Scenario: What would you do?

[BrianB]

I'm not sure I read that last one correctly. OC as in pepper spray? Against an armed man?

Anyway, interesting thread. I noticed a lot of the responses assumed things that quite possibly won't be the case, time being one of them. Withdrawing and getting the customers out of the restaurant may be a good idea, but that's going to take a lot of tme, and it's going to take your attention away from the gunman. Not only that, you increase the risk of drawing the gunman's attention toward the rest of the patrons. And now you've got your attention divided.

The first thing to do is to look out the window. Is there a car and driver awaiting the subject? Just one occupant? Is the car in a position to see into the restaurant? These are good things to know. You can't be a mindreader, but you can try to pick up on the state of the gunman as much as possible. Drugged? Nervous? Agressive? Apologetic? There are all kinds of surface emotions that might be readable in a short period of time, from body language or voice.

Once you've made a (very fast, and probably not reliable) assesment, you need to decide (very quickly) whether or not to use force. If you decide not to, stay out of sight. If you decide force is necessary, better to draw while concealed around the corner, and perhaps better to engage from a lower position when you come back around the corner.

If you do engage, do you give a verbal command or do you simply shoot the guy? I'd have to say that it's probably best for everyone to give the verbal command. so long as the person's gun is pointed away from the clerk. If the clerk's still at the point of the gun, you'd better skip the verbiage, and aim for a CNS hit and hope that your accuracy holds up under the pressure and adrenaline.

Keeping in mind, you've probably got a couple of seconds at best to assess the situation and decide to act and how to act. I'd have to say the best preparation for this kind of scenario isn't so much in reviewing use of force (gun pointing at victim, use of force justified right there) as in practicing your ability to quickly take in as many details as possible. You certainly don't want to engage the guy if he's got a car full of armed partners just outside, or for that matter seated at one of the tables. On the other hand, you may be compelled to engage regardless if the subject seems intent on meyhem.)

Just my .02.

[pdmoderator]

See the following thread:

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...hreadid=137754

If you (a) are within range; (b) can get a good shot at the BG, and; (c) have the good stuff within a year after manufacture and and fully charged: then it might work about as reliably as a firearm in this scenario. And it certainly avoids some of the dilemmas pointed out in this thread.

Plus, if you don't have a firearm, ya gotta use what ya got.

Just trying to think outside the box here.

- pdmoderator

[BrianB]

Sounds like good stuff. Given the unlikelihood of concealed carry in the PRK, it might be a viable alternative in a tight spot.

[pbarrick]

OC spray against a gun isn't a winning scenario. It doesn't control the firearm and the BG has the ability to pull a trigger while suffering the effects of OC. At contact distance, it might be viable to close with OC and engage empty-empty hand but I certainly wouldn't close if I wasn't already close to the BG.

I think, the way the scenario was initially described, you would be better off making for an exit (or making an exit--i.e., bust a window) and moving to a position of cover and then call the police/EMS. Distance=safety.

[pdmoderator]

Gun against gun isn't a winning scenarion either, if the BG has it aimed and his finger on the trigger. Same reasons.

- pdmoderator

[Cowdogpete]

I love scenarios. They are essential to the training process. Whenever I train or train someone else I develop a scenario for the stage I'm shooting.

In addition when I'm driving with nothing else to do I'll run through scenarios mentally. I also dry fire and practice my draw, stance and presentation from time to time with out a weapon at all. Think of it as Kata.

With that said don't over analyze your scenarios. You can't predict every thing that will happen. Encounters are not static. They are constantly changing and moving.

In the above scenario:

Do the other patrons know what’s going on or are you the only one that’s seen the robber?
Has anyone else noticed he has a gun?
If you take a shot, what happens to the hysterical person that just noticed what’s happening and runs across your line of site just as you pull the trigger?
If you take the shot how do you know he’s going to drop? A single shot to instantly kill is difficult. Will his reflexes discharge his weapon that’s pointed at the clerk? Will he turn and fire multiple rounds around the room in a dieing fit rage.
Have you ever shot anyone before? (don’t actually answer this …I’ve been chastised enough). Truth: You don’t know how you will react in this situation until you are there. Training can help, but you still are unproven until actually there.
Is the guy just after the money or is he really intending to kill some one? If he can take the cash and go; will he?
Is there available cover? Is there an alternate way out? Does he have an accomplice? Is the second man inside or out? Does he have a gun too?

If I find myself in the above engagement what do I do? I have absolutely no idea.

I train to do this: Assess the situation. Can I escape? Can I get to cover? Can I deescalate the situation?
Then I have to answer these questions:
Can I draw my weapon before he can train his on me? What are his intentions?
Am I justified in killing him? Am I emotionally capable of killing him? Am I financially capable of defending myself in court? What are the ramifications of killing him? Will the cops shoot me thinking I’m the bad guy? Will another CCW holder shoot me thinking I just shot a customer paying for his pizza? Etc. etc. etc.

Keep in mind that if you shoot someone and are completely no-billed for the shooting, even if they throw you a parade, these things are going to happen. You will be arrested. The cops probably will point their guns at you and cuss at you. The cops may rough you up. They will take your gun. You will be handcuffed and stuffed into a smelly scout car. You will be removed from your family and taken to jail. You will go to court. You will have to pay for your defense. How will your family, the community, your co-workers, your boss view all this? Even if you are justified you can count on being sued by the deceased’s family. Here comes civil court. More costs. More time away from work and family.

I’ve could go on but you’re starting to get the idea by now. Talking these scenarios out in these forums may or may not be good. I’m still sitting the fence. Too much second-guessing and what ifs. But it serves to explore all the possibilities of what can go wrong or what else the shooter must be aware of.

When you train you take the shot. When you practice mentally you take the shot. When you are thrust into a lethal force situation you must assess all the factors, answer all the questions I posted, all the what ifs and questions everyone else posted, and do it all as fast as you can blink an eye. Then you will still not know how you will react or if you will react.

[CULLENIII]

Using judgement --plan a pull gun and shoot attacker --depends on body language, gun readiness ie cocked, temper of attacker, plan b---duck behind pull gun retreat while protecting other people--while calling 911 on cell

[Talon66]

Since he hasn't seen me, I'd make my way out back with the rest of the patrons, call 911 and take up a defensive position.

[OF]

I also think that anyone who says they know what they would do is full of it, unless they have expierenced this situation previously.

A very good point. Although that is no reason not to discuss it. And I believe the thought process that you must engage in during the discussion just might be of value if you are ever in that situation.

It would be more accurate to say that I am stating what I sincerely hope I would do. Summoning the will is another story, certainly. There are many here who have had the will, and I'm sure many who found they did not. There are some here who will eventually find out. But the greatest number will never have to, and talking about it is as close as they will get. In which case, all the talk may have been a waste of time. The thing is, you never know which group you're in beforehand.

Someone once said that nature is the hardest teacher, as she gives the exam first and the lesson only afterward.

- Gabe

[univtxattorney]

That said, it's hammer back and take aim if a clean shot is available. If it looks like the robber does not intend to kill (but merely using his weapon to scare the clerk and rob), I let'em go. If it appears that the clerk is going to be killed or shot, I would likely take him out.

If the BG has a gun, I am going to assume it's not for window-dressing. If you don't want to get shot, you shouldn't go around waiving a gun in an innocent person's face. I think you have to assume he is going to use it and use yours to protect innocent life.

[Twycross]

Seriously, are you truly willing to risk your life, your freedom, and the twenty to fifty thousand dollars it will cost you to defend yourself against an automatic homicide charge, all for a total stranger?

In a heartbeat. As a human male, I believe that that is one of my functions here on earth.

I would view a verbal challenge as almost mandatory. To omit this, unless you believe betraying your presense would result in the death of the victim, looks really bad to a jury.

Fleeing the scene is not an option. You have the ability to stop the crime, and to not do so is to aid the BG.

[armedandsafe]

I would (and have) intervene. The act of pointing a gun at someone during the commission of a felony is attempted murder. Scope out the scene with one quick look while drawing, shout to distract the perp and shoot.

Pops

[snacktrack]

I really enjoyed reading the responses on this thread. However, theoretical scenarios are really just acacemic. I would have to say I would rely on my instincts as it unfolded. If you think it out in your mind before hand, guaranteed it wont happen that way if it ever was to happen. I trust my instincts in a situation like this. There are determining factors that are hard to describe and that can only be "felt" I believe.

I do agree with a bunch of points on here, such as its not about the money in this situation, its about saving a life. There is no way to judge whats going through someones head. If the gun is already pointed at the clerk, it takes a fraction of a second to go from alive to dead clerk for whatever reason, he is taking too long to get the money or he is paranoid of being identified.Someone who is pointing a gun at someone innocent for 100-200 dollars? They dont have any respect for life.

So honestly, I dont know what I would do. I would take the shot for sure if I knew my life wouldnt be ruined by having to defend my actions, and that I could get a clean shot without being noticed.

Also the person who asked whether your actions would be different if the gun was pointed at a pregnant woman makes an interesting point. I would have to say if a gun was pointed at any member of my family or friend the BG has already made the choice for me. This a tough situation to be in. A robbery's motive by nature is about money and most just want the money. BG's realize nobody is going to hand you money if you dont have a gun pointed at them. But whether or not that BG is the one who wants the money AND doesnt care if that poor clerk's head is blown off, its a gamble. Im going to leave it up to my Spidey sense to make that decision if I ever am in this scenario.

[Topthis]

I am in agreement with "scenarios", too much room for subjectives and no real details. I am wondering why the hell a robber would take down a pizza joint filled with patrons? He is gonna get $200 at the most and have to worry about 11 other people identifying him? A scenario where they are closing up shop and you are the only person there, finishing up a late snack...now that is more realistic.
In this case...I would use "The Force" and make his weapon fly out of his hand, into mine! Then I would fry him with the laser beams that shoot out of my eyes, followed by my Freezey Breath so that he would be detained until the police arrive!!
I mean...since we are talking hypotheticals...right??

[Dwight55]

I am no expert by any means in "reading" other people, . . . but if there are several patrons, . . . armed pistol robbery in progress, . . . I have my 1911 and am within 35 feet, . . . and have a clear shot:

I am going to quietly and unobtrusively as possible, . . . un-holster and get behind some kind of cover. Line up on him with best shot possible, . . . probably COM if 25 to 35 ft, . . . head/neck at less than 25.

I would apply all my "reading" skills I could muster to determine in my mind that this guy is or is not going to shoot. If he convinces me that he is after the cash, . . . chances are he will get out, . . . I'll call 911 later, . . . no shots fired.

I would look particularly at how he is holding the weapon, what kind of weapon is it (single action revolver not cocked???? he ain't shooting nobody), . . . is his finger on the trigger, . . . is he shakey/nervous, . . . is he cool, . . . is he looking around at an accomplice, . . . check him out. I trusted my instincts and reading ability for 60 years and so far it has done me well.

The instant he gives me cause to believe he is intent on shooting, . . . he is going down, . . . then, there, 1911 style. In order to do that, . . . remember you gotta get unholstered, . . . get that sight picture, . . . threat scan right & left, . . . get some cover, . . . you have been placed by some sort of destiny to be there, that day, at that place, at that time, . . . make the best decision you can. You are responsible for it.

May God bless,
Dwight

[Radiki]

Just my quick 2cents here:

"All that is need for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing"

I agree that one should sum up the situation as best they can before making the shot. Accomplices? Exits? Collateral Damage? But at best in a situation like this, you will only have a couple of seconds. My opinon: Take cover while drawing, clear line of sight-aim, verbal command and if there isn't a downward movement of the gun immediately fire. And rotational movement towards you, fire. Any more threatning move towards pizzaboy, fire. Down is about the only option he is walking out of there -- and into jail.

This reminds me though of a situation though. About two years ago, two men tried robbing a resturant near my house. They couldn't have been from around here or they would know they picked the wrong resturant. This particular place is where most of the local cops hang out after their shift. They were walking towards the counter while drawing their weapons. They got about two feet before there must have been a dozen of so weapons pointed at them. So in this situation, what are the other 10 patrons doing? Because if you shoot and they didn't know what what happening, they might assume you are the BG and one of them might take you down. As for a BG outside. If they see their partner get dropped they are more than likely going to flee not go inside. No loyalty among thieves. But if there is another inside somewhere he would probably try to fight his way out.

[Travis Bickle]

Well, here in Colorado, the law says:

"Deadly physical force may be used only if a person reasonably believes a lesser degree of force in inadequate and...

(a bunch of 'or' situations)

or:

c) The other person is committing... robbery as defined in section 184-301 or 184-302 (which includes armed robbery) (CRS 18-1-704)


Even so, my training says to draw only to prevent loss of live or prevent serious injury. Even though it would seem to be legal in Colorado to shoot an armed robber, I would not draw unless the guy did more than pull the gun, because I would avoid escalating the situation. Chances are the guy is not going to shoot, and by me drawing, I'm escalating the situation. But if it is clear that the situation has already escalated, and he's already shot or is probably going to shoot, I might draw.

[caegal]

Here is the second half of the scenerio:

you do draw and he just happens to catch a reflection in a toaster of you. He turns and you are dead.

Or...

You draw just as he is turning his head, he steps to the side and grabs the pizza boy. Now you have escalated the situation to a hostage situation, and may be legally responsible for any deaths that occur.

Or...

You shoot the guy in the head, the police come and pick up the gun. It turns out to be fake. The guys brothers best friend knows Jesse Jackson, or his mom is head of 44 Moms Against Guns (or 44 MAG for short), or the Brady foundation finds out about it. Even if you are not found guilty, the lawyer fees for both the criminal and civil cases against you will be measured in the 100's of thousands.

Or...

You pull the trigger, the BG's gun discharges as his muscles spasm one last time. Pizza boy gets killed. The parents and DA agree that if you didnt think you were John Wayne, the BG would never of pulled the trigger. You are now responsible for the death of the Pizza boy.

Or...

You draw your gun and point it, a person behind you misunderstands the situation and tackles you as you are pulling the trigger. In all cases like this, the bullet immediately goes into the pregnant woman. (murphys law). The DA believes that the situation would of worked itself out if you didnt pull the gun and finds that you were neglegent for trying to play Dirty Harry, without the proper training.

Or...

Everything goes perfectly! Bang, bad guy dies. Pizza boy lives. Customers herald you as a hero. Free pizza! The DA investigates and finds out that a vast majority of armed robberies (I believe it is in the high 90%) are performed without anybody being shot. The legal questions are now,
"do you believe your life was in danger?" (NO)
"Was the pizza boys life in danger?"(yes)
"Did your actions escalate the situation??" (yes, someone is now dead)
The DA flips a coin and prosecutes.

Or...

The police and DA are a bit freaked out about the precidence that this shooting will set. Now they have to worry about vigilantes running around the city shooting bad guys. This is very bad for them politically.

[Edison Carter]

Old thread, but still a good scenario.

It seems to me that there is plenty of legal and moral justificaton
to shoot the bad guy in the back of the head.... A clear opportunity to
fire: the scenario was....

Immediate defense of life. It's not about money, at all....

But wait, this pizza place has a liquor license, and carrying a gun there
is a fourth degree felony.

So sorry, I don't have my gun, HERE.

I'm out the back exit, so sorry.

I'll call 911 for you though. Good luck with all that.

EC

[big daddy 9mm]

If I knew that I would not go to jail and I had a bunch of witnesses, I would blow his fuccin head off. other wise call the cops ftom a safe distance. but in the 'more perfect world' I like the statement about people behind him being armed and ready. wazzzup bich! I love guns.... I love people who love guns...... here in ohio there are 2 ci ci's pizza's that have the very dangerous sign 'no guns' and I think to my self 'I almost hope this place gets robbed to make a point about that stupidity. all these people defenseless. not me! guns are not dangerous, stupid people are I love you guys enjoy life

[shield20]

BG threatening to use deadly force, committing a robbery, is a shootable situation. (this in NY anyway)...

S 35.15 Justification; use of physical force in defense of a person.
1. A person may, subject to the provisions of subdivision two, use
physical force upon another person when and to the extent he reasonably
believes such to be necessary to defend himself or a third person from
what he reasonably believes to be the use or imminent use of unlawful
physical force by such other person
...
2. A person may not use deadly physical force upon another person
under circumstances specified in subdivision one unless:
(a) He reasonably believes that such other person is using or about to
use deadly physical force. Even in such case, however, the actor may not use deadly physical force if he knows that he can with complete safety
as to himself and others avoid the necessity of so doing by retreating;

except that he is under no duty to retreat if he is:

(i) in his dwelling and not the initial aggressor; or
(ii) a police officer or peace officer or a person assisting a police
officer or a peace officer at the latter`s direction, acting pursuant to
section 35.30; or
(b) He reasonably believes that such other person is committing or
attempting to commit a kidnapping, forcible rape, forcible criminal
sexual act or robbery; or


Legally the defense/justification is there. Sooo - would I intervene at this point? Really tough call - something I will have to think about now, so I would know what I would do then. Hmmm...

[Relayer]

With all due repsect, I think some of you would be pushing women and children out of the way in order to get a seat in a lifeboat on the Titanic.

It takes about .5 second for the BG to put a bullet in the innocent skull of the cashier. For all your reading of the BG, up until then you can't know if he's gonna off him or not. You'll "know" when the brains splatter against the wall. If you're fortunate, maybe none will get on you.

If I'm the cashier, I praying that one of you good souls will take this guy down (or do your damndest just BEFORE he decides to put a slug in me. If it's your daughter that's the cashier, I bet your hoping for the same. Or maybe you'd rather me wait to see if the nice BG is gonna pull the trigger on your daughter, first, and then I'll take him out.

Of course, few of us can absolutely say what your actually going to do in this situation, but this thread is logically more what you think you'd do if confronted with it. If I am, I pray that I have the moral courage to do the right thing. I'm praying you do, too.

[RsqVet]

Guys ---

Clearly a lot is going ot be riding on the surroundings and the read you have of the BG even if it's happening very quickly --- guy walks up quietly with a gun demands money --- much diffirent than guy walks in screaming "gangsta style"

In any armed robbery, the threat on life is implicit and I don't think anyone would have a criminal legal problem unless they did something stupid.

All of the points about alternative options, leaving through the back door, getting all the other patrons out and so forth are excellent and depending upon the exact situation one ot the things I might do. That being said if you have an absolutly clean no collateral damage shot, and confidance in your shot, I say take it, by doing so and ending it you are absolutly preventing escalation. Again all of the dynamics of a real life situation can't make it into a scenario discussion but if there is a chance of having to shoot I would much rather shoot on my terms, preferably with cover and suprise on my side than wait and possibly end up in a gun fight.

[racinstylez]

I am here in the state of texas. so pretty much everyone 21 and older has a CHL here, and you can count on that. I know of several differant stories where BGs were shot and killed while leaving the robbery. The problem is that the BGs know of this high risk that they would get shot in the end would end the life of anyone they were robbing. If it were me, and I could get a clear shot I would take it. Better his life ending than the cashier.

BUT :

Maybe the cashier and robber are in it together.

Maybe there is other suspects around.

Maybe the gun is fake.

Maybe the gun isnt loaded.



TOO many things that coudl happen, and me not being a police officer would not want to end up going to jail for trying to protect other people. That being said. I would probably just hid or escape and call the proper authorties.

[axslingerW]

I bought my first handgun and applied for a ccw permit the day after my wife and I watched a friend get robbed at gunpoint. I called 911 from my cellphone and observed where the BG went. If a gun had been available that night I would not have hesitated to kill. This was at a 7/11 I stop at every night, and the night clerk is a friend of mine. I thought I was going to watch him die. I will NEVER be in that position again.