So I bought the Lee ( 308 ) collet die ???? - Page 2

Brian Pfleuger · July 7, 2014, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Metal god

Those of you that use the collet die . What is your avg bullet hold/neck tension ? I can't seem to get very much hold . If I push the tip of the bullet into my bench . I can force the bullet into the case by hand . Maybe 20lbs of force but I really don't know . Is that normal ? I would think that's not enough bullet hold to prevent bullet set back

Screw the die down another 1/4 turn if need be.

Light neck tension is good if you don't need more to prevent set back. Light pressure means its a smaller and relatively more consistent factor in the pressure curve.

Elkins45 · July 7, 2014, 09:21 PM

I own the collet dies in 308 and 8x57 and have not had to mess with them to make them work, except for the very first time I used them where grit from the factory jammed the collet in the up position and a squished the next case by jamming it into the closed collet.

If you aren't getting the neck tension you want, one thing to try is to just remove the decapping mandrel and let the collet just close...but try cautiously before going crazy.

One thing I have found is that rotating the case 45* and closing the collet on it again seems to improve uniformity. I also adjust so my RCBS press doesn't cam over.

Metal god · July 8, 2014, 09:24 AM

Quote:

One thing I have found is that rotating the case 45*

I tried this when I first got the die . Not for bullet hold but to pinch out the unevenness of the neck crimp . You can feel the 4 bumps the slits of the collet makes on the neck after the first pass . That does not help .

Quote:

Screw the die down another 1/4 turn if need be.

So I tried that and broke the die or better yet pushed the top cap out about 2 threads with out turning the cap . There was a loud snap or pop and and my press went slack . I thought I broke the press at first like Clark did . once I figured out what happen I stopped and got up from the bench and have not been back .

I'm sure I did something wrong in this whole collet thing from the beginning but I think I'm over it . I know I have no confidence in collet dies right now so it's best if I give up while I still have a working press . At least I think it still works

Brian Pfleuger · July 8, 2014, 11:25 AM

The aluminium cap is designed to break if you exceed the shear strength so you DON'T damage the press.

The instructions that came with the die indicate 25lbs of force to size. Pushing harder doesn't do anything, once the collet is closed, it's closed. There's no more sizing to be done. Honestly, the collet dies require almost no force at all. It's barely harder to size a case than it is to operate the die with a case in the press.

How much material did you take out of the collet? It sounds like you took so much out that the collets don't size the case properly even when fully closed. I've never taken more than a couple thou to get it to fit.

What is the fired neck diameter of your largest brass?

Clark · July 8, 2014, 09:06 PM

Quote:

Brian Pfleuger
The aluminium cap is designed to break if you exceed the shear strength so you DON'T damage the press.

I have 11 Lee collet neck dies. The one that broke my first rockchucker press is ~~ 12 years old. It is an 8x57mm die.

I have here another new collet die, a 270. Taking them apart and looking the Aluminum caps I do see a difference. The weak spot should be the threads shearing off. The old die seems to always have 4 threads and the new new die cap always seems to have 3 male threads all the way around. That would be a 25% reduction since I broke my press.

Metal god · July 8, 2014, 09:27 PM

Clark : yeah I was thinking the older dies must have had steel caps to break your press but I got to tell ya . When my press went snap/pop I just sat there thinking You've got to be blanking kidding me .

OK here are my numbers for you guys , you tell me what went wrong ? ( well other then me using a bigger hammer

Mandrel diameter .305

fired case outside .345 - inside .310

With mandrel in the die .3065 inside neck

with mandrel removed .327 outside - .296 inside

Redding full length bushing sized .002 .303 inside

Brian Pfleuger · July 9, 2014, 08:04 AM

I think you went wrong believing that you need the case to be sized more than 0.0015 smaller than the bullet.

Sizing a .308 case down to .303 is too much. Brass only has 1-2 thou "spring back", as proved by the .305 mandrel sizing the brass to .3065.

You could go exactly the other way. Seat a bullet in that .303 case neck, pull it, and measure neck diameter. I bet it's .3065, or there abouts.

Going any smaller than that doesn't help anything. It's beyond the elastic limit of the brass and your simply using the bullet to resize the case again.

You could sand the mandrel down to .304 so you get 0.002 smaller than the bullet. Any more than that just makes bullet seating into a sizing operation.

Metal god · July 9, 2014, 10:46 AM

For the most part that's what I thought too. I've been sizing my cases using my FL bushing die .002 smaller then the loaded case . That's wth out the expander ball . When doing that my inside diameter is .303 . I never knew that till last night . When I sized my cases .001 smaller I was able to push the bullet into the case by hand . Well not by hand but after seated I could force the bullet deeper by pushing the tip hard in to my bench . I concidered that a soft seat and sized down another .001 for a total of .002 . At .002 smaller then a loaded case I was no longer able to force the bullet into the case .

So basiclly the collet die is sizing my case like I was using a .001 bushing maybe even a .0005 . It's really not that hard to push the bullet in deeper by hand . I don't even need to seat it with my press . I can force it in by hand . Just set the boat tail in the neck put the tip of the bullet against the side of my bench and push on the case and the bullet seats . That to me seems like to little bullet hold . Maybe not , I don't really know what is strong enough to prevent bullet set back

5R milspec · July 9, 2014, 08:19 PM

OK here goes to what I have done and do to all of my Lee collet dies.

First I clean and polish all parts that work together, even the mandrel and inside the fingers of the collet with a diamond compound ( really fine I should say )

Second I remove the primers from all the brass I want to load. I have found by doing this it allows me to feel the collet working as the brass reaches the top of the stroke. You will be able to feel the collet working as the brass enters the collet, and when it starts to close you can feel the collet stop working. This alone has kept me from damaging my brass and keeping the guess work of the 25 foot pounds that LEE recommends to use. Ounce the collet stops its done no other foot pound or grunt needed to resize the neck. I have all so marked the connecting arms of my rock chucker press to help with the amount of pressure needed to resize the necks of my brass. So far its been a winner for me and for my loads I like the results.

Hope this helps out

5R milspec · July 9, 2014, 08:27 PM

Just a quick question for metal god

how many loads are on your brass, you may need to anneal the necks to help aid in neck tension. If the brass has many loads on it then you might be looking at casehardened necks.

Metal god · July 9, 2014, 08:52 PM

5R : I've only been testing the collet die so all the brass used has been once fired PMJ nato or Winchester white box . My good brass ( good to me anyways ) I try to keep in lots of 100 so I never test new products with that brass till I understand how the die , seater or what ever new tool it may be works . The brass I use to test new things is often not my good brass I use all the time and none have been reloaded . It tends to be some type of random brass I don't have enough to start a 100 piece set/lot with .

Brian Pfleuger · July 10, 2014, 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 5R milspec

Second I remove the primers from all the brass I want to load. I have found by doing this it allows me to feel the collet working as the brass reaches the top of the stroke. You will be able to feel the collet working as the brass enters the collet, and when it starts to close you can feel the collet stop working. This alone has kept me from damaging my brass and keeping the guess work of the 25 foot pounds that LEE recommends to use.

I don't understand the need for this, the die punches out the primer way before it begins sizing. I've used the collet die as a deprimer without sizing several times. It's two entirely separate operations, for all intents and purposes.

5R milspec · July 12, 2014, 02:14 PM

too Brian

Yes you are right at what you posted, BUT to a new loader or one who wanted to try the Lee collet die it helps out. If a new loader to the world of reloading or even the well known guy to it want know all the tricks or even the feel yet to how the die works.. You know yourself that Lee only give's simple directions to the die. That's why all of use comment when we can to help, I am in no way trying to add or cause a problem. I must say that when one takes his time with the up stroke they can or should be able to feel the collets working as the ram moves higher. This alone has been one of the best tell tell signs for me to using the die, for this is why I mentioned it in the first place.

again hope this helps in any way

jwrowland77 · July 15, 2014, 06:46 AM

Mine must be an oddball.

I recently got one of these. Went slowly and set it up in about 5 minutes, 0 issues. No buckling, cases fit just fine. Used some once fired I had laying around. Didn't catch, snag, nothing. Just resized it to an internal measurement of .306.

Brian Pfleuger · July 15, 2014, 03:08 PM

Most of them function out of the box. I've had two that were too small, both .243.

I've had every single one ever that was very rough internally and greatly benefited from sanding/polishing.

I've seen pictures of newer ones that suggest that Lee is getting better at finishing them. I ordered one in .30-06 a few months ago. It is better and functioned out of the box but it's still a lot rougher than they should be for best function, especially since the cutting marks are perpendicular to the direction of travel.

5 minutes with it chucked in a drill and some sandpaper and polishing compound, now it's smooth as glass, literally. Mirror finish.

jwrowland77 · July 15, 2014, 03:09 PM

I might have to keep an eye on the .243 one I plan to buy. I have one in .223 I just got but haven't set it up yet. It'll probably be a couple weeks before I do though.

5R milspec · July 16, 2014, 12:15 AM

To those who buy for the first time, just do as we have all suggested and you should be ok with setting up the die. Taking the time to look at it before use will go a long ways. It's sad that Lee makes such a great die with little care in the finish, but maybe Lee himself doesn't worry about the marks they sometimes put on the brass, who knows Lee hasn't posted yet. When one takes the time to do a little work themselves it makes a big difference to how the die works for the one using it. Like said before some brass will just run right up into the die without any issue, but I have found that Lapua, and Hornady has thicker necks so it will hit when it just starts to enter the collets. So a little work is needed to help out with this. Maybe if one could or even a known machinist could chamfer the inside to help with this to keep this from happening. Or Lee could rework the die and make it to fit the shoulder some how that will help aid in this, who knows but I would like to know.

July 8, 2014, 11:25 AM	#29
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	The aluminium cap is designed to break if you exceed the shear strength so you DON'T damage the press. The instructions that came with the die indicate 25lbs of force to size. Pushing harder doesn't do anything, once the collet is closed, it's closed. There's no more sizing to be done. Honestly, the collet dies require almost no force at all. It's barely harder to size a case than it is to operate the die with a case in the press. How much material did you take out of the collet? It sounds like you took so much out that the collets don't size the case properly even when fully closed. I've never taken more than a couple thou to get it to fit. What is the fired neck diameter of your largest brass? __________________ Nobody plans to screw up their lives... ...they just don't plan not to. -Andy Stanley

July 8, 2014, 09:27 PM	#31
Metal god Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2012 Location: San Diego CA Posts: 6,876	Clark : yeah I was thinking the older dies must have had steel caps to break your press but I got to tell ya . When my press went snap/pop I just sat there thinking You've got to be blanking kidding me . OK here are my numbers for you guys , you tell me what went wrong ? ( well other then me using a bigger hammer Mandrel diameter .305 fired case outside .345 - inside .310 With mandrel in the die .3065 inside neck with mandrel removed .327 outside - .296 inside Redding full length bushing sized .002 .303 inside __________________ If Jesus had a gun , he'd probably still be alive ! I almost always write my posts regardless of content in a jovial manor and intent . If that's not how you took it , please try again .

July 9, 2014, 10:46 AM	#33
Metal god Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2012 Location: San Diego CA Posts: 6,876	For the most part that's what I thought too. I've been sizing my cases using my FL bushing die .002 smaller then the loaded case . That's wth out the expander ball . When doing that my inside diameter is .303 . I never knew that till last night . When I sized my cases .001 smaller I was able to push the bullet into the case by hand . Well not by hand but after seated I could force the bullet deeper by pushing the tip hard in to my bench . I concidered that a soft seat and sized down another .001 for a total of .002 . At .002 smaller then a loaded case I was no longer able to force the bullet into the case . So basiclly the collet die is sizing my case like I was using a .001 bushing maybe even a .0005 . It's really not that hard to push the bullet in deeper by hand . I don't even need to seat it with my press . I can force it in by hand . Just set the boat tail in the neck put the tip of the bullet against the side of my bench and push on the case and the bullet seats . That to me seems like to little bullet hold . Maybe not , I don't really know what is strong enough to prevent bullet set back __________________ If Jesus had a gun , he'd probably still be alive ! I almost always write my posts regardless of content in a jovial manor and intent . If that's not how you took it , please try again .

July 9, 2014, 08:19 PM	#34
5R milspec Senior Member Join Date: December 11, 2009 Location: South Carolina Posts: 360	OK here goes to what I have done and do to all of my Lee collet dies. First I clean and polish all parts that work together, even the mandrel and inside the fingers of the collet with a diamond compound ( really fine I should say ) Second I remove the primers from all the brass I want to load. I have found by doing this it allows me to feel the collet working as the brass reaches the top of the stroke. You will be able to feel the collet working as the brass enters the collet, and when it starts to close you can feel the collet stop working. This alone has kept me from damaging my brass and keeping the guess work of the 25 foot pounds that LEE recommends to use. Ounce the collet stops its done no other foot pound or grunt needed to resize the neck. I have all so marked the connecting arms of my rock chucker press to help with the amount of pressure needed to resize the necks of my brass. So far its been a winner for me and for my loads I like the results. Hope this helps out __________________ life is great but its better when you can own as many guns you wish to own.for me I haven't bought enough yet.

July 9, 2014, 08:27 PM	#35
5R milspec Senior Member Join Date: December 11, 2009 Location: South Carolina Posts: 360	Just a quick question for metal god how many loads are on your brass, you may need to anneal the necks to help aid in neck tension. If the brass has many loads on it then you might be looking at casehardened necks. __________________ life is great but its better when you can own as many guns you wish to own.for me I haven't bought enough yet.

July 7, 2014, 09:21 PM	#27
Elkins45 Senior Member Join Date: February 24, 2010 Posts: 498	I own the collet dies in 308 and 8x57 and have not had to mess with them to make them work, except for the very first time I used them where grit from the factory jammed the collet in the up position and a squished the next case by jamming it into the closed collet. If you aren't getting the neck tension you want, one thing to try is to just remove the decapping mandrel and let the collet just close...but try cautiously before going crazy. One thing I have found is that rotating the case 45* and closing the collet on it again seems to improve uniformity. I also adjust so my RCBS press doesn't cam over.

July 9, 2014, 08:04 AM	#32
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	I think you went wrong believing that you need the case to be sized more than 0.0015 smaller than the bullet. Sizing a .308 case down to .303 is too much. Brass only has 1-2 thou "spring back", as proved by the .305 mandrel sizing the brass to .3065. You could go exactly the other way. Seat a bullet in that .303 case neck, pull it, and measure neck diameter. I bet it's .3065, or there abouts. Going any smaller than that doesn't help anything. It's beyond the elastic limit of the brass and your simply using the bullet to resize the case again. You could sand the mandrel down to .304 so you get 0.002 smaller than the bullet. Any more than that just makes bullet seating into a sizing operation.

July 9, 2014, 08:52 PM	#36
Metal god Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2012 Location: San Diego CA Posts: 6,876	5R : I've only been testing the collet die so all the brass used has been once fired PMJ nato or Winchester white box . My good brass ( good to me anyways ) I try to keep in lots of 100 so I never test new products with that brass till I understand how the die , seater or what ever new tool it may be works . The brass I use to test new things is often not my good brass I use all the time and none have been reloaded . It tends to be some type of random brass I don't have enough to start a 100 piece set/lot with . __________________ If Jesus had a gun , he'd probably still be alive ! I almost always write my posts regardless of content in a jovial manor and intent . If that's not how you took it , please try again .

July 12, 2014, 02:14 PM	#38
5R milspec Senior Member Join Date: December 11, 2009 Location: South Carolina Posts: 360	too Brian Yes you are right at what you posted, BUT to a new loader or one who wanted to try the Lee collet die it helps out. If a new loader to the world of reloading or even the well known guy to it want know all the tricks or even the feel yet to how the die works.. You know yourself that Lee only give's simple directions to the die. That's why all of use comment when we can to help, I am in no way trying to add or cause a problem. I must say that when one takes his time with the up stroke they can or should be able to feel the collets working as the ram moves higher. This alone has been one of the best tell tell signs for me to using the die, for this is why I mentioned it in the first place. again hope this helps in any way __________________ life is great but its better when you can own as many guns you wish to own.for me I haven't bought enough yet.

July 15, 2014, 06:46 AM	#39
jwrowland77 Senior Member Join Date: March 23, 2012 Location: Conway, Arkansas Posts: 1,398	Mine must be an oddball. I recently got one of these. Went slowly and set it up in about 5 minutes, 0 issues. No buckling, cases fit just fine. Used some once fired I had laying around. Didn't catch, snag, nothing. Just resized it to an internal measurement of .306.

July 15, 2014, 03:08 PM	#40
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	Most of them function out of the box. I've had two that were too small, both .243. I've had every single one ever that was very rough internally and greatly benefited from sanding/polishing. I've seen pictures of newer ones that suggest that Lee is getting better at finishing them. I ordered one in .30-06 a few months ago. It is better and functioned out of the box but it's still a lot rougher than they should be for best function, especially since the cutting marks are perpendicular to the direction of travel. 5 minutes with it chucked in a drill and some sandpaper and polishing compound, now it's smooth as glass, literally. Mirror finish. __________________ Nobody plans to screw up their lives... ...they just don't plan not to. -Andy Stanley Last edited by Brian Pfleuger; July 15, 2014 at 07:17 PM. Reason: too not two

July 15, 2014, 03:09 PM	#41
jwrowland77 Senior Member Join Date: March 23, 2012 Location: Conway, Arkansas Posts: 1,398	I might have to keep an eye on the .243 one I plan to buy. I have one in .223 I just got but haven't set it up yet. It'll probably be a couple weeks before I do though.

July 16, 2014, 12:15 AM	#42
5R milspec Senior Member Join Date: December 11, 2009 Location: South Carolina Posts: 360	To those who buy for the first time, just do as we have all suggested and you should be ok with setting up the die. Taking the time to look at it before use will go a long ways. It's sad that Lee makes such a great die with little care in the finish, but maybe Lee himself doesn't worry about the marks they sometimes put on the brass, who knows Lee hasn't posted yet. When one takes the time to do a little work themselves it makes a big difference to how the die works for the one using it. Like said before some brass will just run right up into the die without any issue, but I have found that Lapua, and Hornady has thicker necks so it will hit when it just starts to enter the collets. So a little work is needed to help out with this. Maybe if one could or even a known machinist could chamfer the inside to help with this to keep this from happening. Or Lee could rework the die and make it to fit the shoulder some how that will help aid in this, who knows but I would like to know. __________________ life is great but its better when you can own as many guns you wish to own.for me I haven't bought enough yet.