When things go BUMP in the night. What kind of person are you?

[Drjones]

Ben:

I know what you are talking about.

My car, er, my BABY, was broken into a while ago. How smart was this guy; my $300 celly (Motorola V60) was sitting in the center console, my CD wallet containing about 300 CD's was on the pass. seat, a bag of shirts and stuff I'd just bought were in the back seat. (My car is also a 2000 BMW)

And WHAT DID THE GUY TAKE???

A $50 Cold Steel Recon tanto that was HIDDEN in the drivers door pocket!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It does make you feel totally helpless and violated to think someone ELSE was rooting around in MY CAR.

IMO, if someone breaks into your HOME, WHATEVER their intentions, they deserve to leave in a body bag. If they are going to take a chance on breaking into someones HOME, they should be rewarded with the consequences.

Idiots...

To respond to the actual thread...it would have to depend on a lot of stuff... do I happen to be home alone? Where are the noises coming from in the house and what sort of noises?

I would DEFINITELY;

1) Get all my guns. (I only have a few as of yet...)

2) Get all my family in ONE room together, give each willing person a gun.

3) Call 911

4) Begin turning on lights wherever I can in the house, trying to alert the BG to our presence. (NOT letting him know we're armed.)

If I catch sight of anyone in my house with any sort of weapon coming towards me, they're leaving via the Coroner's van. In a bag. With a lot of holes in them.

[richhelton84]

Dr. Jones is completely right. If you are dumb enough to break into my home, and I see you, you will probably leave in a body bag. I'm not for running through the house like Rambo, because I think there would be a better chance of me getting killed. It's better to play defense from a superior position where you can completely surprise him/her.

I think you've got to be very silent about it, especially if you do decide to play the hero and go on offense. I doubt that hearing the sound of a round being jacked into the chamber of a weapon is going to deter a serious, armed criminal. That will just let him know where you are, and he'd probably try to hunt you down.

My Mossberg 835 is fully loaded, cocked, and put on safe when I go to bed, then when I wake up, it is unloaded and locked up. There is also a Springfield Armory XD-357 in a drawer next to the bed. That is locked and loaded 24 hours a day.

My dog is a Boston Terrier :barf: . Unfortunately, her most ferocious bark is laughable. There is no way it would strike fear into the heart of anyone, especially someone intent on robbing/killing my family. The only thing her bark would do is wake me up so I can prepare.

I'd get the wife up, hand her the XD (she don't like the shotgun), then I'd grab the 835 and we would camp out slightly to the side of the door, so if the intruder decides to shoot through the door, it wouldn't hit us. We don't have kids yet, so I don't have to worry about them at the moment.

We would camp out by the door until either the police arrive or something decides to come through it. If someone decides to come through it, I'd blind them with my mag-lite, positively identify them, and then decide whether or not to eliminate them. If they are identified as a "bad guy", and they are armed, they had better be prepared to meet their maker.

Sure we can say all these hypothetical things about what we are or aren't going to do, but you are never certain until you are actually put in that situation. No situation is going to be like you planned, and you have to be ready to compensate for it. It's good to have a plan, but you still have to think on your feet.

Thankfully, I have never had anyone break into my house yet, and I hope all of you never experience it either. God bless you all.

Remember all of our servicemen and women fighting and dying overseas, and be sure to say a prayer for them.

Rich

[rlpinca]

Some of you are forgetting an important part. If someone breaks into your house, steals everything you have worked so hard to get and you catch them on their last trip out to their moving van, you can't shoot them. It doesn't matter if they have your gunsafe on a dolly heading out the door, you can't legally shoot them. If you do, you'll end up in prison and you will get sued by th bg's family for causing the untimely death of such a saint. It sucks but that's how the law works. Unless he has a weapon and makes like he is going to kill you, you can't shoot. Even if you see a gun on one side of his belt, 4 magazines on the other side and a shotgun slung over his shoulder, you still can't do anything until he starts to point one at you.

Some states(PRK) you still coudn't do anything until you have no way to escape. That's right, if you can still make it out of your house, you have to be the one that runs away.

[richhelton84]

I didn't realize that, and I'm not certain that your information is totally correct. I suppose it's just a chance I'd have to take. He can have everything in the house as long as he doesn't get too greedy and tries to come into the room where my wife and I are camping out.

If he does come into that room we are in, I'd still shoot him with no hesitation. If he has a gun in his hand, or even a gun on him that I can see, he is going to die, the law be damned. I will never take any chances with my family's safety, espacially in a potential life or death situation. I'd rather do the jail time then have my family and I wiped out.

Rich

[Drjones]

Sorry, rlpinca, but you are just wrong.

In the wonderful, lovely land of Texas, you CAN shoot anyone who tresspasses on your property, and/or anyone who is stealing/attempting to steal from you.

Ex: You are woken up in the middle of the night, look out the window, and see someone's smashed your car window and is attempting to steal it. You are perfectly legally justified in shooting them dead.

Also, I don't care what state you are in, I do not believe that the BG actually has to be POINTING a weapon at you for you to be "legally" justified in shooting.

Laws aside, if I see someone in MY house with ANY sort of a weapon, ESPECIALLY a gun, they are dead. I HIGHLY doubt the reason they have it is because they just want to borrow your cleaning kit!

And according to Massad Ayoob in "Gravest Extreme," if you do happen across an armed intruder in your home, Ayoob TELLS YOU to shoot him IN THE BACK until he is "neutralized." Why? What do you think he's going to do if you yell "freeze!" like in the movies? He isn't going to freeze, and he sure as hell isn't going to drop his weapon! He's likely going to turn and start shooting as soon as he sees you!

Regardless, I see an armed individual in my house, he's gone. I wouldn't hesitate to shoot him in the back if he was armed.

[Drjones]

Also:

I live in CA, and I'm not so sure that you gotta run, even out of your own house. I think pretty much all US states basically are of the opinion that "a man's home is his castle" and if you are in danger of being harmed/killed, you CAN use deadly force in your home. Other states fortunately have more liberal laws regarding shooting someone over your property, like texas.

If I'm wrong in stating this (and I'm not a lawyer) well, I just don't care. Break into my house with a weapon in hand and you are dead. That simple.

[rlpinca]

I have talked to a Texas DPS officer and a chl instructor about this specific scenario not too long ago. I had heard that about Texas and a few other states. They said, if you or someone else is being endangered, then you can shoot. What sense does it make to legally be able to shoot someone just because they are trespassing? Imagine the media going crazy wtih something like that. A kid slashing tires in some Texan's driveway gets shot at, the antis would go absolutely nuts with something like that. How is defending a car a justifiable reason for killing someone? If you think it is, then just tell the prosecutor that it was ok when he is getting ready to send you away.

California, you have to more or less be backed into a corner to shoot an intruder. If the threat is unavoidable, then you can fire, if you can run away, then the threat is avoidable. I talked to several officers while I lived out there(San Diego area) about that also.

I believe in checking on stuff personally and not just relying on websites. Talk to several police officers and maybe even someone that works for the DAs office in your area before you make any decisions on how to protect yourself.

There's definately a difference between shooting someone in self defense and in shooting someone out of revenge for messing with your stuff. Shootings like that get good people put in prison and it gives antis more propaganda to use. I'm all for protecting my property, but be realistic about it. A broken windshield or stolen TV isn't worth spending a significant portion of your life in jail.

Don't get me wrong, if someone broke into my house I wouldn't just stand there and let them get away. If they had a weapon and were posing a threat to me, I wouldn't hesitate to introduce them to some serious hate and discontent. If they didn't have a weapon, they sure as hell wouldn't get away.

Here's a link that pretty accurately describes deadly force.

http://home.earthlink.net/~spwenger/spwforce.html

I have read the gravest extreme and respect ayoob greatly. But you have to realize that a prosecutor is going to say that you shot the bg in the back while he was trying to get away from you. Everyone knows that juries seem to be somewhat gullible when it comes to shootings. An anti gun jury (becoming very common) wouldn't hesitate to send someone away for shooting someone in the back regardless of the circumstances.

[Drjones]

You are wise, little one!

Glad to see you are indeed so well-informed on this subject! I apologise for doubting that!

At any rate, I do agree that a car or most other property isn't worth shooting someone over. However, I wouldn't look down upon someone who was trying to defend what is rightfully theirs. There was quite an extensive thread on this a while ago.

Basically, it comes down to this: if you do not steal someone's car, you will not get shot at. Try to steal someone's car, and you should be ready to take the chance that they will shoot at you.

My talk about the texas laws is based only on what I've read here. There are lots of Texans on these forums.

Again, laws aside, if someone breaks into my home and they are armed, unless they are running away from me, they're leaving my house dead. I'm not flexible on that point.

[rlpinca]

I can understand the desire to kill someone messing with your home. But the desire to stay away from a big cuddly cellmate is pretty strong too. How good can you protect your family in prison?

I agree that the bg shouldn't put himself into that position, but the law doesn't seem to care about that. If it were legal to kill someone for screwing up like that, then maybe crime would take a drastic nosedive all across the country. Kids wouldn't be too anxious about spray painting the side of someone's garage and bums would decide to leave my car stereo where it is.

[OkieCruffler]

Come to my house looking for trinkets to trade for crack, and you will become damaged goods. I'll take my chances with a dozen peers. Besides, if I don't take the guy out and the next person he hits is your grandmother who surprises him in the middle of him loading up her good silver...Scum is scum and some gene pools need a little chlorinating.

[dinojas]

If I'm not sure of it being an intruder then I will go out as stealth as possible to see. If I am certain it is an intruder... I will wait quietly for them to come to me while I go ahead and try to call the cops.

[Blackhawk]

One armed and one held hostage is infinity worse than none armed and both held hostage.

Care to recast that sentence....?

[Glamdring]

If a "Bump in the Night" wakes me up the nightstand weapon, a 629 loaded with 44 specials, is in my hand very quickly.

I won't leave the room until/wnless I have time to wake up. Also spend the wake up time listening.

Only once or twice have I ever needed to go and check out noise (ie clear the house). Usually figure out what woke me up and can go back to sleep.

[pbarrick]

I fall into a subset of the barricade-in-place crowd.

If I'm in my safe room and all my loved one's are accounted for, my best response to an intruder would be what John Holschen of Insights Training Center (a phenomenal instructor, a man with an extensive background as an operator and an exceptionally nice guy!):

Ensconced, armed and having called 911, I would announce loudly: "Intruder! I am armed and the police are on their way! Leave the house NOW!!"

Three things could occur at this point.

1) The Bad Guy leaves--problem solved.
2) The Bad Guy stays but doesn't approach--the police are better suited for and tasked to resolve this problem.
3) The Bad Guy stays and tries to break in to my safe room--this won't go well for the Bad Guy.

I think this approach makes the most sense because it puts me in the most tactically advantageous position to deal with a known or suspected threat while following John Holschen's mission statement of minimizing the impact [of the situation] to me and mine.

[the blind lefty]

we have a guard oriented 200# mastiff upstairs,and a 110# maniac american bulldog in the basement.we have a security system.
i sleep on the floor,which just so happens to be next to my biggest revolver.
we used to have another mastiff who passed away last year.the 3 dog dynamic was confidence inspiring:they all reacted aggressively to exposions. the mastiffs have the sheer size and power,while my american bulldog would fight to the blood and guts end.she is bred from weight pulling lines and stands only 23" at the shoulders at over 100 pounds. additionally,she hates everyone,and will not eat food from strangers;even days later,if i try to feed it to her. she only likes 5 people in the world.
that said,i would advance in a strategic progression,and shoot an intruder to death if he managed to make it through the dogs(good time for Cold Steel Recon Scout as well). if he had determined friends,then it's probably SWAT,and there's been a terrible mistake.
i guess this sounds worse than it is. i'm really an easy going fella,and not paranoid about the situation at all.

[pax]

Lots of food for thought in this thread.

Me, I wouldn't try to clear the house unless I had no other option to keep my family safe. Someone once told me that the proper term for clearing a house is "Looking for someone to kill you."

That said, I'm realistically aware that it will probably be necessary for me to move from my downstairs bedroom to my children's upstairs hallway or bedrooms. I've thought through our floor plan and where the danger points are, walking through in daylight, low light, and no light to see how it changes with the lighting. I'm aware that doorways are dangerous, and have decided which spots are more defensible than others, if I'm not safely hidden in my room with the gun pointed at the door.

Bottom line. I'd rather huddle in a safe room and plan for the police to handle it unless the safe room is violated. But with as many family members as I've got, I don't see all of us getting to the safe room without me physically moving from Point 'A' to Point 'B'.

pax

If you don't risk anything, you risk even more. -- Erica Jong

[larryw]

I'm with Mr. Barrick. Our house has a bad layout for hunting around at night: the stairs that lead from the bedrooms to the rest of the house have blind corners on both sides of the landing. Besides, the only things that I really care about, my family, all sleep upstairs. I'd push the 911 button on the alarm panel (connected with cellular backup) in our room, grab my gun and take a position at the top of the stairs that allows me to see the flight, but remain hidden. If someone is foolish enough to walk up the stairs, they's be warned once: "I'm armed and the police are on the way". If they continued, they'd be "stopped" by a 45ACP to the chest.

By the way, if you're a barricade in place type, do you always keep a cell phone or other way to call 911 in your bedroom? If I were a BG, first thing I'd do in a house is take the phone off the hook so the homeowner can't call out.

[Glamdring]

FYI 911 isn't something to rely on. When I was in college I worked security jobs, more than once 911 would be busy (911 was my "backup"), even if you got thru they were not to likely to come.

If you really NEEDED help you needed to call fire department in that city, they always responded quickly.

I don't claim to have years of experiance in LE/covert ops or any such, but I do get tired of some of the stuff that is "taught" by "experts".

The police in your area might actually respond to calls, have you ever done any checking to find out? How long does it take on average? What is longest time they have ever taken to respond to a call? Do they ignore or chose not to respond to some calls?

I live in MN, and at least twice when 911 was called from work weather prevented any quick response from LE. Both times mild snow storms early in the winter led to lots of minor and majer traffic problems and LE couldn't respond to every call right away. Because of the volume of calls, and also because of poor driving conditions.

Other times the call seems to magically disappear from their records.

I am not saying don't call 911, but people should remember it isn't a magic wand that will make problem dissappear.

Also a true safe room is supposed to be hardend to the point that it can resist attack for as long as it is expected for help to arrive.

You really should have a plan B in case 911 doesn't work. Also you should realize a GOOD response time is anything under 10-15 minutes.
***

I wish someone would do some reprints of the newsletter Cooper and Tappin used to write. I was a bit to young to read them when they first came out

I have seen some ideas quoted from that newsletter that sound usefull to me. Like having a light switch in master bedroom wired to turn on light somewhere away from bedroom to draw fire away.

[stinger]

rlpinca,
With all due respect, do not take advice from a LEO or a website, unless it happens to come from the lawmakers themselves.

In the great state of Texas, if somebody breaks into your home, you are legally justified in shooting them. They don't have to have fangs or a crowbar. They committed a felony, and your life could possibly be in danger. Many other states have the same type of law, it's called "Make my day" or something like that.
Now if they lie down on their slitthering belly and beg for mercy, that's a different story. As long as they are standing, they present a threat. Front sight, squeeze.

But don't take legal advice from me either. I won't shoot anybody unless there is no other action to be taken. I will barraced myself in my room, if possible. I'm not stupid enough to go looking for some goon in the pitch black.

Stinger

[Hemicuda]

Silent but deadly...

gun will be racked as quitely as possible...

[SgtGunner]

If I wake in the wee hours of the morning to some fool with my tv in both hands, I need not worry about doing anything...........he will be easy to spot at the emergency room..........he's the guy with the triple hernia. that thing weighs a flippin ton.

[ahenry]

I have talked to a Texas DPS officer and a chl instructor about this specific scenario not too long ago. I had heard that about Texas and a few other states. They said, if you or someone else is being endangered, then you can shoot. What sense does it make to legally be able to shoot someone just because they are trespassing? Imagine the media going crazy wtih something like that.

Try actually reading the law. You are wrong about the Texas law. Read it for yourself and see.

[kungfool]

Regardless of whatever the law is in any particular state, common sense is common sense.

I would immidiately arm myself and make my wife aware there was a problem. I would quietly remain still from whatever vantage point I had. (whether it be behind the bed or simply sitting in the dark) I would instruct my wife to call 911 (anybody ever hear of cell phones?)they canot be "taken off the hook".

I would then maintain surveilence and wait for the cops. But just as soon as I located the threat i would zero in on it. I would not shoot someone who was not in my house. Enter the house and everything changes. I am going to apply common-sense, and common-sense would dictate to me not to take any chances with anyone who would be so brazen and bold as to break into my house, especially with me home!

As far as however the state wants to rewrite common-sense laws, it comes down to his word against mine......and he won't be saying much..............

[richhelton84]

quote:
"it comes down to his word against mine......and he won't be saying much.............."

I agree with you totally on that one, kungfool.

Rich

[rlpinca]

If I'm wrong about the law in Texas try shooting an unarmed trespasser that is posing no immediate danger to your or your family and see where you end up. Like I said before, no state(that I know of) has a provision to allow someone to kill another person out of revenge or protection of property.

If you're sure about it, then post a link to an official DPS related site and show me that it says killing a kid messing around in your backyard is legal. There are pages that list such laws.

Although not an official site, here's a story about a DA telling ranchers they cannot shoot at illegal aliens tresspassing on their property. He says you are allowed to use force, but not deadlyforce.

http://www.ranchrescue.com/news_arti...respassers.PDF

I went ahead and looked it up in one of my books.

Texas Penal Code, Title 2, Chapt 9, Sub chapter D
Sec. 9.42. DEADLY FORCE TO PROTECT PROPERTY. A person is justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or tangible, movable property:
1 if he would be justified in using force against the other under Section 9.41(I'll post that if anyone is interested); and
2 when and to the degree he reasonably believes the deadly force is IMMEDIATELY necessary:
A to prevent the other's imminent commission of arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime; or
B to prevent the other who is fleeing immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the property; and
3 he reasonably believes that:
A the land or property CANNOT be protected or recovered by ANY other means; or
B the use of force other than deadly force to protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury.



It leaves alot of vague areas, but a jury would have fun with it. It says nothing about shooting a tresspasser like many believe they are able to, unless they are breaking a few laws, and even then under very specific circumstances.

Like I said in an earlier post. Protect your family, that's your responsibility as a man, but you can't do that from a prison cell.


<<Try actually reading the law. You are wrong about the Texas law. Read it for yourself and see>>

Nope, your turn to read it. Because of ignorance of the law, or just listening to urban legends about it, alot of people are in prison for doing what they thought was allowed.

How do you like them apples?