What Is The Smallest Caliber ADEQUATE For Deer?

[tyrajam]

Come on guys, lay off. Pointing out the size difference of deer in different regions and the importance of bullet construction is certainly part of a useful discussion, but all of the "This was already discussed!" hysteria is ridiculous. Yes, I'm tired of the "Is a 223 enough for deer?" threads, but this was a simple poll of what individuals from all over the country feel is adequate, and so far there have been over 75 responses. I think its interesting that so many chose the .22, and that the majority chose the 6mm. If you don't find it interesting, then stop making this thread longer with whining.

But I would like to see a hundred more responses on this poll. If you think its a waste of time, move on.

[tyrajam]

P.S.--What the heck is a .14 caliber?????

[kymasabe]

I might consider a .223 as the smallest adequate caliber if it was listed in your poll. I won't vote for .22 for fear someone will think I'm supporting the use of .22LR for deer hunting. Of your calibers listed, I wouldn't go any less than .243 for deer hunting.
Now, for me personally, I believe in taking game ethically and dispatching as quickly as possible. That being said, I don't deer hunt with anything less than a .30 cal round.
My deer hunting experience has always been some .30/30, mostly .30-06, some .308, and tried Brit. .303. My next deer hunt I'll probably try 7.62x54R.
If you're a brush, woods, hedgerows hunter like me, you can't beat the .30/30 lever action rifle for whitetail. Light, responsive, you can carry it all day, accurate. .223 should be left to coyote and prarie dogs.

[taylorce1]

P.S.--What the heck is a .14 caliber?????

A .14 caliber is a .144 caliber like most pellet rifles. There are a few custom .14 caliber cartridges out there most are chambered in firearms like T/C Contender and Encores especially pistols. I think the heaviest custom bullets made still weigh less than 20 grains.

http://www.saubier.com/smallcaliber/russlucas.html

[HiBC]

In Co,last time I looked,70 gr minimum,over 22,and 1000 ft lbs @100 yds.

Recently read an article on the old Rem Mod 25 pumps.Major point of the article was back then,a25-20 and 32-20 were considered adequate deer cartridges.
In Co,a muzzleloader 40 cal round ball is deer legal,so is a .50 cal rd ball elk legal.
Some folks use .357 handguns,and .45acp on up



But I just don't understand the idea of tilting the scales toward marginal performance.The .250 savage,the .243.the 30-30,even calibers like a 6x47 or 6 TCU ,the 7.62x39 all seem mild enough to shoot .I'd actually like to build a Mini-mauser or tiny Sako in 25 or 6.5 Benchrest or ppc.It would be a nice deer rifle. I don't understand handicapping a beginner with something smaller.I guess I don't understand the "Why" I think I could most of the time get a clean kill on an elk with a .22 magnum if I was 40 yds away and had time to wait out a shot. but it doesn't seem like a good idea.I would feel fine with a Ruger #3 single shot in 30-40 Krag,and happy with a 7-08.

Can somebody help me understand the interest in using the very small calibers?

[Dangerwing]

Orriginally posted by Kmoffitt:
Oh, so we should automatically disqualify his thread because it is redundant? You could whittle down new threads on the FL to no more than 1 or 2 per day if that is your standard here.

+1 to that! I'm not privy to the stats, but I would imagine that there is constantly new members joining, old members leaving, new idea's to be added. I supose one could search and find two year old threads, but then what happens? You get threads that are 10 pages long with the OP being in 2005 and the most recent post being in 2009. The point of a thread is to discuss. Its hard to have a discussion over a period of years when several of the people involved in the discussion have moved on.

Orriginally posted by Tryajam
If you think its a waste of time, move on.

Amen! If you think this is a worn out topic then don't read it or post in it. I personally would have never thought to search for this topic, but I saw it while browsing and thought "Hey, that might be interesting" so here I am. If you saw it and thought "GAH! That again! That topic has been beat to death!" then just ignore it and go on about your business. There is no rule that you have to read every thread.

To stay on topic - I picked 6mm/243. The first deer I ever shot was with a 6mm Rem. It was standing still, quartering away at almost exactly 100 yards. Perfect shot right? It ran almost a quarter mile through a swamp. I figured I must have made a poor shot. Nope, when I went to field dress it, I found that I had punctured both lungs, grazed the heart, and broke one of the front shoulders. Good shot placement is important, but you still need to do enough damage to cause a quick kill.

[2fewdaysafield]

Smallest adequate cartridge is the one you are the best with.

A buddy of mine swears by a .22 wmr to the head. He's a GREAT! shot and has never had a problem, that I know of.

For me, a .243 if I'm shooting from a stand. .270 if I'm walking. But I'm not the world's best shot from offhand.

Really depends on your ability to PLACE your shot.

[sureshots]

NC says centerfire cart. so thats what I use.

[taylorce1]

HiBC you are close but not quite right on the Colorado legal firearm regulations. 70 grain bullets only apply to deer, pronghorn and bear, you need a 85 grain or heavier for moose and elk and the minimum caliber is 6mm. Here you go these are from the 2008 brochure:

1. CENTERFIRE RIFLES
a. Must be min. .24 caliber (6 mm).
b. Must have min. a 16-inch barrel and be at least 26 inches long.
c. If semiautomatic, they can hold max. of 6 rounds in the magazine and
chamber combined.
d. Must use expanding bullets that weigh min. 70 grains for deer, pronghorn
and bear, 85 grains for elk and moose, and have an impact energy (at
100 yds.) of 1,000-ft. pounds as rated by manufacturer.
e. It is illegal to hunt game birds, small game mammals or furbearers with
a centerfire rifle larger than .23 caliber during regular rifle deer and elk seasons W of I-25, without an unfilled deer or elk license for the season. A
small game license is required.

Threw ML in because you mentioned it, no fancy powders, sabot rounds, optics, or electronic ignition allowed.

3. MUZZLELOADING RIFLES & SMOOTHBORE MUSKETS
a. In-line muzzleloaders are legal.
b. Must be single-barrel that fires a single round-ball or conical projectile
the length of which does not exceed twice the diameter.
c. To hunt deer, pronghorn or bear, they must be min. of .40 caliber.
d. To hunt elk or moose, they must be min. of .50 caliber.
e. From .40 caliber to .50 caliber, bullets must weigh min. 170 grains.
f. If greater than .50 caliber, bullets must weigh min. 210 grains.
g. Shotshell primers are legal.
h. Pelletized powder systems prohibited in muzzleloading seasons.
i. Cannot be loaded from the breech in muzzleloading seasons.
j. Only open or iron sights allowed in muzzleloading seasons. Fiber optics
and fluorescent paint incorporated into or on open or iron sights are legal.
Scopes or any sighting device using artificial light, batteries and electronic
gear are prohibited during muzzleloading seasons.
k. Sabots are prohibited in muzzleloading seasons. Cloth patches are
not sabots.
l. Smokeless powder prohibited in muzzleloading seasons. Black
powder and black powder substitutes are legal.
m. Only legal muzzleloaders allowed in muzzleloading seasons.
n. NEW FOR 2008: Electronic or battery-powered devices cannot
be incorporated into or attached to muzzleloader during muzzleloading
seasons.

7. HANDGUNS
a. Barrel must be min. 4 inches long.
b. Must use a min. .24-caliber (6 mm) diameter expanding bullet.
c. Shoulder stocks or attachments prohibited.
d. Must use a cartridge or load that produces min. energy of 550-ft. lbs. at
50 yds. as rated by manufacturer.

.357 Mag and .45 ACP don't make legal requirements for hunting in CO, .41 Mag is the smallest standard pistol cartridge that makes the ft-lb requirements. Most pistols don't make the minimum barrel length requierment either.

[Playboypenguin]

What Is The Smallest Caliber ADEQUATE For Deer?

This is where I have to take a stand. I do not believe deer should be allowed to be armed under any circumstances.

[ryalred]

I posted the thread because I was curious what most people on this forum thought. Because there had been so many threads about the adequacy of the .223 I was interested in finding out what most people here thought was the minimum caliber for deer hunting. I was personally surprised that more people didn't pick the .30 caliber, although I personally picked the 6mm/243. Thanks to all who participated and will participate in this poll.

[uncyboo]

I don't mean what do you like to hunt with, but honestly, which to you believe is the smallest caliber a decent hunter/shot could use for whitetail deer?

I based my vote off of this question.

[ken22250]

ive killed deer with cartridges of all shapes and sizes, from the .22 hornet (a 113 yard head shot) to the .460 WbyMag, neither would be considered ideal, and i wouldnt suggest anything smaller than .22 and larger than .323 (8mm), or .338, anything larger than .30 is really overkill (with exceptions being the old medium bore cartridges of lever actions), i like .27, i think the .270 winchester on of the best deer cartridges ever made, allong w/ the 6.5-06, ive had my best luck with the .30-06, but ive hunted more with an 30-06 more than anything else, .22 should be minimum, and a .243/6mm would be better.
ken

[gb_in_ga]

Working assumptions:

> Average hunter with average marksmanship skills. Meaning, we aren't talking about head/neck shots, but "boiler room" heart/lung only.
> Average sized whitetail deer. Not "Deer-zillas" that some places have. Not the "Doggie-Deer" like others have.
> Average ranges. 200-ish yards max.

Honestly, you could do just fine with a .30-30 under those assumptions. But, that wasn't what the OP was looking for. As a minimum, I'd not feel well going under 6mm/.243. Granted, a .243 will reach out quite a bit further than 200 yards, but that really isn't why I stop there. I stop there because I'm looking at the size of the entrance and exit holes and their relationship with leaving a good blood trail to track. If you go much smaller and lighter than .243/6mm then you are really limiting your chances with regards to tracking a deer that bolts when it is hit. And I'm not all that thrilled with what I've seen along that line with .243s, for that matter.

I've yet to be convinced that something in the .223 class will punch all the way through and leave a good enough exit wound to leave a trackable blood trail. Maybe there have been advances in bullet construction, and maybe with the use of longer, heavier bullets you really can get a decent blood trail. I haven't seen that yet, therefore I'm not convinced. Then again, as soon as you allow .22 center fires as deer rounds then some yahoo will come along with a light, quick expanding varmint bullet and then what? No, thanks -- let's stick with "real" deer rounds.

I was personally surprised that more people didn't pick the .30 caliber, although I personally picked the 6mm/243.

I didn't go with .30 caliber because I KNOW that there are rounds in the .270 and 7mm class are really good deer calibers. No doubt about it. How could you count out .270 Win, one of the best deer rounds ever? For that matter, I've seen where 7mm Rem Mag has been way overkill on smaller Tx Hill Country deer. My comfort zone for bullet calibers would be .270 - 8mm. Much smaller than .270 and you are talking about a finesse tool for use by the most experienced hunters, and much bigger than 8mm (other than in lower velocity ""brush busters") is overkill on deer sized game.

[ZeroJunk]

I still don't see the downside to using a bigger cartridge ifyou can stand to shoot it. The lost meat argument is overblown. If you shoot them with most anything through the shoulders it's going to make a mess, but the shoulders on a deer don't have enough meat on them fit to eat to worry about. It's hard to get around the fact that you will find more shot deer and cause them less suffering with something like a 270 Win, 280 Rem, 30/06 and their close relatives which are hard to beat as deer cartridges.

[gb_in_ga]

The lost meat argument is overblown.

I've seen it in person in the Tx Hill Country. My father was doing the shooting, with a 7mm Rem Mag, using his Nosler Partition handloads that he developed for Mule Deer/Elk. He hit a buck in the front shoulder quartering back to and exiting the opposite ham. It shredded that shoulder, the backstrap, and BOTH hams. There wasn't enough edible meat left to bother with.

[ZeroJunk]

I've seen it in person in the Tx Hill Country. My father was doing the shooting, with a 7mm Rem Mag, using his Nosler Partition handloads that he developed for Mule Deer/Elk. He hit a buck in the front shoulder quartering back to and exiting the opposite ham. It shredded that shoulder, the backstrap, and BOTH hams. There wasn't enough edible meat left to bother with.

I don't doubt that. A 7 Mag is pretty stout regardless of the bullet. My hunting partner used one for years and I've helped him clean the mess many times. But, that shot is an exception that you can take or not depending on your circumstance. Here you can shoot does till you are sick of it if you want the meat and would probably take that shot only on a trophy, and if he was a trophy at that angle the 7 mag was a good choice regardless of the lost meat.

[gb_in_ga]

and if he was a trophy at that angle the 7 mag was a good choice regardless of the lost meat.

The sad thing about it was that it just wasn't all that impressive of a buck, just your average run-of-the-mill smallish Hill Country buck. Certainly not a "trophy" buck. I take it that his brain was in "disconnect" mode, that he forgot just which rifle he was carrying and what sort of shot he was taking with it. Oh, well, at least the deer didn't suffer. Dad, however, sure was chapped that he had to waste a tag on a deer that wasn't fit to eat.

[DoctorXring]

.

A 223 or a 22-250 is "enough gun" for a whitetail with 3
caveats. But these also apply to other calibers. I've used
both in culling situations and have killed many whitetail
with them.

1. Use a bullet suitable for the task. Nosler partition, Barnes
TSX, or Trophy Bonded Bear Claw.

2. Stay within optimum impact velocity range. 2400 fps for
this calilber.
That would be 150 yards for a 223 and 250 yards for a 22-250.

3. Hit the vitals


My caliber of preference though for all whitetail situations would
be the 260 Remington, 6.5x55, or the 257 Roberts.

dxr

.

[Crankylove]

For a whitetail, up close (75 yds or less), standing still, I would trust my .22 Hornet for a head shot, other wise a .223 would be as small as I would go.

[HiBC]

I do not blame the cartridge,but I ,too have seen some incredible destruction delivered by a 7 mag.I have since chosen more moderate cartridges.I mean moderate from the point of not pushing exteremes,but using what has worked for a long time.A 7x57 will kill the same class of game as a 7 mag will,just not as far away.You can eat closer to the wound channel.
While I would't push the range,for an inexpensive utility volksrifle,an SKS will make venison.
Robert Ruark took a 220 Swift to Africa.Then he wrote "Use enough Gun"

[hogdogs]

error
Brent

[j.chappell]

The lost meat argument is overblown.

Do you hunt antlers only? I hunt for both sport and meat. I get plenty of meat from the front half of the deer. To say that.....

the shoulders on a deer don't have enough meat on them fit to eat to worry about.

is ridiculous. I think anyone who thinks in this way is wasteful and does not appreciate the deer for what it is and what it offers.

On caliber selection I feel comfortable using 22 centerfire and up. I know how to shoot and I load bullets for the job at hand.

I have never lost a deer, nor have they suffered a cruel death do to my choice of caliber or shot placement.

We as hunters owe it to the game to be accurate marksmen, to take ethical shots with appropriate rifles and ammunition meant for the purpose.

Far too many "hunters" use larger more powerful cartridges to make up for poor marksmanship and shot selection.

J.

[fxdrider]

I voted for .22 because that's what a .223 is. I don't believe the .22 rimfire cartridges are adequate, but I believe a .223 Remington in the hands of a skilled marksman will get the job done. However, I'll have to hunt out of my state to test that theory, as Virginia's minimum for deer is 23 caliber. Nice way of keeping the AR's out of the field I guess.

[ZeroJunk]

is ridiculous. I think anyone who thinks in this way is wasteful and does not appreciate the deer for what it is and what it offers

You are free to think what you want. I've cleaned six of them in the last two weeks and when you get past all the white sinew, tendons, and bone their is just not much on a deer shoulder. You can also make a neck roast, cook the ribs, kidneys, liver, gonads, heart. The heart is excellent sauteed BTW.

When I have to put seven strands of electric fence around my garden and they kill my azaleas I can tell you what they offer me, aggravation.

Let me add this. My buddy killed 35 this year and he is not even a hunter, he is a farmer. He had an excellent 12 pointer in the edge of his field and didn't even shoot him. I asked him why and he said that he wasn't eating his beans.
I can shoot them in the head, shoot them in the heart, shoot them with a bow, shotgun, whatever. But, I think telling hunters out there reading this forum that they need to be framming at them with a 223 is just bad advice. They all think they are excellent marksman and only take ethical shots, but that is more in forums than in the field.