not too much talk on here about Sub-Machine GUns

Jamie Young · November 12, 2000, 02:40 PM

Is it possible to have a Sub-Machine gun like an Uzi in something larger than .45acp? Or does it become an Assualt Rifle once you get into Larger Calibers.

Art Eatman · November 12, 2000, 02:52 PM

I haven't been by "Full Auto" to see if you asked, there.

Anyhow, "sub-machine gun" is a class of full-auto critter which uses pistol cartridges. SFAIK, .45ACP is as big as any of them get. Remember, "caliber" refers to bullet size, not overall cartridge size.

Anybody else chimes in, I'll move it to FullAuto...

Art

Jamie Young · November 12, 2000, 02:55 PM

Yeah I didn't think of that. When is TFL getting a Chatroom Art?

[This message has been edited by SodaPop (edited November 12, 2000).]

Art Eatman · November 13, 2000, 12:46 AM

I'll tell you waht I told a fella wondering about 1930s sub-guns: Ezell's "Small Arms of the World" is a good reference.

I'm gonna move this to Full Auto.

As to Chat Room, I'd say we're about as busy moderating this joint as we can stand!

Regards, Art

Benjamin · November 15, 2000, 12:20 PM

Well, there are a number of heavily chopped firearms which fall somewhere between a carbine and a subgun...

Examples include:

Krinkov (8" ak-74 w/folder)
Some early AR variants had a 10" or 12" barrel
DSA makes a 13" barreled FAL, and I believe that they offered it with a folder

Did I miss (m)any?

Correia · November 15, 2000, 12:47 PM

Art is right, the nomeculture of "subgun" refers to pistol cartridges, its not neccisarly a larger cartridge that makes it a rifle, it is the fact it fires rifle cartridges. Then there are pistols that shoot rifle bullets so it can all become very confusing.

There are lots of short barreled rifles, the Germans seem to be big on that, but if you want a really BIG subgun, look at the sledgehammers at www.tromix.com

.44 mag, .50 AE, .440 Corbon. Wow. I figure that technically they are subguns.

Jamie Young · November 15, 2000, 07:43 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Correia:
Art is right, the nomeculture of "subgun" refers to pistol cartridges, its not neccisarly a larger cartridge that makes it a rifle, it is the fact it fires rifle cartridges. Then there are pistols that shoot rifle bullets so it can all become very confusing.

There are lots of short barreled rifles, the Germans seem to be big on that, but if you want a really BIG subgun, look at the sledgehammers at www.tromix.com

.44 mag, .50 AE, .440 Corbon. Wow. I figure that technically they are subguns.[/quote]

I'm really thinking about UZI's when I think of Sub Guns. I've seen some Uzi's with really long barrels Mostly Israeli Airport Security. I am just wondering if you can actually take something like that to a range and hit anything at 100yds with them? I've never fired an Uzi but I would figure that they would have to have a pretty heavy barrel for high rates of fire? Plus they should be able to jack up the pressure on something like a .45acp right?

**4V50 Gary** · November 16, 2000, 12:12 AM

Concur. SMGs by definition are full auto capable weapons firing a pistol caliber cartridge.

Modernly, we have Assault Rifles or carbine versions of them which are the approximate size of WW II SMGs. A good example is the Soviet Krinkov or the US M4 carbine. However, these still fire intermediate size rifle cartridge and while they may be pressed into SMG roles, are not in the strict sense SMGs.

Correia · November 16, 2000, 10:26 AM

SodaPop, the inability to hit stuff at longer ranges with a subgun isn't really a function of the size of the weapon, more of the amount of drop of the bullets at those ranges. And a heavier barrel holds up better to sustained fire, but in reality sustained fire isn't really the job of the SMG. That is the job of the machine gunner, SMGs then to be very light, the UZI is pretty heavy in its full size version, but the mini & mirco ones aren't very heavy.

You can't really jack up the pressure of the .45 that much due to the thiness of the case walls, thats why they invented the .45 super, which has thicker brass and therefore much higher pressures. The HK UMP is one subgun that is capable of firing both .45 and .45 super with no modifications.

George Hill · November 16, 2000, 11:42 AM

Correia is Correct.
Also - I recall the Uzi being available in .45ACP for awhile. I'm not sure if it was factory or a modification... but I think it was factory.
That being said The UMP-UMC are .45ACP.
Ingram made a .45 cal MAC Sumthin.
And there is of course UNCLE TOMMY... The Thompson Submachinegun. These are still available and classic.
The M3 "grease gun" was .45 and some of these are still available if you scour SHOTGUN NEWS.

Byron · November 17, 2000, 10:51 PM

Ingram is known for the MAC10/45, among others. Vector Arms makes .45ACP kits for UZIs, or you can buy their gun set up for .45 for $100 extra compared to the regular 9mm.

Another .45ACP subgun was the Reising; lots of transferables still around.

Among the guns that get classed as submachine guns, but don't fit the pistol-caliber definition is the Ruger AC556.

shooter 90 · December 14, 2000, 10:19 PM

I think I have one of the biggest cal. sub guns made.. the H$K 51.. a .308 with a 9 in barrel in full auto,,,talk about muzzle blast,,, shooter90

Johnny Guest · December 22, 2000, 11:55 AM

Agreed with Correia to a limited extent:

. . . the inability to hit stuff at longer ranges with a subgun isn't really a function of the size of the weapon, more of the amount of drop of the bullets at those ranges . . .

But I really think it is more a function of the fact that most subguns operate from an open bolt. The bolt mass slamming forward is not conducive to pinpoint accuracy. Given a closed bolt, it is a different matter: With a little practice on semi, you can do some amazing stuff with am MP-5. Hits on a silhouette target at 100 yards are easily made, and good results at 200 are possible.

Actually, even with an open bolt, like a Thompson or Uzi, if you can arrange a rest, three to five hits out of ten shots at 200 are possible with practice. Hit probability shooting in this manner is much higher than just flinging bursts of half-aimed full auto fire downrange.

As to the curved trajectory, I doubt that the trajectory curve of a .45 ACP at 200 is much greater than that of a .45-70 at 400. Sorry, I don't have the figures available to prove my point. But I believe it has more to do with the precision of the sights and willingness of the shooter to practice the task, than of the inherent accuracy of the cartridge, or the arc of the trajectory. Just look at what the artillerymen can do with howitzers, given proper aiming points and the math. I think it was Elmer Keith who pointed out that the relationship of bore diameter to barrel length, artillery piece to a handgun, is rather similar. The difference is the precision of the "mount" and the "emplacement."

Shooter 90--Full agreement as to the muzzle blast of the HK-51, but--no disrespect here-- it is not a submachine gun, any more than is a 1919 Browning belt-fed with the barrel lopped to under a foot in length. It is just a short barreled machine gun, full rifle caliber and all.

Merry Christmas & Happy Holidays to all - - -
Johnny

Correia · December 23, 2000, 12:56 PM

Good point Johnny.

Come to think of it I have seen some very impressive 150+ yard shooting with regular pistols, so I guess that bullet drop is something that can be controlled by an experienced operator.

And on the 45-70, wow. I have a friend who uses and 1886 Roth-Styer conversion to hunt everything from rabbits to deer. He is used to the rainbow like trajectory.

I will say that for the "average" shooter, a rifle is much easier to use at extended ranges than a subgun. And on the open bolt, not that I've ever used one myself, I understand that you can get pretty darn good with practice.

Apparently some folks shoot skeet with a BAR.

Apeach · January 7, 2001, 09:30 PM

SWEET JESUS! Is that stuff at the Tromix site legal? And if it is, how come not many people use it? That stuff would be devastating in the hands of a counter terrorist operative. Although they oughta put a muzzle brake on those. It'd help out a lot with the recoil.

December 14, 2000, 10:19 PM	#12
shooter 90 Junior Member Join Date: February 26, 2000 Posts: 9	sub guns,, I think I have one of the biggest cal. sub guns made.. the H$K 51.. a .308 with a 9 in barrel in full auto,,,talk about muzzle blast,,, shooter90

December 22, 2000, 11:55 AM	#13
Johnny Guest Moderator in Memoriam Join Date: August 28, 1999 Location: North Texas Posts: 4,123	Long Range Subgun Use; Definitions Agreed with Correia to a limited extent: . . . the inability to hit stuff at longer ranges with a subgun isn't really a function of the size of the weapon, more of the amount of drop of the bullets at those ranges . . . But I really think it is more a function of the fact that most subguns operate from an open bolt. The bolt mass slamming forward is not conducive to pinpoint accuracy. Given a closed bolt, it is a different matter: With a little practice on semi, you can do some amazing stuff with am MP-5. Hits on a silhouette target at 100 yards are easily made, and good results at 200 are possible. Actually, even with an open bolt, like a Thompson or Uzi, if you can arrange a rest, three to five hits out of ten shots at 200 are possible with practice. Hit probability shooting in this manner is much higher than just flinging bursts of half-aimed full auto fire downrange. As to the curved trajectory, I doubt that the trajectory curve of a .45 ACP at 200 is much greater than that of a .45-70 at 400. Sorry, I don't have the figures available to prove my point. But I believe it has more to do with the precision of the sights and willingness of the shooter to practice the task, than of the inherent accuracy of the cartridge, or the arc of the trajectory. Just look at what the artillerymen can do with howitzers, given proper aiming points and the math. I think it was Elmer Keith who pointed out that the relationship of bore diameter to barrel length, artillery piece to a handgun, is rather similar. The difference is the precision of the "mount" and the "emplacement." Shooter 90--Full agreement as to the muzzle blast of the HK-51, but--no disrespect here-- it is not a submachine gun, any more than is a 1919 Browning belt-fed with the barrel lopped to under a foot in length. It is just a short barreled machine gun, full rifle caliber and all. Merry Christmas & Happy Holidays to all - - - Johnny

January 7, 2001, 09:30 PM	#15
Apeach Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2001 Location: The 'burbs of chicago Posts: 167	Tromix stuff SWEET JESUS! Is that stuff at the Tromix site legal? And if it is, how come not many people use it? That stuff would be devastating in the hands of a counter terrorist operative. Although they oughta put a muzzle brake on those. It'd help out a lot with the recoil.

November 12, 2000, 02:40 PM	#1
Jamie Young Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2000 Location: SE/PA Posts: 4,834	Is it possible to have a Sub-Machine gun like an Uzi in something larger than .45acp? Or does it become an Assualt Rifle once you get into Larger Calibers.

November 12, 2000, 02:52 PM	#2
Art Eatman Staff in Memoriam Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Terlingua, TX; Thomasville, GA Posts: 24,798	I haven't been by "Full Auto" to see if you asked, there. Anyhow, "sub-machine gun" is a class of full-auto critter which uses pistol cartridges. SFAIK, .45ACP is as big as any of them get. Remember, "caliber" refers to bullet size, not overall cartridge size. Anybody else chimes in, I'll move it to FullAuto... Art

November 12, 2000, 02:55 PM	#3
Jamie Young Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2000 Location: SE/PA Posts: 4,834	Yeah I didn't think of that. When is TFL getting a Chatroom Art? [This message has been edited by SodaPop (edited November 12, 2000).]

November 13, 2000, 12:46 AM	#4
Art Eatman Staff in Memoriam Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Terlingua, TX; Thomasville, GA Posts: 24,798	I'll tell you waht I told a fella wondering about 1930s sub-guns: Ezell's "Small Arms of the World" is a good reference. I'm gonna move this to Full Auto. As to Chat Room, I'd say we're about as busy moderating this joint as we can stand! Regards, Art

November 15, 2000, 12:20 PM	#5
Benjamin Senior Member Join Date: December 27, 1999 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 358	Well, there are a number of heavily chopped firearms which fall somewhere between a carbine and a subgun... Examples include: Krinkov (8" ak-74 w/folder) Some early AR variants had a 10" or 12" barrel DSA makes a 13" barreled FAL, and I believe that they offered it with a folder Did I miss (m)any?

November 15, 2000, 12:47 PM	#6
Correia Senior Member Join Date: December 3, 1998 Location: SLC Utah Posts: 3,740	Art is right, the nomeculture of "subgun" refers to pistol cartridges, its not neccisarly a larger cartridge that makes it a rifle, it is the fact it fires rifle cartridges. Then there are pistols that shoot rifle bullets so it can all become very confusing. There are lots of short barreled rifles, the Germans seem to be big on that, but if you want a really BIG subgun, look at the sledgehammers at www.tromix.com .44 mag, .50 AE, .440 Corbon. Wow. I figure that technically they are subguns.

November 15, 2000, 07:43 PM	#7
Jamie Young Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2000 Location: SE/PA Posts: 4,834	<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Correia: Art is right, the nomeculture of "subgun" refers to pistol cartridges, its not neccisarly a larger cartridge that makes it a rifle, it is the fact it fires rifle cartridges. Then there are pistols that shoot rifle bullets so it can all become very confusing. There are lots of short barreled rifles, the Germans seem to be big on that, but if you want a really BIG subgun, look at the sledgehammers at www.tromix.com .44 mag, .50 AE, .440 Corbon. Wow. I figure that technically they are subguns.[/quote] I'm really thinking about UZI's when I think of Sub Guns. I've seen some Uzi's with really long barrels Mostly Israeli Airport Security. I am just wondering if you can actually take something like that to a range and hit anything at 100yds with them? I've never fired an Uzi but I would figure that they would have to have a pretty heavy barrel for high rates of fire? Plus they should be able to jack up the pressure on something like a .45acp right?

November 16, 2000, 12:12 AM	#8
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,859	Concur. SMGs by definition are full auto capable weapons firing a pistol caliber cartridge. Modernly, we have Assault Rifles or carbine versions of them which are the approximate size of WW II SMGs. A good example is the Soviet Krinkov or the US M4 carbine. However, these still fire intermediate size rifle cartridge and while they may be pressed into SMG roles, are not in the strict sense SMGs.

November 16, 2000, 10:26 AM	#9
Correia Senior Member Join Date: December 3, 1998 Location: SLC Utah Posts: 3,740	SodaPop, the inability to hit stuff at longer ranges with a subgun isn't really a function of the size of the weapon, more of the amount of drop of the bullets at those ranges. And a heavier barrel holds up better to sustained fire, but in reality sustained fire isn't really the job of the SMG. That is the job of the machine gunner, SMGs then to be very light, the UZI is pretty heavy in its full size version, but the mini & mirco ones aren't very heavy. You can't really jack up the pressure of the .45 that much due to the thiness of the case walls, thats why they invented the .45 super, which has thicker brass and therefore much higher pressures. The HK UMP is one subgun that is capable of firing both .45 and .45 super with no modifications.

November 16, 2000, 11:42 AM	#10
George Hill Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 14, 1998 Location: North Carolina Posts: 11,546	Correia is Correct. Also - I recall the Uzi being available in .45ACP for awhile. I'm not sure if it was factory or a modification... but I think it was factory. That being said The UMP-UMC are .45ACP. Ingram made a .45 cal MAC Sumthin. And there is of course UNCLE TOMMY... The Thompson Submachinegun. These are still available and classic. The M3 "grease gun" was .45 and some of these are still available if you scour SHOTGUN NEWS.

November 17, 2000, 10:51 PM	#11
Byron Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 1999 Location: Sandia Park, NM Posts: 270	Ingram is known for the MAC10/45, among others. Vector Arms makes .45ACP kits for UZIs, or you can buy their gun set up for .45 for $100 extra compared to the regular 9mm. Another .45ACP subgun was the Reising; lots of transferables still around. Among the guns that get classed as submachine guns, but don't fit the pistol-caliber definition is the Ruger AC556.

December 23, 2000, 12:56 PM	#14
Correia Senior Member Join Date: December 3, 1998 Location: SLC Utah Posts: 3,740	Good point Johnny. Come to think of it I have seen some very impressive 150+ yard shooting with regular pistols, so I guess that bullet drop is something that can be controlled by an experienced operator. And on the 45-70, wow. I have a friend who uses and 1886 Roth-Styer conversion to hunt everything from rabbits to deer. He is used to the rainbow like trajectory. I will say that for the "average" shooter, a rifle is much easier to use at extended ranges than a subgun. And on the open bolt, not that I've ever used one myself, I understand that you can get pretty darn good with practice. Apparently some folks shoot skeet with a BAR.