March 28, 2011, 08:49 AM | #1 |
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Home invasion by cops?
http://beta.app.com/article/BZ/20110...23/1401/NEWS05
We are trained to lay down our firearms whenever police arrive and follow their orders while we explain the stiuation, This could catch you off guard very easilly. You could easilly think is was real cops who targeted the wrong house. how do we prepare for this? Last edited by Overhill; March 28, 2011 at 09:04 AM. |
March 28, 2011, 09:05 AM | #2 |
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This comes up from time to time. With that said, I am not trained to lay down my gun ever. I have never had surrender training.
Our local street cops and deputies don't do dynamic entries, generally speaking. They get their SWAT guys to do it. If folks are doing a dynamic entry and aren't SWAT, then they likely aren't cops, regardless of what they say. They won't be coming with just 2 guys either. I realize that this isn't a perfect criterion, but then again, there is no reason for cops to be coming into my home either.
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March 28, 2011, 10:41 AM | #3 |
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This is why a door brace is an essential item for every outside facing door in one's home.
http://www.amazon.com/Mace-80115-MAC...1326721&sr=8-1 It will buy you the extra seconds needed to get level headed and draw. This is also why it is really important to carry 24x7. It doesn't have to be a cannon. Even a little 22LR on your person will allow you to fire a couple of shots to let you get to the heavy iron.
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March 28, 2011, 11:29 AM | #4 |
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Unless you are living where you have Andy and Barney for police protection I would have to agree with Double Naught Spy's assessment.
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March 28, 2011, 11:39 AM | #5 | |
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March 28, 2011, 12:14 PM | #6 | ||
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Quote:
Quote:
For a long discussion of this topic, this very month, see this thread.
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March 28, 2011, 01:09 PM | #7 | |
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There are a host of other preventative measures, but this isn't the thread for it. You made a good point that police entries are generally made by SWAT. A good clue is when the "police" is wearing hoodies.
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March 28, 2011, 03:34 PM | #8 |
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Quit watching the training videos which tell you to surrender. (COPS, MOST SHOCKING, police chases, etc..)
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March 28, 2011, 04:02 PM | #9 | |
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March 28, 2011, 04:06 PM | #10 | |
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Oh, wait, the real address was to your neighbors house, nevermind. |
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March 28, 2011, 04:13 PM | #11 |
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Here's a wrinkle: how about the police executing a no-notice on the wrong home...specifically, YOUR home .... based on faulty intel?
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March 28, 2011, 04:15 PM | #12 |
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I was always told to make sure the warrant is signed. Because cops will try to bust in your house, and show you a unsigned warrant.
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March 28, 2011, 04:24 PM | #13 | |
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It does happen,,,
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My friend, there ain't no way to prepare for that type of random event,,, But I'm fairly certain that the last thing I am going to do is start blasting away. I have my bedroom pistol in a rail holster,,, When they make it to my bedroom all they will find is,,, A fat middle-aged man cowering against the wall under his covers,,, With a 16 round magazine inserted into a CZ-75B ready to shoot through the sheets. If they are cops I will drop the pistol on the mattress and surrender,,, If they are bad guys I'll probably go out in a big blaze of glory,,, But the point is I ain't shooting until I know who they are. The last thing I want to do (as a man who wants to survive) is shoot at cops,,, Them boys will kill you in a heartbeat and get away with it as well. Aarond
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March 28, 2011, 05:00 PM | #14 | |
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Just clarifying that it's probably a good idea to listen to the ordinary, plain janed, uniformed police unless you determine they are posers. Don't pay as much attention to the uniform as their actions. If the door of your house has been kicked in and people are in your house, but they've not announced themselves as Police, then you've probably got serious problems. |
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March 28, 2011, 05:34 PM | #15 | ||
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+1 what 5Whiskey said. Exigent circumstances can and do happen, though that's not that common and most places that kind of response is the realm of uniformed patrol officers, not detectives or other folks in plain clothes.
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Which suggests some broader ideas on how not to be the victim of this sort of thing beyond just not working in the drug trade. There was another thread recently about the Florida beauty queen who shot a home invasion robber -- good on her for the shooting, but she and her fiance pretty much painted a huge target on themselves.
All of which doesn't just say "I am wealthy" but "I have cash and serious jewelry on hand in my residence." The former doesn't really jazz up home invasion robbers, I wouldn't think -- you're not likely to commit go to jail forever level felonies on a fishing expedition that might pay off. The latter, apparently, does attract the attention of such folks. So people should ask themselves what can the pizza delivery guy tell about you when you come to the door to pay? If you've got teenage kids -- what do their friends know about what you have and where you keep it? Does anyone else have routine access to the inside of your house for legitimate reasons who might see things that might attract burglars or robbers? (Guns accessible outside a safe? Prescription narcotics or other pharmaceuticals? Evidence of other valuables?) Quote:
It's a tough scene anyway you slice it though -- and lots of room for very bad decisions to be made in a few split seconds on both sides. Thankfully it happens very rarely, and when it does the people doing the raid are almost always unmistakably police. |
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March 28, 2011, 05:37 PM | #16 | ||
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March 28, 2011, 05:44 PM | #17 |
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Here's a wrinkle: how about the police executing a no-notice on the wrong home...specifically, YOUR home .... based on faulty intel?
------------------ It happens far too often ... http://www.cato.org/raidmap/ |
March 28, 2011, 06:03 PM | #18 | |
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The police end of it happening, well, you dont hear it "all" the time, but you hear it enough to know whats being referred to without to much surprise. A quick call to 911 (if you have it) should settle things pretty quick, if theres time. A good reason to have an early warning system either way. |
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March 28, 2011, 06:09 PM | #19 |
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One thing you can do in circumstances where you have people representing themselves as police pounding on your door or forcing their way in is to call 911, tell them you think you might be the victim of a home invasion robbery, leave the line open and comply with the officers or maybe officers demands.
If it is a legitimate raid, the open line to 911 would create at least a limited additional recording of what occurred above and beyond whatever audio the officers on scene are running. That might be beneficial if it's a case of mistaken addresses or whatever. If it's not a legitimate raid you'll get a police response. The one vaguely similar call I was on our dispatchers had patrol officers en route as soon as they got a report of something that might be law enforcement activity or maybe not, while they double checked with our cool kids (drug unit, gang unit, etc) and called federal agencies, other local LE agencies, etc., to make sure there wasn't some sort of miscommunication. So at least in that one case, reaction time wasn't even altered from what it normally would be. |
March 28, 2011, 06:39 PM | #20 |
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Police accidentally doing a no-knock raid on your house is a terrible situation to be in. For one you probably aren't expecting police to be busting down your door. At least if you are dealin dope you can expect the police bust in. Two you won't know what the hell is going on and will probably be diving for the closest firearm. Three you won't know its the real police, unless you really believe someone kicking in your door yelling "police". They don't usually kick in innocent peoples doors.
The hot setup is to have your exterior doors fortified, and potentially your bedroom door fortified and locked while you sleep. Cops gotta tear down the outside door which will wake you, then they gotta tear down the bedroom door which will take much longer. Hopefully by then you realize what the hell is going on, but still do you surrender? Start screaming that you have a firearm and to back the hell off! Chances are if they start hammering on a bedroom door, can't get it open cause the damn thing is solid has a deadbolt and a metal frame, then are hearing someone screaming about loaded guns they will stop. Innocent people have shot police during erroneous no-knock raids, then later been convicted with their murders. Police have shot and killed innocent people during erroneous no knock raids. It happens... wrong address. "oops!" |
March 28, 2011, 07:31 PM | #21 |
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Law enforcement in my area won't do a dynamic entry but they are very good at waiting for the suspect(s) to leave the residence and then handling them.
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March 28, 2011, 09:22 PM | #22 |
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What about this situation,
Happened to a co-worker/friend. He's working off a cold and had taken some over the counter medicine that helped him sleep, after midnight he hears pounding on his bedroom door (door's locked) and sees lights shining through the gap at the bottom, he lives alone and no one should have been in his house. In his stupor he walks to the door not fully comprehending what's going on and he hears "Police, Open the door", he opens the door and standing in his hallway with weapons drawn and lights on him are three cops, he's standing there in his underwear when they make him go prone and cuff him, when they cleared the house and found out he's the owner they asked him why did he call 911 and hung up? He tells them he didn't call. He finds out that when they called back all they got was the noise of a fax line, he tells them the only land line to the house is the fax and he uses his cell phone for all other calls. He told me that in his condition he completely forgot about his gun on the bedside and thinks that they would have shot him if he'd opened the bedroom door with a gun in his hand. The police said they knocked on the front door and when they didn't get a response they walked around the house and forced the back door open to gain entry. He decided not to pursue the actions of the police that night, he felt lucky enough not to have been shot. |
March 28, 2011, 11:04 PM | #23 |
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We've worked with SWAT, and one of their commanders offered the following about real vs. fake cops crashing your front door. This is something that has happened in Arizona lately. (either way, real cop or not, you have to decide what are the consequences if you 'chose wrong' with how you're going to respond)
In many jurisdictions, warrants can't be served late at night, which can be a big hint if they show up at 3 AM. Real cops should have matching gear that looks high quality (vs. a $5 POLICE T-shirt) and a cheesy .25 cal saturday night special. He noted he was not aware of any instances where real US cops carried AK-47's, a weapon some fake cops have used. The SWAT guys will be virtually identically dressed with Kevlar helmets and $5K Motorola radios. Real cops serving a warrant will likely have sporadic traffic on their radio. Additionally, real cops typically arrive in real cop cars, either themselves, or just in front of a traffic cop in a cruiser to dissuade onlookers from getting too close. For non-high risk warrants that don't require the full SWAT team, you might have 2 or 3 SWAT guys serving it in something short of full battle gear. Warrant servers have on occasion allowed the subject, often barricaded, to call 911 to verify they were real, generally in drug / kidnapping situations. The challenge / potential downside is that unless you're really sure, I'd be very careful trying to kinetically challenge the intruders on very short notice. I would expect most TFL'ers could shoot better than the average street cop and certainly the average thug, but I expect few could out shoot the SWAT guys in a tactical situation of their choosing. May each of you never have to find out.
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March 29, 2011, 03:55 AM | #24 |
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Some of the things you've listed TXAZ might be be so easy to verify in a dynamic situation. Especially where taking a peek outside might work counter to the idea behind a cautionary glance.
The full tactical SWAT scenario is another moot point for reasons regarding when it's applicable. Few here would voice a concern for violent drug dealers accidentally getting shot when answering their door armed because they failed to realise it was a real police force knocking. Now this main point might sound like a flame comment but the belief should always be, the police are on the backfoot. If at times it means sometimes a police officer cannot mirror a citizens right to defend themselves in time (get off a shot despite being drawn) then that should be part of the job. Yes, that is a very terrible thing to say. It does however stand to reason as reason (and the paper work that follows) distinguishes a vigilante from a police force. As do the greater numbers as the term force implies. All of that should be part of the job. In turn it should mean that for the officers involved they should receive a greater amount of respect from the public for their service. The point of this little sanctimonious sermon is simply that some police and the law makers behind them, have conveniently forgotten that. They have also forgotten the countless police officers that haven't forgotten this (some paying the ultimate price). Getting to the point and it's this: Sometimes an officer might startle someone in their own home who is armed and then suffers an injury or death. That might be a tragedy if the address wasn't the right one, but that should be the risk of the job. That should be the direction events flow in. As the saying goes citizens shouldn't be afraid of their governments etc. The little addition to that would be citizens should also become grateful for governments. All imho. |
March 30, 2011, 11:09 PM | #25 |
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Shoot the cops? Great plan of action. Thanks for sharing. Next time be sure to compete the circle by including the expected response to that.
-- As for what to do should the police make a dynamic entry into your home, presumably because they believe they should be doing so, mistaken or not? Remember, we're talking about people that you believe to be the police. There's really no good advice to offer other than to comply at that point.
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