Problem sizing rifle cases

ctulanko · July 18, 2008, 10:55 PM

I am having a problem with sizing rifle casings. I have tried both 30-30 and 444 and every time I run the casing into the die, they extract with a dimple in the side of the case running lengthwise and about 3/8" long. The dies have not been used for a while, but are in excellent condition and one set is RCBS and the other is CH brand. On the 444, the indent is about 1/2" down below the neck, while the 30-30's are just below the shoulder. The press appears to be running them up straight and I am using RCBS case lube and pad for the casings. I have tried with and without the extractor and it doesn't make a difference.

I mic'ed the 30-30's and they are dead on in length and shoulder position, according to the books, with a length varying from 2.030" to 2.035" and sizing to 2.040 inches, so I don't think they are too long. Also, they have only been reloaded from never to twice max, so they haven't stretched much. Lube was removed from the shoulder on the 30-30 casings to make sure that was not the problem, but it didn't make a difference.

Each die is set to bottom out on the press with a full throw of the arm. If I back the die away 1/16" or so, they size without dimpling, but I am not sure the neck is completly sizing properly, nor the base of the casing. Any ideas or suggestions would be greatly appreciated as I am in a spot and have several hundred rounds to load. This problem is driving me crazy!

Thanks in advance for any help,

Carl

snuffy · July 18, 2008, 11:34 PM

Quote:

I have tried with and without the extractor and it doesn't make a difference.

HUH?

Too much lube. Clean out your dies thoroughly, then get rid of the excess lube you apparently have on your pad. You should only have a light film on the pad, that transfers an even lighter film onto your cases.

Go ahead and load those dimpled cases. The dimples will be totally gone from the pressure of firing. It's about the only way to get rid of them, it won't hurt a thing.

Sidetracked · July 18, 2008, 11:40 PM

What brand dies are you using?

Sport45 · July 19, 2008, 01:43 AM

ctulanko - Welcome to The Firing Line.

What you describe sounds like lube dents to me to although mine are usually on the shoulder. Make sure the dies are clean and like snuffy said, use less lube.

Are you calling the decapping pin the extractor? If so you ned to put it back in the die. The die will undersize the neck which is then brough back to the proper size by the expander button on the decapping pin when it is pulled back through. The expander button should be down in the open area of the die and not up in the neck sizing area.

Ifishsum · July 19, 2008, 03:55 AM

Dimples are almost always from using too much lube. I lightly lube only the bottom 1/2 of the case and sometimes the mouth but keep the lube away from the shoulder area. cleaning your dies may help too - there's likely a bunch of lube from other cases in there

Martyn4802 · July 19, 2008, 06:24 AM

ctulanko,

Welcome aboard!!!!

I think the guys above have nailed your problem; too much lube on the cases.
I use Imperial Sizing Wax on the lower half of the case only so that I don't get any of it up in the die where dimples will arise, especially on the shoulder area.
For the case necks, I just dip the upper half of neck of the unsized case in some powdered graphite so it runs smoothly thru the die.
Over lubing is a concern in sizing cases. Just a little dab all the way around the bottom half of the case will do ya.

ryalred · July 19, 2008, 10:29 AM

As nearly everyone has stated, it sounds like too much lube. If you continue to have problems getting too much lube, you might try a spray on lube, seems they're not as prone to getting too much. I switched to Hornady One Shot spray lube about a year ago and really like it. There are other brands of spray lubes to check out as well.

ctulanko · July 20, 2008, 12:41 PM

Thanks for the warm welcome guys...I am sure glad I found this forum! Well, as you all suspected I was using way too much lube on the casings. It had been a long time since I loaded up long rifle (20 years), so the help and brain refresh was much appreciated. As soon as I scraped the pad off, then did a light lube, I was back in business. I have finished both calibers and am getting ready to load them. Thanks again to all who stepped in and helped!

Martyn4802 · July 20, 2008, 01:30 PM

ctulanko,

Good job, hang in there, and if you have any questions, ask away. It's far better asking questions BEFORE you screw up..

W. C. Quantrill · July 20, 2008, 01:45 PM

Make sure you clean the inside of your dies good with some solvent and a soft brush. Take them apart and clean them then reset them. Once you have them loaded, it is a good idea to clean the excess lube off the outside of the cases also, as that will prevent excess stretching when fired in the chamber.

ctulanko · July 21, 2008, 05:45 PM

W.C.

Thanks for the tip...that is something I did to all the dies before using them. I disassembled them, then used Acetone and got them squeaky clean before use. I am pretty set in my ways about doing rifle rounds, so keeping them clean is a big thing with me. I tumble the brass to a shine, then size them, wipe the lube off each round, re-tumble them to get em shiny again, then wipe the cleaning dust off the brass and clean out the primer pockets before loading. It's kinda like a ritual and I have fun doing it.

Thanks again guys...I look forward to having a good time here! Oh, and I have no problem asking questions...I am shy like that!

butta9999 · July 22, 2008, 03:53 AM

yes clean the lube after sizing, as well as oil out of the chamber. When fired the case needs to grip the chamber so it all needs to be free of lubricants. It will cause excessive force on the rear of your action.

gunney 67 · July 22, 2008, 04:55 PM

welcome aboard! Remember to check your case length every couple of reloadings. the case necks will stretch and need to be trimmed back to spec dimensions or you risk pinching the bullet between the case neck and end of chamber at the rifling leades, which will jump pressures to dangerous levels quickly.

ctulanko · July 23, 2008, 10:05 AM

That I will do gunny...I have a couple of industrial grade dial calipers I use to check them and the last resizing put them right at the speced length in my old Hornady book...I think it was like 2.040" in length. I am thinking I should get a new book though so I can check out the newest data, as mine is quite old...third edition from 1980 and I also have the smaller second edition from 1973.

gunney 67 · July 23, 2008, 03:04 PM

my lyman case length manual lists max length for 30-30 as 2.039; trim back .010 to 2.029" 444marlin is 2.225; trim back to2.220" You may be over lubing the cases. the most critical area for lube is the bottom half of the cartridge case, since this is where the max taper is. this also avoids the problem of lube migrating into the shoulder area of the die and causing dimples in the case. you can tell if you need more lube by feeling the case go into the die. if it seems too hard pull it and add more lube, don't risk a stuck case. also, lube the inside of the case mouth to ease the expander ball as it passes thru. this helps with minimizing case neck stretching. white graphite works best, but you can use lite grease. I wipe it back out afterwards with a Q-tip so it doesn't affect bullet tension in the case neck. If you full-length size, the die should just kiss the top of the shell holder, if you want to neck size only, back the die off about the thickness of a nickel. also I always measure for case length after I size, since this process can cause them to grow a few thousandths Case length is critical, watch it closely.

gunney 67 · July 23, 2008, 04:05 PM

watch contaminating your primers with case lube on your fingers. if it gets on the priming compound, it can render the primer inert. same goes for gun oil. another reason not to over lube a handgun. oil can migrate down the firing pin when carried in a holster and wick around the primer under it and cause a misfire. embarassing if your just plinking, but it can have more serious consequences if you're betting your life on that round.

snuffy · July 23, 2008, 11:48 PM

Quote:

watch contaminating your primers with case lube on your fingers. if it gets on the priming compound, it can render the primer inert. same goes for gun oil. another reason not to over lube a handgun. oil can migrate down the firing pin when carried in a holster and wick around the primer under it and cause a misfire. embarrassing if your just plinking, but it can have more serious consequences if you're betting your life on that round.

No it won't. Neither will case lube. It has been tested again and again that nothing will completely de-activate a primer, other than a harsh solvent. At least not primers we have available these days.

gunney 67 · July 24, 2008, 10:58 AM

I stand corrected on that old wives tale.

ctulanko · July 24, 2008, 12:08 PM

Priming won't be a problem gunney 97...cases are not primed until they are sized, wiped off, re-tumbled / polished, wiped down again and pockets cleaned. Like I said, I am pretty picky about the system I use. In addition, I use a primer auto feed tube, so I never actually have to touch the primers, which is a good thing in itself.

July 18, 2008, 10:55 PM	#1
ctulanko Junior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 12	Problem sizing rifle cases I am having a problem with sizing rifle casings. I have tried both 30-30 and 444 and every time I run the casing into the die, they extract with a dimple in the side of the case running lengthwise and about 3/8" long. The dies have not been used for a while, but are in excellent condition and one set is RCBS and the other is CH brand. On the 444, the indent is about 1/2" down below the neck, while the 30-30's are just below the shoulder. The press appears to be running them up straight and I am using RCBS case lube and pad for the casings. I have tried with and without the extractor and it doesn't make a difference. I mic'ed the 30-30's and they are dead on in length and shoulder position, according to the books, with a length varying from 2.030" to 2.035" and sizing to 2.040 inches, so I don't think they are too long. Also, they have only been reloaded from never to twice max, so they haven't stretched much. Lube was removed from the shoulder on the 30-30 casings to make sure that was not the problem, but it didn't make a difference. Each die is set to bottom out on the press with a full throw of the arm. If I back the die away 1/16" or so, they size without dimpling, but I am not sure the neck is completly sizing properly, nor the base of the casing. Any ideas or suggestions would be greatly appreciated as I am in a spot and have several hundred rounds to load. This problem is driving me crazy! Thanks in advance for any help, Carl

July 18, 2008, 11:40 PM	#3
Sidetracked Senior Member Join Date: May 12, 2008 Location: Henrietta, FL Posts: 306	What brand dies are you using? __________________ Feel free to disagree with my opinion. -I do it all the time.

July 19, 2008, 01:43 AM	#4
Sport45 Senior Member Join Date: May 25, 1999 Location: Too close to Houston Posts: 4,196	ctulanko - Welcome to The Firing Line. What you describe sounds like lube dents to me to although mine are usually on the shoulder. Make sure the dies are clean and like snuffy said, use less lube. Are you calling the decapping pin the extractor? If so you ned to put it back in the die. The die will undersize the neck which is then brough back to the proper size by the expander button on the decapping pin when it is pulled back through. The expander button should be down in the open area of the die and not up in the neck sizing area. __________________ Proud member of the NRA and Texas State Rifle Association. Registered and active voter.

July 19, 2008, 06:24 AM	#6
Martyn4802 Senior Member Join Date: June 12, 2007 Location: Grayling, Michigan Posts: 737	ctulanko, Welcome aboard!!!! I think the guys above have nailed your problem; too much lube on the cases. I use Imperial Sizing Wax on the lower half of the case only so that I don't get any of it up in the die where dimples will arise, especially on the shoulder area. For the case necks, I just dip the upper half of neck of the unsized case in some powdered graphite so it runs smoothly thru the die. Over lubing is a concern in sizing cases. Just a little dab all the way around the bottom half of the case will do ya. __________________ US Army Retired NRA Benefactor Life Member JPFO

July 19, 2008, 10:29 AM	#7
ryalred Senior Member Join Date: March 24, 2008 Location: SE Oklahoma Posts: 491	As nearly everyone has stated, it sounds like too much lube. If you continue to have problems getting too much lube, you might try a spray on lube, seems they're not as prone to getting too much. I switched to Hornady One Shot spray lube about a year ago and really like it. There are other brands of spray lubes to check out as well. __________________ ryalred rifle & muzzleloader -- exhilarating bowhunting -- obsession reloading -- addicted

July 19, 2008, 03:55 AM	#5
Ifishsum Senior Member Join Date: September 15, 2005 Location: Oregon Posts: 1,033	Dimples are almost always from using too much lube. I lightly lube only the bottom 1/2 of the case and sometimes the mouth but keep the lube away from the shoulder area. cleaning your dies may help too - there's likely a bunch of lube from other cases in there

July 20, 2008, 12:41 PM	#8
ctulanko Junior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 12	Thanks for the warm welcome guys...I am sure glad I found this forum! Well, as you all suspected I was using way too much lube on the casings. It had been a long time since I loaded up long rifle (20 years), so the help and brain refresh was much appreciated. As soon as I scraped the pad off, then did a light lube, I was back in business. I have finished both calibers and am getting ready to load them. Thanks again to all who stepped in and helped!

July 20, 2008, 01:30 PM	#9
Martyn4802 Senior Member Join Date: June 12, 2007 Location: Grayling, Michigan Posts: 737	ctulanko, Good job, hang in there, and if you have any questions, ask away. It's far better asking questions BEFORE you screw up.. __________________ US Army Retired NRA Benefactor Life Member JPFO

July 20, 2008, 01:45 PM	#10
W. C. Quantrill Senior Member Join Date: February 11, 2008 Location: No Man's Land Posts: 354	Make sure you clean the inside of your dies good with some solvent and a soft brush. Take them apart and clean them then reset them. Once you have them loaded, it is a good idea to clean the excess lube off the outside of the cases also, as that will prevent excess stretching when fired in the chamber. __________________ NRA Life Whittington Center Life

July 21, 2008, 05:45 PM	#11
ctulanko Junior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 12	W.C. Thanks for the tip...that is something I did to all the dies before using them. I disassembled them, then used Acetone and got them squeaky clean before use. I am pretty set in my ways about doing rifle rounds, so keeping them clean is a big thing with me. I tumble the brass to a shine, then size them, wipe the lube off each round, re-tumble them to get em shiny again, then wipe the cleaning dust off the brass and clean out the primer pockets before loading. It's kinda like a ritual and I have fun doing it. Thanks again guys...I look forward to having a good time here! Oh, and I have no problem asking questions...I am shy like that!

July 22, 2008, 03:53 AM	#12
butta9999 Senior Member Join Date: June 29, 2008 Location: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia Posts: 692	yes clean the lube after sizing, as well as oil out of the chamber. When fired the case needs to grip the chamber so it all needs to be free of lubricants. It will cause excessive force on the rear of your action.

July 22, 2008, 04:55 PM	#13
gunney 67 Member Join Date: July 21, 2008 Location: boise idaho Posts: 77	welcome aboard! Remember to check your case length every couple of reloadings. the case necks will stretch and need to be trimmed back to spec dimensions or you risk pinching the bullet between the case neck and end of chamber at the rifling leades, which will jump pressures to dangerous levels quickly.

July 23, 2008, 10:05 AM	#14
ctulanko Junior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 12	That I will do gunny...I have a couple of industrial grade dial calipers I use to check them and the last resizing put them right at the speced length in my old Hornady book...I think it was like 2.040" in length. I am thinking I should get a new book though so I can check out the newest data, as mine is quite old...third edition from 1980 and I also have the smaller second edition from 1973.

July 23, 2008, 03:04 PM	#15
gunney 67 Member Join Date: July 21, 2008 Location: boise idaho Posts: 77	respond to ctulanko my lyman case length manual lists max length for 30-30 as 2.039; trim back .010 to 2.029" 444marlin is 2.225; trim back to2.220" You may be over lubing the cases. the most critical area for lube is the bottom half of the cartridge case, since this is where the max taper is. this also avoids the problem of lube migrating into the shoulder area of the die and causing dimples in the case. you can tell if you need more lube by feeling the case go into the die. if it seems too hard pull it and add more lube, don't risk a stuck case. also, lube the inside of the case mouth to ease the expander ball as it passes thru. this helps with minimizing case neck stretching. white graphite works best, but you can use lite grease. I wipe it back out afterwards with a Q-tip so it doesn't affect bullet tension in the case neck. If you full-length size, the die should just kiss the top of the shell holder, if you want to neck size only, back the die off about the thickness of a nickel. also I always measure for case length after I size, since this process can cause them to grow a few thousandths Case length is critical, watch it closely.

July 23, 2008, 04:05 PM	#16
gunney 67 Member Join Date: July 21, 2008 Location: boise idaho Posts: 77	further on case lube watch contaminating your primers with case lube on your fingers. if it gets on the priming compound, it can render the primer inert. same goes for gun oil. another reason not to over lube a handgun. oil can migrate down the firing pin when carried in a holster and wick around the primer under it and cause a misfire. embarassing if your just plinking, but it can have more serious consequences if you're betting your life on that round.

July 24, 2008, 10:58 AM	#18
gunney 67 Member Join Date: July 21, 2008 Location: boise idaho Posts: 77	reply to snuffy I stand corrected on that old wives tale.

July 24, 2008, 12:08 PM	#19
ctulanko Junior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 12	Priming won't be a problem gunney 97...cases are not primed until they are sized, wiped off, re-tumbled / polished, wiped down again and pockets cleaned. Like I said, I am pretty picky about the system I use. In addition, I use a primer auto feed tube, so I never actually have to touch the primers, which is a good thing in itself.