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June 24, 2014, 03:04 PM | #1 |
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Us Springfield Armory M1903 help
Got this rifle in a trade and cant find the answers to my questions anywhere on google.
sorry if this is the wrong cat just got a few questions. Rifle is a US Springfield Armory 1903 ser # 799,023 what ive learned is its from 1918 now Question 1: Is how do i know if the barrel is original? The stamp on barrel says SA 11-17 A and has the bursting bomb mark. Question 2: The stock is not original it is an old wooden stock looks to be a sport style. My question is is there any place i can by an 1918 stock for it to bring it back to as original as possible looking? And would this increase any value? As of now i plan to keep it. It fires and functions great. (Yes i know the low numbers/high numbers debate) but id like to make it as original looking as possible while still using it. But would like to keep the value up as much as possible incase i decide to sell. Thanks in advance for any help! |
June 24, 2014, 03:14 PM | #2 |
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I'd say a Nov 1917 barrel on a 1918 action is likely original.
A repro military stock is $220 from Brownells, NOT including hardware. You might could find one cheaper but I doubt it would add enough to the value to pay for itself. Now if you came across a real military takeoff at a low price, you might come out ahead. But that will be tough. |
June 24, 2014, 03:16 PM | #3 |
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Here's a shot worth taking- plug your rifle's SN into here- http://oldguns.net/sn_php/milmods.htm Now, what that won't tell you is- if your rifle was re-arsenalled with a period specific barrel. It'll just get you a wee bit closer to determining if it's possible that the barrel and receiver left it's place of manufacture together.
I have a Eddystone 1917 with a receiver date of 4/18, and a barrel date of 3/18. I guess it's possible they were original to each other, however, with all of the other Reington parts on it- I find that a little less likely that they were original to each other. Yes, correct stocks are out there, but being able to determine which one is specifically dated to 1917 is impossible (I'm 99% sure). You can get one that is correct, but may have been made as late as 1931 with no way to tell the difference. Edit: I appologize, I thought they would narrow it down to production month, guess not.
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June 24, 2014, 05:29 PM | #4 |
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Thanks for the replies and i thought as well that if the barrel was made in late 1917 and the receiver in 1918 itd be likely they are original match although i still cant seem to find anywhere that has info on if this were true or not. Also when researching the serial number all i can find ia the year 1918 nothing more specific such as month to give be a better idea if it were possibly a match to the barrel.
Now since i basically got this rifle for free any value is money in the bank if i ever decide to sell but i think for now i am going to clean it up re blue it and refinish the stock unless i can find one of the original style |
June 24, 2014, 05:33 PM | #5 |
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Heres a pic of it npw i will try to get better pics up later
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June 24, 2014, 05:38 PM | #6 | |
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Looking at the Serial Number you posted, this applies:
Quote:
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June 24, 2014, 05:52 PM | #7 |
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Kraigwy yes as in my original post i am aware of this. And uave fired with no issues and am not worried about it. And i do not shoot at any cmp or nra matches.
Just trying to figure out if the barrel is correct to the receiver. thanks |
June 24, 2014, 06:25 PM | #8 |
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according to VIshooters barrel date/serial number list, the serial number in question should have a 3-18 dated barrel, sorry fellow, but it's a replacement by someone looking to keep it looking original.
I have bought stocks on Ebay, probably your best bet although there is no dates on the stocks, just make sure that the stock has the proper cartouches and is the proper style. your rifle should have the straight style with grasping grooves.
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June 24, 2014, 06:30 PM | #9 |
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Tahuana001
Thanks for the info much appreciated |
June 24, 2014, 08:13 PM | #10 |
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Barrel manufacture in that era was pretty much automated, and run on multiple machines simultaneously. So barrel production ran well ahead of rifle production, and it is common and correct for a barrel date to be earlier than the date of rifle production. Of course, U.S. rifle receivers were not (and are not) dated, while barrels were, so often both the date of manufacture of the receiver and the date of assembly of the rifle is simply a guess.
(The 800,000 serial number is also a guess. Springfield was little concerned with the kind of production control that is standard in all factories today for just about all products. For one thing, receivers were made and finished, then stored for indefinite periods until needed for assembly. When the cause of the brittleness problem was determined, they just guessed at when the change to double heat treatment was made.) Jim |
June 24, 2014, 09:37 PM | #11 |
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I saw one reference that Springfield started using pyrometers at SN 750001 to prevent "burned metal". So there were 50000 receivers with case hardened actions, but properly done. I do not know the primary source, all I know is what it says at http://www.vishooter.net/sa_serialization.txt
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June 25, 2014, 03:28 PM | #12 |
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The problem was that Springfield made and numbered receivers and stockpiled them until rifles were requested by the using services, at which point they set up to assemble rifles. That custom was carried over from the Krag and the Trapdoor because they never knew whether a given receiver would become a rifle or a carbine; it depended on the order received from the services through COFORD in Washington. That practice made it difficult to determine just when, and at what number, a given change was made. Most sources indicate that the 800,000 number was the "high end"; they knew the change had been made by that point, but not at which point before that. So is 799xxx OK? I don't know. Is 750001 OK? I don't know. And since the problem was itself random, any given number below 800,000 may be OK, or at least as OK as any SHT rifle.
It is worth noting that the process for heat treating didn't change for the '03. They did the same thing for the Krag, same steel, same process. But the Krag cartridge was lower pressure and ammunition was made under better control than in the WWI emergency. Note that Krags did let go. The attempt to issue a higher velocity round was aborted when rifles failed. Also worth noting is that for both rifles, the original finish, called oil blackening, was part of the heat treatment and quenching process. Krags and early 1903's often show the flaking and "white spots" typical of old oil blackening. When those rifles were returned to the Armory for refinish, the receivers were rust blued, since the oil blackening could not be redone without heating the receiver red hot. Jim |
June 25, 2014, 10:47 PM | #13 |
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I have heard of broken single locking lugs on a Krag.
What happens otherwise when one "lets go?" The safety lug is stout. The Norwegian Krag has it fitted to contact as a locking lug, but on the US Krag, the safety lug touching the receiver is a sign that the front lug is cracked. |
June 26, 2014, 10:54 AM | #14 | |
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Quote:
No there is no way to be certain that any barrel/receiver combo is the same as it was when it left Springfield Armory, but Occam's razor still applies. Based on the way SA made rifles at the time, a 1917 barrel fitted to a 1918 receiver is pretty normal, particularly for a rifle made early in the year. Since the 800,000 number was hit in mid February, a 1917 barrel would not be considered incorrect for a rifle made in January or early February 1918. As to the low serial number thing, I would probably shoot it, but handload down, using H4895 and Hodgedon's data: https://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/H4895%20...le%20Loads.pdf |
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June 26, 2014, 01:40 PM | #15 |
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I agree.
First, a late 1917 barrel on an early 1918 action does not seem odd to me. We are told that they could not keep track of heat treatments, so why should we think that barrels were matched up exactly? Second, it has been sporterized, so the very most the OP can do is to return it to "correct" appearance, it will never be original again. |
June 26, 2014, 02:34 PM | #16 |
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alrighty then, I retract my statement, I'm simply going off what's in the sight, I've also seen springfields where the barrels ran 3-4 months in either direction.
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June 26, 2014, 06:15 PM | #17 |
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Cracked locking lugs were the most common failure of Krags, but there were reports of receivers cracking. I think the reason there were no serious failures is because of the lower pressure and the rimmed cartridge, which gave almost full support to the case, so case failure and release of gas into the action was never a problem.
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June 26, 2014, 06:31 PM | #18 | |
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Reading recent threads and old literature on the subject, I have come to the conclusion that the only advantage of the rimless cartridge is that it is better suited to the Mauser box magazine. The rimmed case can be better supported in the chamber with only a small extractor cut, yet it offers plenty of purchase to that extractor. There is no doubt as to headspace control. Of course handloaders still have to take care with head to shouder dimensions to avoid case separation so there is still a place for the feeler gauge. |
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June 26, 2014, 07:01 PM | #19 | ||||
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Quote:
Does it really matter? Quote:
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June 26, 2014, 07:21 PM | #20 |
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"Of course handloaders still have to take care with head to shouder dimensions to avoid case separation so there is still a place for the feeler gauge."
I am not sure I understand, Jim. With a rimmed case, if headspace is correct, case separation is almost impossible. If the chamber is too large or the case sized to be too small, the case will simply expand to fill the chamber. That does not mean, as some say, that there is no such thing as excess headspace with a rimmed cartridge. If the bolt can move back too far under pressure, you can get case separation and if the case can protrude far enough from the chamber, it will burst and wreck the rifle. The old Lee rifle receivers actually flexed under extreme pressure; with the center lugs, that allowed the bolt to pull away from the chamber far enough to allow the case to burst and wreck the rifle. Jim |
June 26, 2014, 07:59 PM | #21 |
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Well, the headspace of a rimmed round is the thickness of the rim/depth of the rim recess in bolt or barrel. But shoulder setback would still matter.
I would expect, that if rimmed cartridges were more "modern" and common, that they would be treated like belted magnums; sized so that the case shoulder was located at the chamber shoulder. The late Remington Lees had front locking lugs. |
June 26, 2014, 08:36 PM | #22 |
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Headspace in a rimmed case is the same as for a rimless case - the distance from the stopping point of the case to the face of the breechblock.
The difference is that for a rimmed case, the stopping point is the face of the breech, where for a rimless case it is a point in the shoulder of the chamber. In a rimmed case, headspace is some defined distance greater than the rim thickness. For example, the .30-30 rim thickness spec is .062"-063"; the headspace spec is .063"-.070". Belted magnums really are rimmed cases. When H&H came up with the .375 H&H Magnum, they wanted to use a rimless case for easy feeding. But they found out that the tiny shoulder would not be enough for longitudinal case support against the firing pin. Without that support, misfires and inaccuracy (due to inconsistent primer ignition) would result.* So they built in what amounts to a new rim, the belt. Contrary to common belief, the belt does not add strength to the case; it is too far back to support the case walls. If the shoulder of a rimmed or belted case is set back during re-sizing, firing in a rifle with proper headspace will simply blow it back out to fill the chamber. Only if the rear of the case can move back far enough to exceed the elasticity of the case material, will the case separate. That will not happen if the headspace is within specified limits, since those limits take the elasticity of the case into consideration. There is a belief that with a case like the .303 British or .30-40 that there is some need for the case shoulder to be tight against the chamber shoulder, and that setting the shoulder back too far in reloading will cause excess headspace. That is not true. The only advantage of keeping resizing to a minimum is greater case life, since there will be less flexing of the brass at the case shoulder. But that has nothing to do with headspace. *A recurring problem with the .35 Remington! Jim |
June 26, 2014, 08:40 PM | #23 | ||
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Quote:
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The headspace can be correct, (proper dimension for the rim), and the chamber/case size relationship can still be excessive enough for cases to fail. That kind of thing is seldom a problem when firing a round ONCE, as usually cases will not fail the first time. Usually. Reloaders, on the other hand have to pay close attention to avoid issues.
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June 27, 2014, 07:39 AM | #24 |
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Neither of MY .35 Remingtons had any trouble holding headspace, nor a friend's that I shot a bit.
The normal recommendation for belted cartridges is to treat them like rimless and resize them to "headspace" against the shoulder. Routine sizing back to factory dimensions is said to lead to case separation in front of the belt, just like a rimless with the shoulder set back too far, too often. I can't say for sure, I don't belt. |
June 27, 2014, 02:57 PM | #25 |
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If it is necessary for rimmed and belted cases to be "headspaced" on the shoulder, how come the headspace gauges are only short plugs and not full length.
As to case separation, I too have had separation in a .303, but it was due to excess headspace, and I suspect yours was also. Note the disclaimer in what I wrote. I said "if the headspace is correct", the case will blow out to fill the chamber instead of case separation taking place. The pressure expands the thin front of the case outward and forward without stretching the case enough for separation. Separation is caused when pressure sticks the front of the case to the chamber walls, but the bolt can move back enough to allow the rear of the case to pull back and tear the case apart. I suppose it could happen some other way; I know of none, but am willing to be educated if someone comes up with a reasonable explanation (not just "it happens"). As to .35 Remington, one of the big PITAs as a gunsmith, was the parade of guns in that caliber (mostly Marlins) that had erratic firing. It took a while to figure out that a chamber that was even a bit "loose" (cut with a new reamer, I guess) would allow a slightly undersize cartridge to "cushion" and cause misfires. The occurrences were random. Sometimes, we could correct the problem by fiddling with the firing pin, other rifles had to be sent back to the factory. Jim |
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