Revolvers that shoot shotgun shells

[groverdill]

Being somewhat new to the world of guns, I see there are some revolvers (like the Taurus Judge) that are capable of shooting shotgun shells. What would you use this for? I'd imagine the recoil would be significant. Is it even practical?

Mike

[Venom1956]

Dear god. You don't know what you've done!


No its not very powerful. they are very small shotgun shells. most solid rounds produce more damage and take up alot less space.

[Crankgrinder]

A snake gun for camping would be the only practical use for one I can think of. I personally consider them a mere novelty more than anything but that's me.

[tallball]

The guys in the videos look like they are having fun blowing up pumpkins and stuff. It looked like so much fun that I bought one for myself to play with. It shoots 45 long colt pretty well, though it's a little heavy and funny shaped compared to a "normal" 45 revolver. I bought the kind that shoots 3" magnum shells, and with 00 buckshot I would not feel unarmed. The smaller shot I wouldn't personally use for anything but snakes or other critters.

[Wishoot]

I donno....Maybe for very close quarter confrontations? Shooting out of your car window?

[kutz]

Great for a fishing tackle box in snake country, 410 = snake burger, with pink mist sauce.

[TailGator]

Most people regard them as novelty guns. Nothing wrong with owning one as long as you don't think of it as an end-all cure-all. They really don't too too many things very well, though.

[dahermit]

I can envision that they could be some utility in a bush pilot's survival kit as a forage tool, as in shooting Ptarmigan. It would fit into a smaller pack, more sure of knocking over rabbits/hares than a solid projectile gun also. Also, as a hunting camp tool for the same reason. Its utility in comparison to other weapons seems to be limited however.

[TimSr]

The rifled barrel makes them pattern poorly, but at close quarters, like 10' or so, they still hold pretty tight. For an indoor, close quarters defense, and with limited marksmanship, in the dark, I sure wouldn't feel defenseless with one. I've explored the limitations of .44 shot loads, which held about 1/4 oz. so my guess would be that a face full of 1/2 oz. of #8 shot from a .410 shell and a pistol barrel at 10 or 12 feet would incapacitate about anybody.

Years ago Thompson made some kind of add on choke for their 45LC contender barrel, and people managed to shoot skeet with .410 shells in it. Though it was technically legal, it was discontinued because of ATF pressure, and threats to recognize it as a short barreled shotgun.

[44 AMP]

The thing with the Judge (and others like it) is that it is, as the saying goes, neither fish, nor fowl, nor good red meat!....

The advantage to these guns is that they shoot a commonly available shotgun shell (.410). The problem with these guns is that they shoot a commonly available shotgun shell (.410).

Federal law requires handguns to have rifled barrels. You can shoot regular ammo, or shotshells, it doesn't matter, but the pistol HAS to be rifled. Otherwise it is a "sawed off shotgun" and restricted under the same law as machineguns and silencers.

Another complication is the federal regulation that restricts bore size to essentially .50 caliber and under for rifled arms. Anything larger is considered a "destructive device" and restricted. (there is an exemption for the big bore elephant guns). SO, if it's going to be a handgun, it has to be rifled, and if rifled, it has to be .50 or less, so that pretty much restricts things to the .410.

Now, a .410 pistol has its uses, but its performance suffers compared to a .410 smooth bore. And tis not the velocity loss in a short (pistol) barrel that causes the trouble. IT is the rifling. The rifling spins the shot charge, the way it spins a bullet, which means that the shot charge turns into a "donut" with a hole in the middle (where there is no shot). And, this is noticeable at very close range, too. Most pronounced with bird/snake shot, but it happens with buckshot, too, its just not as easily noticed in the .410 due to the small number of buckshot pellets.

The T/C Contender used a "choke" tube (I call it "the straightener"), a tube screwed onto (or into) the muzzle with straight "rifling", which was intended to counter act the spin from the barrel rifling. It sort of worked, but you could not fire bullet (slugs) though it.

The .45Colt/.410 revolvers don't have anything like this (that I know of, anyway), so they are not the best performers with bird shot that they could be.

.410 slugs make a pretty peppy pistol round, being a 1/4oz slug doing a claimed 1800 fps (3in shell) from a regular shotgun barrel. If we assume reasonable velocity loss due to the handgun length barrel then you have a roughly 110gr slug doing 12-1300fps (estimate, I don't have chrono data) which puts it roughly in the .357 mag range. The 2.5" .410 shell has a 1/5 oz slug (even ligher).

But even though .410 slugs should be turning in some impressive speed for handgun rounds, the slugs are not built the same as JHP bullets, and therefore, their performance as self defense rounds is not going to be the same as a .357 mag, or so I would expect. What this boils down to, as a practical matter is that if you are only going to be getting about .357 performance, if that (from slugs), why carry a gun the size of the Judge???

The .45 Colt is a venerable round with a proven 140 year track record, the only drawback it has in a .45/.410 is the long bullet jump to the rifling. In some guns it doesn't seem to matter much, but in others the long jump to the rifling has a detrimental effect on the accuracy. Unfortunately, you can't know for sure, until you shoot that particular gun. I've read reports of people saying how their Judge was accurate with .45 Colt ammo. I won't dispute them, I'm sure their gun does what they claim. But others might not.

I've got a .45.410 Contender that was reasonably accurate with .45 Colt ammo, but the same ammo in my .45 Colt (only) barrel is more accurate than in the .45/.410 barrel.

.410 buckshot? yeah, some good there, traditionally used against varmints and small predators at short range. Not a deer load, really.

The irksome thing about the Judge, and similar guns, for many of us is the marketing. These guns are being promoted as good self defense guns, relying mainly on two of the big shotgun myths, and most people's lack of understanding of how things really work.

One myth is the tremendous "power" of the shotgun. Blows guys through windows and even almost stops the Terminator. In the movies. The 12ga does have power, but it gets it through mass. The .410 doesn't even come close. But people hear "its a shotgun shell" and think of what the 12ga does.

The other myth is "with a shotgun you don't need to aim", which isn't (and never was) even remotely true. While you may not aim a shotgun like a rifle, if you don't aim, you simply don't hit. And at close range (defensive use) the shotgun pattern hasn't had time to open up much, often not being any larger than your fist, if that, at across the room ranges.

Many people are buying them with greatly inflated expectations.

As a survival gun, they also fall short. While the .410 will do a fair job getting small game to eat, for the size & weight of a Judge and a single box of ammo (25rnds) you can pack a .22LR and a couple HUNDRED rounds of ammo, with just as much effect (when properly aimed) and about double the usable range of the .410.

They are a novelty gun, and as long as you get one with your eyes open, great fun. But if you get one thinking you are getting the best thing for (insert use here), your eyes are not open.

[Tom Matiska]

I'm considering one for home defense. It is not possible to take a shot in excess of 27 feet within the confines of my house. Muzzle energy of various 2.5 to 3" loads is in the 357 to 44 mag range.... more than adequate. Buck shot or slugs would be more neighborly than jacketed loads through the drywall. 12ga tactical loads tend to dominate these discussions, but are gross overkill for the ranges I'm considering. Adequate? yes... maybe even perfect.

[Venom1956]

I'm considering one for home defense. It is not possible to take a shot in excess of 27 feet within the confines of my house. Muzzle energy of various 2.5 to 3" loads is in the 357 to 44 mag range.... more than adequate. Buck shot or slugs would be more neighborly than jacketed loads through the drywall. 12ga tactical loads tend to dominate these discussions, but are gross overkill for the ranges I'm considering. Adequate? yes... maybe even perfect.

I'll never understand why people want a less effective round for SD... Its used on rabbits, squirrels and birds. Not exactly what i'd bring to a gun fight unless i had too.

Also check your ballistic measurements. I doubt that .44 mag energy levels are from a judge most likely a 28 inch shotgun barrel.

Look @ hickock45s video where he shoots random things with it. it can't penetrate ductwork close up.. that isnt exactly a fightstopper or inspires confidence.

With only five shots. Im pretty sure its larger then a glock 19 in size and weight or atleast comparable. a G19 will be thousands of times more effective and proven then any 'wunder shotgun pistol'

[Tom Matiska]

Nor do I understand the need for gross overkill where over penetration is a liability. I would expect buck shot or slugs at point blank range to be more than adequate.

[T. O'Heir]

Shot shells out of rifled barrels create patterns with big holes in 'em. At 27 feet it might be a miss altogether. If you use a slug, you might as well use a regular bullet.

[Derbel McDillet]

My wife has the 18" bbl Circuit Judge revolver shotgun for home defense. It's loaded with Federal 2 1/2" 4 pellet 000 buck (PD412JDG 000) and it patterns very well.

She tried the Federal 3" 5 pellet 000 load (PD413JDG 000) but prefers the 4 pellet load instead.

She also liked shooting .45 Colt Speer Gold Dot from it but the ammo is much more expensive than the Federal buckshot load.

[Venom1956]

Nor do I understand the need for gross overkill where over penetration is a liability.

If you are fighting for your life there is hardly such thing as overkill. The faster the conflict is ended the less rounds are fired and statistically lessens the chance of injuring someone else.

Also your solution is to use a gun that fires pellets in a cone? You've just changed it from one aimed round to several unstable rounds that spread outward from the point of aim?

Bullets go through things. Thats how they work. You should know the where you can and cant shoot in your home to a reasonable degree sure there are variables and other family members so also know how to react in this situation.
If you are worried about over penetration get a bat.
hopefully he doesnt have a suit of this!

Else you're gonna be in trouble!

a .410 'slug weighs a massive... 92grns. wow. coming out of a 3" judge @ 1125 fps... those are some hot .380 ball! all five of them!

or you could have a semi auto the same size with 300% the ammunition and JHP hydrashoks 147 grn going @ roughly 950 or Golddots 124 @ 1203fps with bullets designed to be used against human assailants.

[Model12Win]

With the Federal personal defense 3" magnum buckshots with 5 or so 000 buckshots in them, stopping power is devastating and they pattern well at 10 yards or less. With each shot, that's like getting hit in the chest 5 times with James Bond's Walther PPK... yeah it's pretty darn effective IMHO.

Do not underestimate the power of a .410 handgun. With birdshot yes they are not good for defense, but there are specialty shotshells tailor made for the Judge that pack a massive punch and have the reliability of a revolver, all with increased hit probability and decreased penetration vs. other rounds.

[Real Gun]

I have a Judge with the 2 1/2 cylinder and I'm keeping it. Paired with a 410 coach gun with a sling, they make an interesting pair. The ammo sash has a variety of ammo on it from snake shot to slugs to 45 Colt defensive rounds.

For someone just starting out there are much more important guns to acquire. I must say though that when the "experts" start disrespecting the capabilities of the shotshell handgun, I am reminded of how much respect the 22 gets as a defensive round. Go figure.

[Cheapshooter]

I have a Judge Public Defender Poly. It is the short barrel version on a polymer frame. Making it a bit smaller, and lighter than the original.
It is accurate at the accepted standard for mouse every concealed carry qualification of 7 yards. Actually even further. Both with Federal Premium Handgun 410 000 Buckshot, and Winchester PDX1 225 grain 45 Colt ammunition. I emphasize the handgun for the Federal 410 ammo because it has been specially developed for the 410/45 revolvers. It has shown very impressive ballistic gel penetration in tests.
Using regular 2 1/2" 410 shot shells with #8 shot it produces a pattern sure to ruin the day of any servant encountered in the woods, and berry patches.
My Poly has 3 uses.
1. Truck gun. Loaded with the Federal 000 Buck for the first two up, backed by 3 45 Colt rounds it tucks away easily between the driver's seat, and console. Easy to access if needed to defend against an up close car jacking assailant.
2. Snake gun while in the woodworking Morel Mushrooms, or blackberries. Being the lightest, and most compact Judge it carries relatively easy.
3. Range, and junk pile toy. Loads of fun to just blow stuff up with!

Just do a search of this forum for Judge, or 410 handgun. Lots of critics, mostly who have never owned one. But plenty of information, including target photos by people who actually do have one.

[Real Gun]

duplicate

[Venom1956]

With the Federal personal defense 3" magnum buckshots with 5 or so 000 buckshots in them, stopping power is devastating and they pattern well at 10 yards or less. With each shot, that's like getting hit in the chest 5 times with James Bond's Walther PPK... yeah it's pretty darn effective IMHO.

ok so now its a 3" judge?
So might aswell bump the 9mm up to +P or +P+.

So that fires 5 massive 50 to 60 grn rounds of lead? Because .32acp is renown as being such an effective modern caliber. And because james bond makes it so worth it. 5 lead balls vs a modern SD hollow point... what was i thinking...
Arguing that it can shoot .45 Colt is also void because if u want to do that you are better off getting a revolver that shots .45 colt with a longer barrel and the same overall length.

Stopping power is devastating huh? So me numbers facts. I can write stuff that makes it sound cool too. But opinions mean nothing.

Not being an owner means nothing as well you don't need to own something to have knowledge of it. Just because you own a car doesn't mean you can fix it. I dont own one because I have no reason to own it. If I wanted one I would get one. But I don't.

I never said it shouldn't exist or you shouldn't own one or use one. I simply said that there are guns that can out perform it on every level.

[AKexpat]

I watched a hickok45 video wherein he shoots the Judge with .45 Colt cartridges

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRlry5KH6I0

at a gong at 18 yards with a 3" barrel. I shoots very high but, in his estimation, "fairly accurately" insofar as grouping.

There is a very long leade insofar as the distance between the bullet and the forcing cone of the barrel.

In a previous thread I was told that reaming through a Ruger SP101 cylinder with a .357 Max reamer would ruin the gun's accuracy, and possibly be dangerous, using .38 Spl +P cartridges

http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...22#post5869522

particularly posts #'s 3, 10, & 18.

Enlighten me as to the difference..

[Model12Win]

So me numbers facts.

Um... what?

Also, 000 buckshot is .360 in caliber and weighs 70 grains... and there are 5 of them per shell and penetration is well above 12 inches, yeah that's pretty much going to leave a mark. The fact that the handgun fires five individual pellets, each with it's own chance to hit a vital organ, makes the likelyhood of a one shot stop far better than with a handgun that fires only one projectile per trigger pull. The same reason why a full size shotgun has such a reputation as a fight stopper with buckshot. You have an instant 500% greater chance of hitting the vitals than say a .38 special that has only one chance.

So yes, stopping power indeed.

[44 AMP]

You have an instant 500% greater chance of hitting the vitals than say a .38 special that has only one chance.

I would say that the relatively lightweight round ball is the least likely bullet to stay on course through tissue, and not well noted for penetrating as deeply as heavier more pointed or cylindrical bullets.

And while it may be 5 balls, its still only one SHOT, and I don't think the slight spread of the shot inside a room can be counted on to make up for a bad SHOT.

No one is saying they won't work for self defense. What we're saying is that to get one FOR THAT is foolish. There are better choices than a 5 shot revolver firing a 3" long shell for that.

[AKexpat]

Like James Butler Hickok's 1851 Navy .36 cal black powder revolvers.