Do Not Leave Titegroup in Your Powder Measure

zxcvbob · August 3, 2010, 09:19 PM

(I also posted this at THR)
I leave one of my powder measures full of Red Dot powder all the time. I've never had any problems with it. Well, I left a few ounces of Titegroup in another measure for a couple of months, then used it to load some .357 Magnums. I knew the powder might discolor the plastic hopper on the measure, but I didn't think it would hurt the powder. I had three squibs out of less than a dozen rounds.

One of them really blackened the outside of the brass, so I *know* that one had powder. I pulled all the rest of the bullets from that lot when I got home and every cartridge had powder.

The rest of that powder will end up burned in a little pile in the backyard later tonight. If it wll burn. Now I gotta get the DEWC bullet out that's stuck in the barrel. It made it an inch past the forcing cone into the barrel proper, so it's gonna be tough pounding it out. I couldn't drive it out at the range using a brass rod, but I didn't have a real hammer with me. (might have to go to the gunsmith)

Longdayjake · August 3, 2010, 09:23 PM

I find that tightgroup needs to be properly shaken before you put it into a measure. Where I live it tends to "clump" if you let is sit for too long. This can result in a light charge until the clumps get shaken loose. I doubt there is anything wrong with the powder but rather your loading practices. No offense, I had to learn that lesson myself.

zxcvbob · August 3, 2010, 09:52 PM

You're probably right. They all had powder when I pulled the bullets, but most didn't really look like enough powder. At least it was only one box of 50.

I may give the Titegroup another chance; but only on the single stage press when I can inspect every single round before I seat the bullet.

jimbob86 · August 3, 2010, 10:03 PM

IIRC, there was something about storing propellants in their original containers (as opposed to your powder measure) in ..... lemmee see here ..... every sigle one of my manuals?

Longdayjake · August 3, 2010, 11:04 PM

Quote:

IIRC, there as something about storing propellants in their original containers (as opposed to your powder measure) in ..... lemmee see here ..... everyone of my manuals?

I may just be in the mood to argue a little (sorry...law student)

But I think that has more to do with confusing one powder with another than it does with making a powder inert.

Doby45 · August 3, 2010, 11:10 PM

I concur.

**Mal H** · August 3, 2010, 11:42 PM

I don't fully concur with that. While maintaining a powder's identity is certainly one of the main reasons for keeping powders in their proper container, it isn't the only reason. Some powders can oxidize and some powders are hygroscopic. Keeping a powder in a measure for a long period of time may expose it to the atmosphere and allow it to be affected by either or both of those undesirable effects. If the measure doesn't have an air tight cap (most don't) it is subject to a continuously changing environment.

Clark · August 3, 2010, 11:58 PM

Power Pistol eats into the green hopper of an RCBS uniflow powder measure.

Most of the 35 powders I use I can tell the difference by looking and smelling.

But Power Pistol [formerly known as Bullseye 84] and Bullseye look the same.

If there is a confusion between those two powders, I measure density. Power Pistol is measurably denser.

troy_mclure · August 4, 2010, 04:39 AM

i only have 1 measure, and live in high humidity zone, so i always empty my measure.

Sport45 · August 4, 2010, 05:21 AM

I empty my measures too.

Are any smokeless propellants subject to degradation by light? I've never seen powder packaged in anything but black plastic or metal cans from the factory.

Quote:

I leave one of my powder measures full of Red Dot powder all the time. I've never had any problems with it. Well, I left a few ounces of Titegroup in another measure for a couple of months, then used it to load some .357 Magnums. I knew the powder might discolor the plastic hopper on the measure, but I didn't think it would hurt the powder. I had three squibs out of less than a dozen rounds.

Are you SURE it was Titegroup left in the measure?

Longdayjake · August 4, 2010, 08:35 AM

Quote:

Some powders can oxidize and some powders are hygroscopic. Keeping a powder in a measure for a long period of time may expose it to the atmosphere and allow it to be affected by either or both of those undesirable effects. If the measure doesn't have an air tight cap (most don't) it is subject to a continuously changing environment.

Sounds like someone who knows more than me was able to make me sound a little foolish. Thanks for the alternative explanation. I think that maybe I am still a little young to just take everyone's word for something. I always want to ask why.

WESHOOT2 · August 4, 2010, 08:56 AM

I've had W231 in one measure for over fifteen years; I just keep adding more.....

Yes, I gotta lotta measures....

jmorris · August 4, 2010, 09:33 AM

I reload inside and only empty a measure when I change the caliber that I am loading. Never had any problems with titegroup or any other powder for that matter.

BigJimP · August 4, 2010, 11:11 AM

I don't believe its an inherent problem in "TiteGroup" ...but it might be a problem with the humidity, etc in your reloading area / or something got bumped / or somebody inadvertently touched something on the press .../stuff does happen when your'e not looking ....curious grandkids, a cat jumped up on the reloading bench, all kinds of stuff .....

Powder drops are critical / and its important to always check them whenever you start the press on a new reloading day ( whether you leave powder in the original container or in the hopper on the press ).

Glad you didn't damage a gun or hurt yourself ....there are lessons learned here ...

dahermit · August 4, 2010, 11:17 AM

We old timers might remember the piece Skeeter Skelton published about "Skelton's Cow Killer Loads", back in the late '60's. Turns out he left some pistol powder (I think it was Unique, but cannot be sure), in a powder measure for a long time and the subsequent loads using it would not penetrate the skull of a broken-leg cow he was asked to dispatch. Whether or not you believe that powder will degenerate in a plastic hopper, the hoppers will become discolored in a short time while in contact with the powder suggesting that some chemical action is going on there, if not photo-reaction.

zxcvbob · August 4, 2010, 12:25 PM

Quote:

I've had W231 in one measure for over fifteen years; I just keep adding more.....

I do that with Red Dot (Promo) but I'm more careful to watch that powder because it is large flakes.

Quote:

I don't believe its an inherent problem in "TiteGroup" ...but it might be a problem with the humidity, etc in your reloading area / or something got bumped / or somebody inadvertently touched something on the press .../stuff does happen when your'e not looking ....curious grandkids, a cat jumped up on the reloading bench, all kinds of stuff .....

Powder drops are critical / and its important to always check them whenever you start the press on a new reloading day ( whether you leave powder in the original container or in the hopper on the press ).

Glad you didn't damage a gun or hurt yourself ....there are lessons learned here ...

I had to readjust the powder measure for this load, and I checked a couple of throws before I started. I didn't check it again halfway along because I was only loading 50 to test a new load.

The reloading step-up is in the basement, and it has been humid the last month or so. I bet a clump clogged the measure and it started throwing a very light charge. I haven't touched it since the reloading session, so I can test that theory tonight.

Rather than pitch the powder, I'll shake it up good and move it to the single-stage press where I can keep my eye on it, and use it up pretty fast.

A couple of lessons learned here. The most important one is probably that I need a "powder cop" die for loading tall cases in the progressive press unless I'm loading them full enough to easily see the powder (like W296.)

WESHOOT2 · August 4, 2010, 12:33 PM

All ten of my XL650 toolheads wear measures and powder-check stations.

sserdlihc · August 4, 2010, 02:05 PM

I always pour my unused powder back into the proper container. That way I am ready for my next reloading session.

geetarman · August 4, 2010, 02:17 PM

I tend to empty the measure when I am done. If I am loading a particular caliber and am finished for the day but not finished with the load, I will leave the powder alone and add more when I pick up the project again.

Geetarman

poline · August 4, 2010, 04:01 PM

This thing of shaking Titegroup before you measure it. I wonder, bullets loaded with titegroup and left to set for three months, could this have an adverse effect on the preformance of the round? Should these rounds be shaken before you shoot them, if they have set for a while? Seriously, what is the effect of rounds loaded then put in a holder vs rounds bounced around before being fired. Then too, I think, is this not the purpose of Titegroup to prevent there being a problem because the case is not more than half full with powder. ( Lets remember that the only stupid question is the one you don't ask. )

wingman · August 4, 2010, 05:08 PM

I do not let any powder sit in my hoppers found out early in my reloading
experience it is a mistake.

BigJimP · August 4, 2010, 06:30 PM

you make an interesting point Poline,

but if the finished rounds are stored properly / and the powder in the cases is not open to the air obviously - it shouldn't be a problem.

I'm not saying its a great idea / but I've left powder in my Dillon press for 3 or 4 months ....but my press is in my house - in a heated and dry space where temperature variations aren't more than 3 or 4 degrees all year long and humiditiy doesn't vary more than a few % points all year long. I've never had a problem - so it isn't inherent in the powder - its my position, its dependent on the environment.

At the same time / whenever I start the press ---I check the first 10 drops to make sure they are dead on my goal drop ( and any variation over 0.1grain is unacceptable ) in TiteGroup. Then even though I have a "powder check die" installed in my press ( Dillon 650 ) I still weigh about 1 in 25 drops / just in case ! If I lived in a humid area / I would dump that powder out of my press and back into the original container every time.

wingman · August 4, 2010, 07:32 PM

Quote:

its dependent on the environment.

Yes and no,is the hopper sealed and opaque,maybe ok, I've seen powder etch plastic hoppers and have a detrimental effect on powder while it may fire it will not be proper strength, the question becomes why take a change on contaminated powder.

Bruno2 · August 4, 2010, 07:49 PM

I think it says right in some of my reloading manuals to avoid shaking the powder containers. one reason is that it will cause it to meter different. Shaking will break the pieces into smaller pieces allowing more to fill the powder drum on your measure . This wont have any effect if you are weighing to check your charges before loading. However , I believe that I read this will cause it to burn at a different rate also. Just like burning one big piece of paper vs shredding the same piece of paper and then burning it. The shredded paper being smaller pieces will indeed burn faster than the one big piece of paper. I am not saying that it will blow your gun up , but , inconsistentcies is what cause groups to become erratic. Then again if your plinking and not shooting match with it then it doesnt really matter.

I also read in the ABC's of reloading that Nitrogen will indeed break itself after a while and powder will not be good anymore . It needs to be used as fertilizer for your yard after that. I also read a thread on how some powders will degrade brass after many yrs.

Longdayjake · August 4, 2010, 10:58 PM

Okay maybe you are taking my use of the word "shaking" a little too seriously. I am not saying that you should put the can in a paint shaker to get out the clumps. All I am saying is that you need to get the clumps out. Usually this can be acomplished by (not violent) tipping of the can up and down.

August 3, 2010, 09:19 PM	#1
zxcvbob Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2007 Location: S.E. Minnesota Posts: 4,720	Do Not Leave Titegroup in Your Powder Measure (I also posted this at THR) I leave one of my powder measures full of Red Dot powder all the time. I've never had any problems with it. Well, I left a few ounces of Titegroup in another measure for a couple of months, then used it to load some .357 Magnums. I knew the powder might discolor the plastic hopper on the measure, but I didn't think it would hurt the powder. I had three squibs out of less than a dozen rounds. One of them really blackened the outside of the brass, so I know that one had powder. I pulled all the rest of the bullets from that lot when I got home and every cartridge had powder. The rest of that powder will end up burned in a little pile in the backyard later tonight. If it wll burn. Now I gotta get the DEWC bullet out that's stuck in the barrel. It made it an inch past the forcing cone into the barrel proper, so it's gonna be tough pounding it out. I couldn't drive it out at the range using a brass rod, but I didn't have a real hammer with me. (might have to go to the gunsmith) __________________ "Everything they do is so dramatic and flamboyant. It just makes me want to set myself on fire!" —Lucille Bluth

August 3, 2010, 09:52 PM	#3
zxcvbob Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2007 Location: S.E. Minnesota Posts: 4,720	You're probably right. They all had powder when I pulled the bullets, but most didn't really look like enough powder. At least it was only one box of 50. I may give the Titegroup another chance; but only on the single stage press when I can inspect every single round before I seat the bullet. __________________ "Everything they do is so dramatic and flamboyant. It just makes me want to set myself on fire!" —Lucille Bluth

August 3, 2010, 10:03 PM	#4
jimbob86 Junior member Join Date: October 4, 2007 Location: All the way to NEBRASKA Posts: 8,722	IIRC, there was something about storing propellants in their original containers (as opposed to your powder measure) in ..... lemmee see here ..... every sigle one of my manuals? Last edited by jimbob86; August 4, 2010 at 11:59 PM.

August 4, 2010, 08:56 AM	#12
WESHOOT2 Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 1999 Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country) Posts: 14,324	crazy Tim I've had W231 in one measure for over fifteen years; I just keep adding more..... Yes, I gotta lotta measures....

August 4, 2010, 12:33 PM	#17
WESHOOT2 Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 1999 Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country) Posts: 14,324	all All ten of my XL650 toolheads wear measures and powder-check stations.

August 3, 2010, 09:23 PM	#2
Longdayjake Senior Member Join Date: August 11, 2009 Posts: 619	I find that tightgroup needs to be properly shaken before you put it into a measure. Where I live it tends to "clump" if you let is sit for too long. This can result in a light charge until the clumps get shaken loose. I doubt there is anything wrong with the powder but rather your loading practices. No offense, I had to learn that lesson myself.

August 3, 2010, 11:10 PM	#6
Doby45 Senior Member Join Date: January 19, 2009 Location: Powder Springs, GA Posts: 213	I concur.

August 3, 2010, 11:42 PM	#7
Mal H Staff Join Date: March 20, 1999 Location: Somewhere in the woods of Northern Virginia Posts: 16,971	I don't fully concur with that. While maintaining a powder's identity is certainly one of the main reasons for keeping powders in their proper container, it isn't the only reason. Some powders can oxidize and some powders are hygroscopic. Keeping a powder in a measure for a long period of time may expose it to the atmosphere and allow it to be affected by either or both of those undesirable effects. If the measure doesn't have an air tight cap (most don't) it is subject to a continuously changing environment.

August 3, 2010, 11:58 PM	#8
Clark Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 1999 Location: WA, the ever blue state Posts: 4,678	Power Pistol eats into the green hopper of an RCBS uniflow powder measure. Most of the 35 powders I use I can tell the difference by looking and smelling. But Power Pistol [formerly known as Bullseye 84] and Bullseye look the same. If there is a confusion between those two powders, I measure density. Power Pistol is measurably denser.

August 4, 2010, 04:39 AM	#9
troy_mclure Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2008 Location: gulf of mexico Posts: 2,716	i only have 1 measure, and live in high humidity zone, so i always empty my measure.

August 4, 2010, 09:33 AM	#13
jmorris Senior Member Join Date: November 22, 2006 Posts: 3,077	I reload inside and only empty a measure when I change the caliber that I am loading. Never had any problems with titegroup or any other powder for that matter.

August 4, 2010, 11:11 AM	#14
BigJimP Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2005 Posts: 13,195	I don't believe its an inherent problem in "TiteGroup" ...but it might be a problem with the humidity, etc in your reloading area / or something got bumped / or somebody inadvertently touched something on the press .../stuff does happen when your'e not looking ....curious grandkids, a cat jumped up on the reloading bench, all kinds of stuff ..... Powder drops are critical / and its important to always check them whenever you start the press on a new reloading day ( whether you leave powder in the original container or in the hopper on the press ). Glad you didn't damage a gun or hurt yourself ....there are lessons learned here ...

August 4, 2010, 11:17 AM	#15
dahermit Senior Member Join Date: October 28, 2006 Location: South Central Michigan...near Posts: 6,501	We old timers might remember the piece Skeeter Skelton published about "Skelton's Cow Killer Loads", back in the late '60's. Turns out he left some pistol powder (I think it was Unique, but cannot be sure), in a powder measure for a long time and the subsequent loads using it would not penetrate the skull of a broken-leg cow he was asked to dispatch. Whether or not you believe that powder will degenerate in a plastic hopper, the hoppers will become discolored in a short time while in contact with the powder suggesting that some chemical action is going on there, if not photo-reaction.

August 4, 2010, 02:05 PM	#18
sserdlihc Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 2008 Location: S.C. Posts: 1,454	I always pour my unused powder back into the proper container. That way I am ready for my next reloading session. Last edited by sserdlihc; August 4, 2010 at 02:33 PM. Reason: Seems I couldn't spell session.

August 4, 2010, 02:17 PM	#19
geetarman Senior Member Join Date: November 18, 2009 Location: Arizona Posts: 3,157	I tend to empty the measure when I am done. If I am loading a particular caliber and am finished for the day but not finished with the load, I will leave the powder alone and add more when I pick up the project again. Geetarman

August 4, 2010, 04:01 PM	#20
poline Senior Member Join Date: January 27, 2009 Location: Richmond,Va Posts: 292	This thing of shaking Titegroup before you measure it. I wonder, bullets loaded with titegroup and left to set for three months, could this have an adverse effect on the preformance of the round? Should these rounds be shaken before you shoot them, if they have set for a while? Seriously, what is the effect of rounds loaded then put in a holder vs rounds bounced around before being fired. Then too, I think, is this not the purpose of Titegroup to prevent there being a problem because the case is not more than half full with powder. ( Lets remember that the only stupid question is the one you don't ask. )

August 4, 2010, 05:08 PM	#21
wingman Senior Member Join Date: August 20, 2002 Posts: 2,108	I do not let any powder sit in my hoppers found out early in my reloading experience it is a mistake.

August 4, 2010, 06:30 PM	#22
BigJimP Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2005 Posts: 13,195	you make an interesting point Poline, but if the finished rounds are stored properly / and the powder in the cases is not open to the air obviously - it shouldn't be a problem. I'm not saying its a great idea / but I've left powder in my Dillon press for 3 or 4 months ....but my press is in my house - in a heated and dry space where temperature variations aren't more than 3 or 4 degrees all year long and humiditiy doesn't vary more than a few % points all year long. I've never had a problem - so it isn't inherent in the powder - its my position, its dependent on the environment. At the same time / whenever I start the press ---I check the first 10 drops to make sure they are dead on my goal drop ( and any variation over 0.1grain is unacceptable ) in TiteGroup. Then even though I have a "powder check die" installed in my press ( Dillon 650 ) I still weigh about 1 in 25 drops / just in case ! If I lived in a humid area / I would dump that powder out of my press and back into the original container every time.

August 4, 2010, 07:49 PM	#24
Bruno2 Senior Member Join Date: August 7, 2009 Location: Not saying b/c I dont want any of you crazy people to rob or kill me. Alright it's Tulsa , Oklahoma Posts: 224	I think it says right in some of my reloading manuals to avoid shaking the powder containers. one reason is that it will cause it to meter different. Shaking will break the pieces into smaller pieces allowing more to fill the powder drum on your measure . This wont have any effect if you are weighing to check your charges before loading. However , I believe that I read this will cause it to burn at a different rate also. Just like burning one big piece of paper vs shredding the same piece of paper and then burning it. The shredded paper being smaller pieces will indeed burn faster than the one big piece of paper. I am not saying that it will blow your gun up , but , inconsistentcies is what cause groups to become erratic. Then again if your plinking and not shooting match with it then it doesnt really matter. I also read in the ABC's of reloading that Nitrogen will indeed break itself after a while and powder will not be good anymore . It needs to be used as fertilizer for your yard after that. I also read a thread on how some powders will degrade brass after many yrs.

August 4, 2010, 10:58 PM	#25
Longdayjake Senior Member Join Date: August 11, 2009 Posts: 619	Okay maybe you are taking my use of the word "shaking" a little too seriously. I am not saying that you should put the can in a paint shaker to get out the clumps. All I am saying is that you need to get the clumps out. Usually this can be acomplished by (not violent) tipping of the can up and down.