|
Forum Rules | Firearms Safety | Firearms Photos | Links | Library | Lost Password | Email Changes |
Register | FAQ | Calendar | Today's Posts | Search |
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
August 20, 2009, 08:40 PM | #26 |
Senior Member
Join Date: June 15, 2006
Posts: 101
|
A while back when some dirtbag in Polk County, Florida who got pulled over in a routine traffic stop ended up executing the deputy who stopped him. The deputy was shot eight times, including once behind his right ear at close range. Another deputy was wounded and a police dog killed. A state wide manhunt ensued. The low-life was found hiding in a wooded area with his gun. SWAT team officers opened fire and hit the guy 68 times. Naturally, the media went nuts and asked why they shot him 68 times. Polk County Sheriff Grady Judd, told the Orlando Sentinel, “Because that’s all the ammunition we had.” Talk about an all-time classic answer. Gotta admire the man for being honest.
God bless all LEO's that have to take a life in the line of duty. Sometimes the worst part of it is not the actual shooting but the scrutiny you recieve afterward from everybody. Monday morning QB's will say "couldn't they have used non lethals or shot him in the leg or something?" I've heard it all! Those poor guys will get it from all sides; their own IA, the public, the media, yes even some of their own colleagues will even chip in. They'll be called racists, stormtroopers, etc... by those in the Ivory tower's that have the luxury to sit back, reflect, and opine on their actions. It's been my experience that those who bash Cops do so because they've been on the wrong side of the law at some time or another! |
August 21, 2009, 09:31 AM | #27 | |
Member
Join Date: December 4, 2004
Posts: 96
|
Quote:
The biggest problem though is that too many of us are unwilling to address quality of life issues in our communities that when left to fester will ultimately lead to tragic situations such as this one. We expect the police to somehow magically be able to peacefully quell a situation that we have allowed through neglect to reach it's plateau. Another problem is that we say we support the police and give lip service, that is until we're stopped and ticketed by one for doing 60 mph in a 25 mph zone with children playing nearby or for driving erratically while talking on the cell phone. We make comments such as: "why are you harrassing me, you should be out there chasing drug dealers" when our irresponsible and hypocritical actions are just as dangerous to innocent life as the drug dealer's. Last edited by jbrown50; August 21, 2009 at 09:39 AM. |
|
August 21, 2009, 12:35 PM | #28 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 27, 2005
Location: Richmond VA - home of a street full of second-place trophies.
Posts: 151
|
In my mind it's not the number of rounds fired, or rounds hitting, that matters. It's what the person being shot at does once the shooting begins.
As far as I'm concerned, it is "shoot until the threat is stopped" or all the shooting you do will just **** off the person you are shooting. If it means that you shoot the person to the ground to ensure the threat is stopped, then so be it. At least you will be alive to deal with any legal repercussions that may arise. In the case at hand my mind says the cops were also thinking "shoot him to the ground" as the way to assure the threat was stopped. Note that none of what I post has to do with whether or not the shooting was justified, necessary, apopropriate or excessive. It is merely one person's thoughts on when you decide to stop shooting. stay safe. skidmark |
August 21, 2009, 12:39 PM | #29 |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 3, 2008
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
Posts: 479
|
Just goes to show they're not death-rays. Also, if you take a look at the autopsy report, only 2 shots were anywhere near COM....
Now repreat after me... Placement is king, Placement is king, Placement is king....
__________________
-- Sparks AKA J.M. Johnston |
August 21, 2009, 09:02 PM | #30 |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 31, 2000
Location: Texican!
Posts: 4,453
|
First off, I presume all six cops fired.
59 rounds 43 hits. That's just about 10 shots per cop. Now in real life, when someone raises a gun toward you, you don't say, "mine", like vollyball. Each of the cops reacted. Each fired pretty much at the same time. All fired till the BG dropped. Yep, 59 shots, no suprise. 43 hits, hey, that's good shoot'en. Does anyone here really think in combat one GI says, "my shot', and opens up on the machinegun nest? No, right? It was not excessive force for EACH of the cops. They did what they did cause they knew they had to stop the guy with the rifle. Ten shots can be shot in just a second or two, before the BG even hits the round, by someone who can shoot. And from that hit rate, I think those cops could shoot. Simple as that. And as Randy Harris said, "People who point guns at the police tend to get shot. People who point guns at a lot of police tend to get shot a lot."
__________________
“To you who call yourselves ‘men of peace,’ I say, you are not safe without men of action by your side” Thucydides |
August 22, 2009, 12:27 AM | #31 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 21, 2009
Location: Georgia
Posts: 1,424
|
Quote:
Poor bullet placement for most of the shots that hit.
__________________
NRA Life Member - Orange Gunsite Member - NRA Certified Pistol Instructor "When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society,
they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it." Frederic Bastiat Last edited by Mello2u; August 22, 2009 at 12:42 AM. |
|
August 22, 2009, 05:37 AM | #32 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 27, 2007
Location: DFW Metroplex (well, McKinney)
Posts: 858
|
43 hits of 45 Auto would have turned a block of ballistic gelatin into mush. But people aren't made out of Jello. Stopping power=psychology. If he's determined to continue functioning, just poking holes is not a good way to stop him.
__________________
I believe in a world which consists of America, her friends, and her dead enemies. Last edited by LightningJoe; August 23, 2009 at 04:33 AM. |
August 22, 2009, 12:30 PM | #33 |
Senior Member
Join Date: April 30, 2008
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,952
|
I can imagine that the cops were tense and the adrenaline levels were high. But 43 .45acp hits? Seems like a blatant case of overkill.
|
August 22, 2009, 02:12 PM | #34 |
Member
Join Date: December 2, 2008
Location: Valley of the SUN, AZ
Posts: 34
|
Howdy-
Would like to say right off the top that I HAVE worn the uniform. I CANNOT say I am at all surprised about the statement that cops bring deadly force with them and are PREDISPOSED to use it- Many shall do so as their First Choice! Given a chance, many want to. I have seen this mentality first hand ; it is ugly. " 43 wounds with some of them in his chest would indicate all shots were not while he was lying down." How so? Is it impossible to shoot a man in the chest if he is on the ground with six cops emptying their guns into him? It sure SOUNDS excessive- sounds like the "majic number" of rounds is "how many do you have?" __________________ - it is ugly. stinks to high heaven. |
August 22, 2009, 09:10 PM | #35 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Forestburg, Montague Cnty, TX
Posts: 12,717
|
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
"If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher." -- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011 My Hunting Videos https://www.youtube.com/user/HornHillRange |
||
August 22, 2009, 09:44 PM | #36 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 20, 2004
Posts: 3,150
|
Quote:
Agreed that marksmanship wasn't exactly stellar, though the man who wanted to be shot suffered 43 hits--- which represents reasonably good marksmanship based on police shootings. |
|
August 22, 2009, 09:46 PM | #37 |
Senior Member
Join Date: August 16, 2007
Location: Central Illinois
Posts: 589
|
Drunk and armed??? Sounds like "terminal stupidity" to me. Never get blitzed and start waving guns around. Social events like that end up with somebody landing on the coroner's table full of bullet holes. It doesn't matter what color, religion or anything that you are. It's nature's way of thinning out the gene pool.
|
August 22, 2009, 10:10 PM | #38 |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 22, 2007
Location: Jackson,Mississippi
Posts: 838
|
Overkill???
I saw this term used.
How dead was this guy? Was he completely dead or just a little dead? I think cops should only shoot until the suspects are just barely dead. Not overly dead but dead. I also think they should wait until the suspecttry to shoot them like Matt Dillon did on Gunsmoke Seems like six cops made the same decision...This guy needs to be shot and shot until he drops. If the perp didn't want to be shot at 59 times he should have dropped his weapon or hit the ground faster. Man lying on ground with rifle or sniper in prone postion. distraught drunk young man or guy who shot veteran cop who hesitated to fire weapon. It is all about spin and timing. Last edited by bcarver; August 22, 2009 at 10:41 PM. |
August 23, 2009, 02:30 AM | #39 |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 13, 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 12,453
|
59 rounds? Geezuz! A cop, up here, fired 19 rounds, last week, and missed with every one. Justifiable discharge, while running after the criminal twit, according to the news reports. Bullets were sent all over a residential neighbourhood. Hit houses, garages, etc.
Our cops are a good bunch of people, but they can't shoot. "...or rounds hitting, that matters..." Except that most people think that cops are trained to use the kit well. They're not. If you're issued a firearm to defend the populace, you should be competent with the equipment. Most are not. The days of cops being shooters before they get hired are long gone. "...Where the heck were the AR's?..." Line cops don't get a rifle.
__________________
Spelling and grammar count! |
August 23, 2009, 06:10 AM | #40 |
Member
Join Date: May 27, 2009
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 42
|
1. Correct me if I'm wrong but don't most shootings happen when you mix drugs/alcohol or mental illness with guns? 2-4 hours of annual training is a joke.
2. Most shootings ARE very fluid and things happen very fast. They should have been trained to deal with it. 3. Those cops could have easily killed a bystander with that much shooting. |
August 23, 2009, 07:27 AM | #41 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 30, 2007
Posts: 1,041
|
Quote:
|
|
August 23, 2009, 09:33 AM | #42 |
Member
Join Date: June 30, 2009
Location: southern California
Posts: 48
|
I thought the cop rule went something like this: "When one of us (cops) starts shooting, all the cops empty their guns into the threat." Also, "A cop who doesn't observe this rule is an unreliable partner."
That's just what I've heard. I neglected to add that I am not a law enforcement officer. Last edited by Rich Keagy; August 23, 2009 at 08:00 PM. |
August 23, 2009, 09:50 AM | #43 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 29, 2006
Location: Northern Illinois
Posts: 515
|
If someone is trying to kill me and I have a gun in hand, I probably will keep shooting until I perceive the guy is no longer a threat. I cannot fault the officers involved for the number of shots fired.
Whether it was a justified shooting gets decided by colleagues of those who did the shooting. In fact, they announced their decision on that point pdq. Quote:
The reality is that if it happened the way the police tell the story, is the guy was not rational and trying to reason with someone who is not rational is not likely to be successful. At some point the cops may have had little choice in the matter. One might argue about their tactics, or the way they choose to handle the situation, but once it started to go down, its tough to see it going any other way than how it did.
__________________
bob Disclaimers: I am not a lawyer, cop, soldier, gunsmith, politician, plumber, electrician, or a professional practitioner of many of the other things I comment on in this forum. Last edited by ilbob; August 23, 2009 at 09:57 AM. |
|
August 23, 2009, 10:14 AM | #44 |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 10, 2008
Posts: 157
|
"3. Those cops could have easily killed a bystander with that much shooting. "
I'm sorry but bystanders who are watching six cops face of with an armed crazy person? Kind of like watching a train wreck from on the train isn't it? I am not saying they deserve to be shot but if people start pulling out guns and im not one of them...i will be vacating the premises. |
August 23, 2009, 12:07 PM | #45 |
Junior member
Join Date: May 23, 2009
Posts: 143
|
Here's a few thoughts for those without any LE background. When you get a call on something like this everybody who is remotely close to the scene runs hot to get there. Adrenalin pumping like mad. Generally speaking the first to respond will be the primary officer. Of course a supervisor will be enroute too, sometimes, but not always, he will take the role of PO when he arrives. Depending on the call.
6 regular patrol officers do not train together like a SWAT team will. I can only imagine the amount of confusion and chaos that might have gone on before the shooting began. One of the biggest clusterf#### I've ever seen happened at a multi agency felony stop. Poor sucker, armed robbery suspect, at gunpoint by 4-5 officers and each of them telling him to do something different. "Hands in the air," Hands behind your head." "On the ground." 'Don't move." "Turn around slowly." "Get on your knees." "Stand up, sit down, fight fight fight" Each officer at the OP had a different perspective, different experience, different gun handling ability, and different mindset in how they intended to deal with such a situation. I seriously doubt that any one of them could tell you who fired the first shot. But I will bet that since all of them fired in unison, they all saw the same thing. One might have reacted a hair faster than the others. The notion that every officer has to empty his gun is not completely farfetched but actually not completely true in my experience. I backed up a situation once that ended in an OIS. The guy and his partner emptied their guns into a car and wounded the BG. I didn't have a clear shot at the BG so I didn't shoot. It kind of reminded me of recon by fire but I didn't think I needed to add to the suppressive fire. This particular BG never fired a shot. He did pull a gun from under the seat however. Nobody said a thing about it to me. The partner caught hell from the rest about 15 rounds fired and no hits, though. |
|
|