October 25, 2013, 05:37 PM | #1 |
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Here is the link: http://foxnewsinsider.com/2013/10/20...imself-firearm
I believe this guy was on GunTalk recently. We have debated this before but I believe that those workplaces that prohibit carry and then do little or nothing to mitigate crime have created an immoral policy that one may honestly disobey and be silent about doing so. Further, even though the employer may fire said employee, the fact that the employee disobeyed the company policy is not morally wrong.
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October 26, 2013, 02:32 AM | #2 |
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Since when does morality have anything to do with it? We are not talking about "laws" (that at least in theory are based on notions of fairness or morality), but work place rules that, unless they result in a discrimination prohibited by law, are perfectly valid no matter how ill-advised. The employer has a rule, the employee violated it, and, without more, that's that. An employer can fire an at-will employee for a good reason or for no reason at all; he is prohibited from termination only for reasons prohibited by law.
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October 26, 2013, 10:27 AM | #3 | |
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So what? An employer's immoral policy is still the employer's policy, and employees violate their company's policies at risk of being penalized or terminated. And, since most companies that have such policies also require employees to sign an acknowledgement that they have read and understood the policies, IMHO it's not exactly accurate to say that one may "honestly" disobey the policy. In fact, it means the employee lied -- he/she agreed to follow the policy, and then went back on his/her word. Maybe I'm old fashioned, but I quit one job for just that reason a decade ago. I could have cheated, signed the policy, and carried a pocket pistol on the job all day with nobody being the wiser. But my integrity is still worth something (at least to me). |
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October 26, 2013, 10:44 AM | #4 |
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I guess that's it Aguila Blanca, but where we might disagree is that it is "cheating" or is an "integrity" issue. Since the policy is immoral it is not wrong to disobey it. So, I say you can disobey the rule and keep your integrity as well. I may be fired but I am not dishonest. My only point. This has been argued on here before so this news story just IMHO makes my point.
I liken this to hiding Jews in WWII. People lied to the Nazi's about it but they were not wrong to do so. Same for undercover police. They are not telling the truth but doing good by not telling the truth.
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October 26, 2013, 11:36 AM | #5 | |||
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Aguila Blanca wrote:
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Tennessee Gentleman wrote: Quote:
The only way your integrity remains intact is either not accept the Job or, if already employed, either follow the rules, or resign. You cannot have it both ways and keep the moral high ground. Quote:
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October 26, 2013, 12:11 PM | #6 | |
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October 26, 2013, 12:20 PM | #7 | ||
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I think Mr. Cothran in this article had plenty of integrity. His company did not. Quote:
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October 26, 2013, 12:29 PM | #8 | |
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It's not so black and white and therefore the definition you post is incomplete. If the law changes tomorrow and you are required to turn in your guns. Will you do it? Have you lost your integrity if you do not?
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October 26, 2013, 02:15 PM | #9 |
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At the store I work at, I signed a statement that I had read and understood the company policy. I did not sign that I agreed to abide by it.
The policy states quite clearly that weapons, including but not limited to guns and knives are forbidden in the workplace. The problem arises that we are required to have at least a box-knife (of the same kind that brought down the aircraft of 9/11) on our person, in order to do our jobs. The company even provides them to new hires. Since the company routinely ignores its own policies... |
October 26, 2013, 02:26 PM | #10 | |
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Immoral policy or not, we are not generally forced or coerced into working for a particular company. We have choices. The last time I checked, nobody is herding gun owners into camps, dehumanizing us, or killing us. A more fruitful line of discussion would be, "how do we convince employers to accept employee carry?"
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October 26, 2013, 03:14 PM | #11 | |
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>One thing I suspect with the majority of business owners that create "gun free" zones is they are unaware of the difference between anyone carrying a weapon and lawful concealed carry. >Is there any kind of program that could be created to qualify employee's to carry that would be widely accepted by companies outside of the states CHL requirement? FWIW: how many 'other' company policy rules does anyone violate, like gratuitous web surfing for personal use? Or how about that nice Benchmade folder clipped in your pocket? IMO there are state and federal laws that should be followed that might be debated immoral to disobey, but not private "rules" that are blindly dangerous like gun free zones.
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October 26, 2013, 03:36 PM | #12 | |
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October 26, 2013, 04:35 PM | #13 | ||
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What it really boils down to IMHO is do you value your life or your job? Integrity or honesty is not a part of the decision to carry when the company has an immoral policy. And what makes it immoral? If you demand disarmament you must insure it. Otherwise, the rule is immoral. Just my thought.
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October 26, 2013, 05:00 PM | #14 | |
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I value my life and I value my integrity. In my case, I started a job on a Monday morning. At a briefing for new hires (there were three or four of us that day) they handed out copies of the company's personnel manual, told us to take it home and read it, and to sign the acknowledgement page and hand it in the next day. naturally, there was a no firearms on company premises clause. Since they wanted me to work the closing shift, which would have meant leaving the premises at 11:00 p.m. and walking through a deserted parking lot in a seedy part of town to get to my car, I was unhappy. I spoke to the branch manager, who agreed to ask corporate if I could bring in a handgun and keep it in my locker during my shift. The answer came back on Wednesday: No. On Thursday I handed in my resignation, stating why, and Friday was my last day. I needed that job. But I also need to be able to look myself in the eyes in the mirror and respect the person I see. If an employer wants to establish policies that I consider immoral, that's their karma. For me to lie by agreeing (in writing) to abide by their policies, and then NOT do so ... that's my karma. Two wrongs don't make a right. |
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October 26, 2013, 05:09 PM | #15 |
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Sorry to hear that, but again your call. I think you could and should have carried, been silent and been fine. Of course had you not carried, been robbed and murdered the company might have paid a small something to your family and you would be gone. The job you can replace, your life you cannot.
These companies will never allow us to carry. Too much risk for them and no upside either. Somebody said once: You have no obligation to tell the truth to someone who has no right to know.
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October 26, 2013, 05:38 PM | #16 | |
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October 26, 2013, 05:42 PM | #17 | ||
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October 26, 2013, 08:39 PM | #18 |
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It's unlikely a company would have an employee arrested for criminal trespass if they found him/her carrying in violation of corporate policy, but it's possible. Much more likely is that they'll simply fire the individual. Al's slant on the document he signed won't matter. Regardless of whether or not he agreed to follow the policy, I'm sure the policy said that the consequence of not following it could be termination.
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October 26, 2013, 08:52 PM | #19 |
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It would be criminal trespass to carry a gun where I work because all the doors are properly posted with the proper sized black letters, and all that. (so I carry a knife instead -- the knife is more useful day-to-day anyway) The company policy book does not carry weight of law (your state might be different.)
The company policy book also says no guns in the parking lot, but state law specifically allows it; that policy is not enforceable.
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October 26, 2013, 08:58 PM | #20 | |
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Of course, the only way they SHOULD find out you have a gun is if what happened in the OP happens to you.
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October 26, 2013, 09:39 PM | #21 | |
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However, employers are motivated by a fear of liability (which was hugely and intentionally overstated by gun-control groups in the late 1980's and early 1990's), and I don't know if we can fairly call no-guns policies "immoral."
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October 26, 2013, 09:46 PM | #22 | |
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October 26, 2013, 09:58 PM | #23 |
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Idaho is a right-to-work State. That being said, policy or no policy, I can be terminated for any reason or no reason.
Denial of unemployment benefits is another bailiwick entirely and not within the scope of this thread. |
October 27, 2013, 02:35 PM | #24 | ||
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If a company denies you the ability to protect yourself, they have a moral responsibility to provide that protection. Outside of very rare situations, they do not have a legal responsibility to protect you, and do not. Quote:
No job is worth your life.
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October 27, 2013, 03:09 PM | #25 | |
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Last edited by manta49; October 27, 2013 at 03:22 PM. |
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