFFg even in the bigger bores. I have gotten excellent patterns using 3f in my 12 gauge shotgun and also when loading my 8 gauge shotgun with 12 gauge loads.

[arcticap]

Can someone explain what the difference is between Goex and Goex Express?

Reply #3: http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/...p?topic=5252.0

When GOEX was developing the Express Powder they sent samples to me to be tested. I looked mainly at the particle size of the charcoal to see if the change in processing had the desired effect.

The Express powder is faster than the regular GOEX. Same raw materials in the same proportions as the regular powder. Just run in the ball mill longer and then in the wheel mill longer to reduce the ingredient particle size which then speeds up the burn rate.

A goodly number of BP cartridge shooters have used the Express Powder with good results.

If you are shooting patched balls I would lean towards the Swiss.

When GOEX developed the Express they had several bp cartridge shooters look at it. They told GOEX that it was as good as the Swiss. So GOEX set the price of the Express right up there with the Swiss. Or even higher out of some distributors. But the GOEX Express CANNOT give the moist burning that one will see with the Swiss in a patched ball rifle. In my .50 Lyman Trade Rifle the Express gave a more manageable fouling. I shot the Express and regular production on the same day in the same gun. The regular production powder gave me a tar-like residue on the damp between shot patches. The fouling from the Express was more soluble in the moisture in the cleaning patch so it was not tar-like. But even that fouling was not as easy to deal with as with the Swiss and Schuetzen shot on the same day, same gun.

E. Ogre

[Buck Conner]

I have been shooting blackpowder since 1955, we even made our own when supplies were short.

For years we used the standard "rules" of Dixie Gun Works (they where the guys in the know). .50 caliber was the cut off point between using 3F and 2F powder, (anything larger than .52 caliber was to use 2F and anything smaller than .48 caliber was for 3F powder). If you had a .50 caliber you could safetly use either one per Turner Kirkland's writings. Same with the use of 4F for priming powder only, period.

As time passed I really got into researching what our forefather's used, reading old journals and anything that had been written about their life and how things were done. The more I researched, shared my findings and studied these areas of those that went before us. I found that many shot what they had and used only one powder for shooting and priming. There went the theory we grew up with and Hollywood showed us with Davey carrying two horns, etc.

All that said I will tell you what we have found, "we" meaning a dozen active top competition experienced black powder shooters. I'm not by any means in this group other than having shot and tested theories on the above mentioned subject with them.

For the last 30 years I along with many others have carried just one horn with 3F Goex powder used for shooting as well as priming. We shoot the same 3F powder in our small bores (smallest is a .29 cal. org.) to the largest a .62 cal. smoothbore.

WARNING this is not recommended by the manufacturers - as we all know someone will not use good judgement in their loadings.

I work with each caliber of gun I have to get the load that the gun shoots best. EXAMPLE Starting with say a .50 caliber I would use 50 grains of 3F and workup from there, usually ending up with around 78 to 80 grains of burned powder.

A good testing device is some old bed sheets or if testing in winter a fresh field of snow. Your looking for unburned powder blown out the end of the barrel onto the sheets or clean snow. You'll see a spray that looks like black pepper if your over loaded. That's when you reduce your load a few grains and test again until you have very little spray of unburned powder. Simple to do but very timely in the testing and most don't want to do this because of that. Usually you'll find that you are shooting 10 to 15 grains less of 3F compared to 2F.

I teach basic muzzle loading classes and every class we will have guys that read the instructions on their gun and tell us they shoot 150 grains or more in their in-lines. You try and explain to them that they can kill about anything in North America with a lighter charge. What they are reading is what the gun was proofed at, why proof the gun every shot? Some listen and most don't because their manual said.....

Common sense and some research will go a long way in getting the desired load you want for what you are shooting and hunting. Good luck.

[Noz]

I buy from Powder, Inc. I like the KIK that they are selling now. It seems to have fewer "fines" than the GOEX. I've never felt the need for Swiss.

[Uncle Billy]

Looks like I can use 3F in my .54 Hawken, starting with about 50 grains and working up slowly. I'm more interested in accuracy than killing power since I don't use this gun for hunting. The Charleville .69 musket isn't much different- I don't need a high-power load in this one either, really just enough to get the balls reliably within a reasonable group at 50 yards. The charge weight probably has less to do with the group size than the fact that there's no real sights on it, so it's "point" and not "aim". I'll experiment with 3F in the musket, starting with a pretty light load- I use 80 grains of 2F in it which groups reasonably well, given that a smoothbore isn't meant to be a sniper's weapon, and that's not a heavy load for the caliber, I think. I'll start with 50 or 60 grains of 3F and see what happens.

Looks like I'll be making some smoke at the range, always an enjoyable afternoon or two.

Thanks for the information, guys.

[Buck Conner]

Looks like I can use 3F in my .54 Hawken, starting with about 50 grains and working up slowly. I'm more interested in accuracy than killing power since I don't use this gun for hunting. The Charleville .69 musket isn't much different-........... I'll experiment with 3F in the musket, starting with a pretty light load- I use 80 grains of 2F in it which groups reasonably well, .... and that's not a heavy load for the caliber, I think. I'll start with 50 or 60 grains of 3F and see what happens.

You used the correct term "experiment" and do experiment carefully. Don't get in a hurry, you'll find what each gun likes and may find as I have with 3F it cleans up easier in my guns hopefully yours too?

[B.L.E.]

For the last 30 years I along with many others have carried just one horn with 3F Goex powder used for shooting as well as priming. We shoot the same 3F powder in our small bores (smallest is a .29 cal. org.) to the largest a .62 cal. smoothbore.

I was shooting a flintlock pistol match and I ran out of FFFFg powder in my priming horn so I just finished the match using the same FFFg powder to load and prime. Really, I could barely tell the difference in ignition time.