Post Office Parking Lot?

Caboclo · April 30, 2010, 09:36 AM

If I go to the Post Office, can I legally leave my gun in my car in the parking lot? If so, does it have to be in a locked container inside the car, or just have the car itself locked?

roge · April 30, 2010, 11:00 AM

The most responsible way to leave gun in car when it's a must, is to secure the gun in a small, thru floor mounted safe. I bought one thru Cabela's catalog, bolted it thru car floor in the space between driver and passanger. I would'nt leave the gun just in a locked car.

Gary Slider · April 30, 2010, 11:07 AM

It is against Federal Law to have a firearm on Postal Property. The Post Office does not fall under Federal buildings. They have their own laws in the Federal Code.

Title 39 - Postal Service
Chapter I - United States Postal Service
Subchapter D - Organization and Administration
Part 232 - Conduct on Postal Property
232.1 - Conduct on Postal Property.
Paragraph L
(l) Weapons and explosives. No person while on postal property may carry firearms, other
dangerous or deadly weapons, or explosives, either openly or concealed, or store the same on
postal property, except for official purposes.

kodiakbeer · April 30, 2010, 12:44 PM

It would seem to me that your car is exempt - like your home. I mean, a warrant is needed to search a vehicle (lacking probable cause, etc) just like a home, so I wouldn't be too concerned about it. In fact, a vehicle actually is some peoples home - is an RVer supposed to drop off his guns at the police station before mailing a letter? I see pick-up trucks in the Post Office parking lot with rifles and shotguns on racks in the window!

I wouldn't be concerned about it.

langenc · April 30, 2010, 01:02 PM

Not all posters are from/live in Alaska!!

kodiakbeer · April 30, 2010, 01:13 PM

Are federal laws different outside Alaska? I've lived here quite a few years, but I saw plenty of pick ups with rifle racks down below when I lived there. Maybe things have changed, but my car is still my property and I'd just slip my gun out of sight before entering the post office, the court house, whatever.

Maybe that makes me a criminal?

TJH3781 · April 30, 2010, 02:34 PM

While your vehicle is your property, once it is on Gov property it is a whole different issue. The probable cause threshold maybe much lower than you think as some statures have an implied consent feature once you voluntarily enter Gov property.

NavyLT · April 30, 2010, 02:36 PM

The Federal regulation is pretty dang self-explanatory:

(l) Weapons and explosives. No person while on postal property may carry firearms, other dangerous or deadly weapons, or explosives, either openly or concealed, or store the same on postal property, except for official purposes.

Store the same (meaning the firearms) on postal property means in the car in the parking lot. The firearm is still being stored on postal property, it doesn't matter if your car is wrapped around it. The question is not whether you will get caught or not. The question was whether it is illegal or not.

mas12990 · April 30, 2010, 03:53 PM

i have to agree with kodiack, most times the weapon stays with me .... unless i know there are metal detectors.

kodiakbeer · April 30, 2010, 04:43 PM

Quote:

i have to agree with kodiack, most times the weapon stays with me .... unless i know there are metal detectors.

I don't carry in places that prohibit guns. None of the shops or restaurants here prohibit guns, but if they did I'd honor that. I don't often carry in my little town anyway, but when I do and have to go to the PO or somewhere, I just leave my gun in the car. If that's a crime, then half the town are criminals judging by all the full gun racks sitting in the post office parking lot.

Goatwhiskers · April 30, 2010, 04:45 PM

There was an employee at the main Baton Rouge post office who was a private investigator on the side. All properly licensed and trained. Came to work one day and had forgotten to take his weapon out. That was the day when they were checking every car that entered the employee lot. He was terminated immediately. We used to have a nut case at the little country post office where I worked that would come in every day to pick up his mail with a .38 stuck in his belt until I explained a few things to him. I held a commission for 16 years never brought a weapon to work.

Caboclo · April 30, 2010, 06:10 PM

Thanks for all the replies. I just wasn't sure if the applicable law had a parking lot exception spelled out.

RETG · April 30, 2010, 06:50 PM

Just remember it has to be postal property. If a post office is in a strip mall, the parking lot and surrounding walk areas are not postal property. Postal property starts when you enter the door.

NavyLT · April 30, 2010, 07:35 PM

AND if the post office is a little branch counter in a convenience store, the postal property doesn't even start until behind the counter. In that case, you can do business at the postal counter fully armed

.

ncpatriot · May 1, 2010, 11:37 PM

Post office near us was robbed a few months ago. Who knows, if not gun free, someone may have had a weapon and been able to help.

teeroux · May 2, 2010, 12:45 AM

Quote:

AND if the post office is a little branch counter in a convenience store, the postal property doesn't even start until behind the counter. In that case, you can do business at the postal counter fully armed

Absoulutly I know of a grocery/deli/restaurant/hardware/lumber/auto/gas station/gun/fishin/post office store.

NavyLT · May 2, 2010, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by teeroux

Absoulutly I know of a grocery/deli/restaurant/hardware/lumber/auto/gas station/gun/fishin/post office store

In Wyoming we call those places towns!

And if they have a church on one side and bar on the other, they get promoted to cities!

kraigwy · May 2, 2010, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by teeroux
Absoulutly I know of a grocery/deli/restaurant/hardware/lumber/auto/gas station/gun/fishin/post office store

In Wyoming we call those places towns!

And if they have a church on one side and bar on the other, they get promoted to cities!

Now thats funny,....................true but funny.

ronto · May 2, 2010, 11:25 AM

This subject has been explored many times on this and other forums. To date, no one can cite a case where a CHL holder was arrested, prosecuted, found guilty, and punished for having a legal weapon in a private vehicle parked in a post office parking lot while on official business such as mailing a damn letter.
If any one can cite such a case, please do so. In the meantime, don't spit on the sidewalk since there is more case law available regarding that "crime".

n7qvu · May 2, 2010, 11:39 AM

I must be confused also.

The GCA says that a FFL can ship a firearm via USPS. It happens often and there is a USPS form to attest to that the FFL is shipping to an authorized person. In my town, I have to visit the PO to mail anything, not from home pickup,

So how is it illegal to have a gun on their property??

NavyLT · May 2, 2010, 11:49 AM

Mailing a firearm falls under the "except for official purposes".

Official purposes refers to the presence of the firearm on postal property, not the presence of the person themselves.

For instance, a cop wears his duty firearm "for official purposes". A military person wears a firearm issued to them by the government "for official purposes" (although they probably wouldn't be at the post office!) A person mailing a gun has the gun itself there for the "official purpose" of mailing it.

Now, while Joe Citizen may be at the Post Office conducting postal business, the gun that he is wearing is for personal protection and is NOT for "official purposes" and, thus, illegal to possess, carry, or store on postal property.

RETG · May 2, 2010, 08:08 PM

[quote']This subject has been explored many times on this and other forums. To date, no one can cite a case where a CHL holder was arrested, prosecuted, found guilty, and punished for having a legal weapon in a private vehicle parked in a post office parking lot while on official business such as mailing a damn letter.
If any one can cite such a case, please do so. In the meantime, don't spit on the sidewalk since there is more case law available regarding that "crime". [/quote]

I don't believe anyone on this thread has stated people have been arrested. I only see people quoting the law as it is written. Just because you have not seen it on the internet, does not mean this has never happened.

apr1775 · May 5, 2010, 04:37 PM

Here we go again...

Quote:

Title 39 - Postal Service
Chapter I - United States Postal Service
Subchapter D - Organization and Administration
Part 232 - Conduct on Postal Property
232.1 - Conduct on Postal Property.

Paragraph L
(l) Weapons and explosives. No person while on postal property may carry firearms, other dangerous or deadly weapons, or explosives, either openly or concealed, or store the same on postal property, except for official purposes.

This cited section is from the Code of Federal Regulations not the United States Code. Stuff in the USC was passed by Congress; stuff in the CFR was written by the head of various federal departments or agencies. Look up the above citation, it will have listed a statute passed by Congress as it's authority. I looked this one up a year or so ago and found the empowering statute to be one where Congress is giving the head official in the postal service authority to set work place policies. I am not a postal employee, so the Postmaster General does not have the authority to criminalize my behavior. "person" should be read as post employee, official, contractor, etc. The legislative branch passes laws; the executive branch carries out those laws.

I'm not a lawyer, nor am I giving legal advice. I'm just drawing from my personal experience and research.

NavyLT · May 5, 2010, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by apr1775

This cited section is from the Code of Federal Regulations not the United States Code. Stuff in the USC was passed by Congress; stuff in the CFR was written by the head of various federal departments or agencies. Look up the above citation, it will have listed a statute passed by Congress as it's authority. I looked this one up a year or so ago and found the empowering statute to be one where Congress is giving the head official in the postal service authority to set work place policies. I am not a postal employee, so the Postmaster General does not have the authority to criminalize my behavior. "person" should be read as post employee, official, contractor, etc. The legislative branch passes laws; the executive branch carries out those laws.

Really?!? Well let's see. 39 USC 401
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/39...1----000-.html

grants authority to the Postal Service to

Quote:

Subject to the provisions of section 404a, the Postal Service shall have the following general powers:
(1) to sue and be sued in its official name;
(2) to adopt, amend, and repeal such rules and regulations, not inconsistent with this title, as may be necessary in the execution of its functions under this title and such other functions as may be assigned to the Postal Service under any provisions of law outside of this title;

I don't see anything in that authority that causes it to apply only to employees of the Postal Service. And, section 404a referenced above does not limit their authority to employee's either:

Quote:

§ 404a. Specific limitations
(a) Except as specifically authorized by law, the Postal Service may not—
(1) establish any rule or regulation (including any standard) the effect of which is to preclude competition or establish the terms of competition unless the Postal Service demonstrates that the regulation does not create an unfair competitive advantage for itself or any entity funded (in whole or in part) by the Postal Service;
(2) compel the disclosure, transfer, or licensing of intellectual property to any third party (such as patents, copyrights, trademarks, trade secrets, and proprietary information); or
(3) obtain information from a person that provides (or seeks to provide) any product, and then offer any postal service that uses or is based in whole or in part on such information, without the consent of the person providing that information, unless substantially the same information is obtained (or obtainable) from an independent source or is otherwise obtained (or obtainable).
(b) The Postal Regulatory Commission shall prescribe regulations to carry out this section.
(c) Any party (including an officer of the Commission representing the interests of the general public) who believes that the Postal Service has violated this section may bring a complaint in accordance with section 3662.

Your turn... show us where it applies to employees only, please.

NavyLT · May 5, 2010, 05:25 PM

AND, if you want case law, apr1775, how about DEL GALLO v. PARENT in the US Court of Appeals, First Circuit.

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/script...case&no=081511

The court ruled that paragraph (h) of 39 CFR 232.1 did apply to Del Gallo, prohibiting him from engaging in campaigning activities in the parking lot of the Post Office.

So, it can be reasoned that if (h) of the CFR applies to non-employees of the Postal Service, that paragraph (l) would just as well.

Folks, really.... we don't like the regulation, OK. That's a given. But the fact is, we ain't going to find a way around it. All we can do is hope to change it.

April 30, 2010, 09:36 AM	#1
Caboclo Senior Member Join Date: November 2, 2009 Posts: 212	Post Office Parking Lot? If I go to the Post Office, can I legally leave my gun in my car in the parking lot? If so, does it have to be in a locked container inside the car, or just have the car itself locked?

April 30, 2010, 11:00 AM	#2
roge Junior Member Join Date: November 29, 2009 Posts: 13	gun left in car The most responsible way to leave gun in car when it's a must, is to secure the gun in a small, thru floor mounted safe. I bought one thru Cabela's catalog, bolted it thru car floor in the space between driver and passanger. I would'nt leave the gun just in a locked car.

April 30, 2010, 11:07 AM	#3
Gary Slider Senior Member Join Date: October 10, 2006 Location: New Martinsville, WV Posts: 432	It is against Federal Law to have a firearm on Postal Property. The Post Office does not fall under Federal buildings. They have their own laws in the Federal Code. Title 39 - Postal Service Chapter I - United States Postal Service Subchapter D - Organization and Administration Part 232 - Conduct on Postal Property 232.1 - Conduct on Postal Property. Paragraph L (l) Weapons and explosives. No person while on postal property may carry firearms, other dangerous or deadly weapons, or explosives, either openly or concealed, or store the same on postal property, except for official purposes. __________________ ___________ Gary Slider Co-Owner Handgunlaw.us Member Armed Citizens Legal Defense Network.

April 30, 2010, 03:53 PM	#9
mas12990 Member Join Date: May 30, 2009 Posts: 44	low profile i have to agree with kodiack, most times the weapon stays with me .... unless i know there are metal detectors.

May 2, 2010, 11:25 AM	#19
ronto Senior Member Join Date: January 5, 2007 Location: Smack Dab in the Middle of Nowhere. Posts: 505	This subject has been explored many times on this and other forums. To date, no one can cite a case where a CHL holder was arrested, prosecuted, found guilty, and punished for having a legal weapon in a private vehicle parked in a post office parking lot while on official business such as mailing a damn letter. If any one can cite such a case, please do so. In the meantime, don't spit on the sidewalk since there is more case law available regarding that "crime". __________________ "We will do this: we will hang together, we will keep our organization, our arms, our discipline, our hatred of oppression, until one universal shout goes up from an admiring age that this Missouri Cavalry Division preferred exile to submission, death to dishonor". General Joseph O. Shelby, CSA (1830-1897) The only Confederate General who refused to surrender himself or his 1,000+ "Iron Brigade". Last edited by ronto; May 2, 2010 at 03:02 PM. Reason: spelling

April 30, 2010, 12:44 PM	#4
kodiakbeer Junior member Join Date: April 10, 2010 Location: Kodiak, Alaska Posts: 791	It would seem to me that your car is exempt - like your home. I mean, a warrant is needed to search a vehicle (lacking probable cause, etc) just like a home, so I wouldn't be too concerned about it. In fact, a vehicle actually is some peoples home - is an RVer supposed to drop off his guns at the police station before mailing a letter? I see pick-up trucks in the Post Office parking lot with rifles and shotguns on racks in the window! I wouldn't be concerned about it.

April 30, 2010, 01:02 PM	#5
langenc Senior Member Join Date: August 19, 2007 Location: Montmorency Co, MI Posts: 1,551	Not all posters are from/live in Alaska!!

April 30, 2010, 01:13 PM	#6
kodiakbeer Junior member Join Date: April 10, 2010 Location: Kodiak, Alaska Posts: 791	Are federal laws different outside Alaska? I've lived here quite a few years, but I saw plenty of pick ups with rifle racks down below when I lived there. Maybe things have changed, but my car is still my property and I'd just slip my gun out of sight before entering the post office, the court house, whatever. Maybe that makes me a criminal?

April 30, 2010, 02:34 PM	#7
TJH3781 Senior Member Join Date: June 17, 2009 Location: Rockford IL Posts: 149	While your vehicle is your property, once it is on Gov property it is a whole different issue. The probable cause threshold maybe much lower than you think as some statures have an implied consent feature once you voluntarily enter Gov property.

April 30, 2010, 02:36 PM	#8
NavyLT Junior member Join Date: January 25, 2006 Location: Oak Harbor, WA Posts: 1,719	The Federal regulation is pretty dang self-explanatory: (l) Weapons and explosives. No person while on postal property may carry firearms, other dangerous or deadly weapons, or explosives, either openly or concealed, or store the same on postal property, except for official purposes. Store the same (meaning the firearms) on postal property means in the car in the parking lot. The firearm is still being stored on postal property, it doesn't matter if your car is wrapped around it. The question is not whether you will get caught or not. The question was whether it is illegal or not.

April 30, 2010, 04:45 PM	#11
Goatwhiskers Senior Member Join Date: April 8, 2009 Location: Batchelor, La. Posts: 579	There was an employee at the main Baton Rouge post office who was a private investigator on the side. All properly licensed and trained. Came to work one day and had forgotten to take his weapon out. That was the day when they were checking every car that entered the employee lot. He was terminated immediately. We used to have a nut case at the little country post office where I worked that would come in every day to pick up his mail with a .38 stuck in his belt until I explained a few things to him. I held a commission for 16 years never brought a weapon to work.

April 30, 2010, 06:10 PM	#12
Caboclo Senior Member Join Date: November 2, 2009 Posts: 212	Thanks for all the replies. I just wasn't sure if the applicable law had a parking lot exception spelled out.

April 30, 2010, 06:50 PM	#13
RETG Senior Member Join Date: September 22, 2009 Location: Somewhere in Idaho, near WY Posts: 507	Just remember it has to be postal property. If a post office is in a strip mall, the parking lot and surrounding walk areas are not postal property. Postal property starts when you enter the door.

April 30, 2010, 07:35 PM	#14
NavyLT Junior member Join Date: January 25, 2006 Location: Oak Harbor, WA Posts: 1,719	AND if the post office is a little branch counter in a convenience store, the postal property doesn't even start until behind the counter. In that case, you can do business at the postal counter fully armed .

May 1, 2010, 11:37 PM	#15
ncpatriot Senior Member Join Date: March 4, 2009 Location: Durham, NC Posts: 371	Post office near us was robbed a few months ago. Who knows, if not gun free, someone may have had a weapon and been able to help.

May 2, 2010, 11:39 AM	#20
n7qvu Senior Member Join Date: December 24, 2009 Location: Overgaard, AZ USA Posts: 153	I must be confused also. The GCA says that a FFL can ship a firearm via USPS. It happens often and there is a USPS form to attest to that the FFL is shipping to an authorized person. In my town, I have to visit the PO to mail anything, not from home pickup, So how is it illegal to have a gun on their property?? __________________ Jerry W. NRA Instructor: Pistol, Home Safety, Personal Protection, RSO, Reloading. NRA Life Member, NRA-ILA Sustaining Member, AZ CCW training org. & instructor, AZ HE instructor. JWsGUNs.com FFL-07, NFA SOT-C2.

May 2, 2010, 11:49 AM	#21
NavyLT Junior member Join Date: January 25, 2006 Location: Oak Harbor, WA Posts: 1,719	Mailing a firearm falls under the "except for official purposes". Official purposes refers to the presence of the firearm on postal property, not the presence of the person themselves. For instance, a cop wears his duty firearm "for official purposes". A military person wears a firearm issued to them by the government "for official purposes" (although they probably wouldn't be at the post office!) A person mailing a gun has the gun itself there for the "official purpose" of mailing it. Now, while Joe Citizen may be at the Post Office conducting postal business, the gun that he is wearing is for personal protection and is NOT for "official purposes" and, thus, illegal to possess, carry, or store on postal property.

May 2, 2010, 08:08 PM	#22
RETG Senior Member Join Date: September 22, 2009 Location: Somewhere in Idaho, near WY Posts: 507	[quote']This subject has been explored many times on this and other forums. To date, no one can cite a case where a CHL holder was arrested, prosecuted, found guilty, and punished for having a legal weapon in a private vehicle parked in a post office parking lot while on official business such as mailing a damn letter. If any one can cite such a case, please do so. In the meantime, don't spit on the sidewalk since there is more case law available regarding that "crime". [/quote] I don't believe anyone on this thread has stated people have been arrested. I only see people quoting the law as it is written. Just because you have not seen it on the internet, does not mean this has never happened.

May 5, 2010, 05:25 PM	#25
NavyLT Junior member Join Date: January 25, 2006 Location: Oak Harbor, WA Posts: 1,719	AND, if you want case law, apr1775, how about DEL GALLO v. PARENT in the US Court of Appeals, First Circuit. http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/script...case&no=081511 The court ruled that paragraph (h) of 39 CFR 232.1 did apply to Del Gallo, prohibiting him from engaging in campaigning activities in the parking lot of the Post Office. So, it can be reasoned that if (h) of the CFR applies to non-employees of the Postal Service, that paragraph (l) would just as well. Folks, really.... we don't like the regulation, OK. That's a given. But the fact is, we ain't going to find a way around it. All we can do is hope to change it.