460 Rowland in 45 acp cases

[IllinoisCoyoteHunter]

Has anyone here used 460 rowland data in 45 acp cases and fired them out of a 45 acp chambered barrel?

For example, say a glock 21 with an aftermarket, fully supported Lone wolf, bar sto, or storm lake barrel???

I understand that a 24# recoil spring would probably be needed, and possibly some stiffer springs in the magazine to compensate for increased slide speed.

Aside from the metalurgy of the barrel (which is probably the exact same for all barrels within a given manufacturer, whether it will be a 45 acp barrel or 10mm barrel) what else might be a hold up???

Internal case capacity is the same for both cartridges. The only difference is the extra length on the 460 cases which may give a little extra bullet grip (case tension). Aside from that, both cartridges are loaded to the same COL and the brass is the same thickness throughout.

Also, Johnny Rowland claims that a compensator is needed for the round to cycle properly, but there are uncompensated barrels out there that seem to work just fine.

So what gives??

[Clark]

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.
I have fired nothing BUT 460 Rowland loads in mixed, used 45acp brass in the above two guns.

The two partners that owned the company that built the Patriot pistol [They got Nehemia Sirkis to design it] wrote a manual that said "no +P".
But they knew what I was doing and supported me with free parts.
I bought it for that project because of the case support, but dealing with the recoil was the chore. You can see the 42 pound triple recoil spring assembly I built.

The rifle is a 1903 Turkish Mauser that I put a Shilen .452" groove barrel on it and chambered with a .469" straight fluted reamer.
That is a very heavy rifle with a recoil pad. So recoil is not a problem. With ear protectors on, ear plugs in, and other people shooting, it is still audible when the 45 bullet hits plywood at 100 yards.

What does it all mean?
1) A work up to 460 levels will be thwarted by case bulges if there is not good enough case support.
0.18" is all the way to the case web and is perfect. 0.225" will not even make it to 45 Super. Put a case in the chamber and trace the outline of the feed ramp on the case using a needle. Measure that with calipers. Later, if you see bulges in a work up, the bulges will have that shape, but may be ~~.010" longer from the case being pushed back against the breech face.
2) 45acp brass case heads are plenty strong [primer will not fall out], but the longer length of 460 Rowland brass helps keep it separated.
3) Recoil is a problem, and the solutions are; a heavy slide, stiff recoil spring(s), recoil compensator, and a sense of humor.
4) The smartest thing to do with 460 Rowland loads is to reduce them until whatever semi auto you are shooting, with whatever springs, has brass landing 5' away. You don't want the slide hammering the frame, wearing out the pistol and your hand.

[Lost Sheep]

How do the power and pressure levels you contemplate compare to those statistics for the 45 Super?

Lost Sheep

[IllinoisCoyoteHunter]

Maximum Average Pressure is: 45 ACP (21,000 PSI), .45 ACP +P (23,000 PSI), .45 Super (28,000 PSI), .460 Rowland (40,000 PSI)

Per wikipedia

Rowland is somewhere in the 900-1,000 ft lbs muzzle energy, depending on given load

[Sevens]

I ask because I'm curious. Is your motivator simply the cost/supply of .460 Rowland brass, or is it the cost of a slightly reamed chamber?

I would be more on board if we were talking about a slight or even moderate increase from .45 Auto to .460 Rowland, but the jump is cavernous, it's not a small divide here.

[IllinoisCoyoteHunter]

My motivator is both the cost of Rowland brass AND the cost of reaming a chamber.

My main motivator is the fact that I can achieve the same results, as long as I am diligent and carefully work up loads, while saving a bunch of money.

I know the jump is cavernous, but exactly what is the difference between a $300 kit and doing it yourself??? I will sork from 45 super loads to the 460 Rowland loads. Dimensionally, the loaded cartridges are the same except for the extra length on the Rowland (which does not add any extra case capacity because the bullet is seated deeper to keep the same COL as 45 acp).

Sevens, I respect your input. Clark, thanks for the fabulous post.

[bfoosh006]

.45 ACP brass and barrels are not built to handle .460 Rowland Pressures and recoil. I strongly advise you not to do it. If you want the power, you are gonna need to pay for it. Using .45 ACP cases will make you pay for it in a bad way.....

[IllinoisCoyoteHunter]

Bfoosh, where do you get your information???

Actually, I read an article where a fellow loaded 45 acp cases to rowland data in a Blackhawk. Cases held up fine and showed no signs of pressure. As long as the case is fully supported in the ACP chamber, there should be no problems. With proper recoil and mag springs the gun should operate just fine.

When you say I need to pay for the extra power, please tell me what the difference is between a 45acp barrel and a 460 rowland barrel (minus the obvious compensator that is thrown on some rowland barrels). You are telling me that acp barrels are not made to withstand 40,000 psi????

[Sevens]

I'm not trying to be adversarial and I'll be interested to see how it develops but I'll add another thought from my corner.

The compensator does a lot of work to get that pressure out of the barrel earlier so that the chamber pressure can drop to a point where it makes rational sense to begin unlocking the pistol. Not being an engineer nor a gunsmith, I truly have no idea how to balance all of that and make them run in concert with each other, but it's a large bore and a high pressure and those items are a big part of where my concern comes from. So while the barrel itself and the brass can handle 40k PSI, will the handgun and it's locking mechanism and it's frame handle the abuse if it's unlocking at the wrong time? And how well will the brass hold up if the pressure is still too high when it begins to unlock and extract?

We've seen what early Glock pistols and their chamber support does to .40 S&W brass and that is when it's all running as it was designed, and at 35,000 PSI. That's a chambering that's been fully engineered, tested and put in to service by S&W and Winchester, and we see how wonky it can make brass. The Rowland, while it carries a SAAMI spec and it's been marketed by Johnny Rowland and Clark Custom... is still kind of a legitimized handgun wildcat, almost. It's not mainstream, for sure. That doesn't make it BAD or scary, but it's also not been explored by nearly every established gunmaker and ammo manufacturer.

I'm interested in this project and will enjoy to see how it develops -- but I gotta say, I'm staying a by-stander. Of course, I have the luxury of having a buddy that's got a Remington R1 that's been "Rowland-ized" by Clark Custom, and 500 pieces of proper brass to use with it. I thought the project was pretty affordable... but then, it wasn't my money.

[IllinoisCoyoteHunter]

Yes, the whole compensator idea I think is a gimmick (when it comes to keeping the gun locked up just a split second longer). Having owned the Clark Custom 1911 kit years ago, the comp. sure does help with the felt recoil and muzzle flip. Like you Sevens, I am NOT an engineer or gunsmith. I am just not sure how the componsator would alow the pressure in the barrel to escape FASTER???? You would think that it would keep pressure a touch higher because it adds length to the barrel (even though the compensator is not bore diameter.) It just isn't making sense to me. Maybe someone can enlighten me as to the physics on how a compensator allows barrel pressure to dissipate FASTER than just a barrel without a compensator, given the barrels are the same length???

NOW, if it was PORTED, I could see how this would dissipate pressure faster. But we are not talking about porting. Maybe when I order my aftermarket barrel I order the ported barrel...

I, too, am not trying to be adversarial. Just a curious mind always thinking about something. Thank you all for your input thus far!!

[IllinoisCoyoteHunter]

I am learning....here is some interesting info on compensators.

http://bb-enterprise.biz/FAQsComps.ivnu

[Viper225]

My understanding is that (Starline) makes 3 different Case designs (weights) in the basic 45 acp platform.

45 acp
45 acp+P
45 Super (Same Case Length as 45acp, the same basic brass as 45 Win Magnum)
460 Rolland (Longer Case Length than 45 acp, the same basic brass as 45 Win Magnum)
45 Winchester Magnum

The heavier made brass in the web area is to help prevent Bulging/Blown Out Cases in the web area. I would recommend going with 45 Super Brass if I were winding the loads up past +P, with a standard 45acp chamber. I would also make sure not to mix the ammo so loaded up where it could get into a non-modified semi auto.

I have a 625 S&W that has been rechambered to 460 Rolland. I ONLY wind up loads past 45 acp +P in 460 Rolland Brass to keep it out of 45acp chambered guns not set up to take the added Pressure/Slide Velocity. I have no experiance with HOT (Past +P Loads) in a semi auto 45 acp. I also have a Colt 1911 that I do not intend to wreck with Past +P loads. Myself I will keep my Hot Loads in Rolland Brass.

Bob

[COSteve]

To load a 45acp case to 460 Roland pressure levels is to build a bomb you hold in your hand. This is hands down the stupidest thing I've ever seen contemplated on any gun site.

If you are stupid enough to try this don't be surprised if you lose the use of your shooting hand, your eyesight, and possibly your life.

[IllinoisCoyoteHunter]

LOL!

COSteve, you have absolutely NO idea what you are talking about.

Until you have a clue please do not comment on this thread again. Thanks!

[COSteve]

On the contrary, this thread is talking about loading a low pressure case in a barrel designed for a low pressure round with a 40,000psi load. That is a recipe for disaster. The idea that a compensator on the front of the barrel will do anything to alleviate the extreme chamber pressure is absolutely ludicrous.

[IllinoisCoyoteHunter]

Once again, you have no idea what you are talking about. Never did we say a compensator is used to alleviate chamber pressure. We were discussing how the compensator affects lock up and unlocking.

So, read the entire thread, and then if you wish to make a sensible comment, feel free to do so. Until then, quit commenting on topics you don't understand or can't back up.

[COSteve]

Sir, you need to re-read the following as it is a faulty assumption that could get someone killed.

"The compensator does a lot of work to get that pressure out of the barrel earlier so that the chamber pressure can drop to a point where it makes rational sense to begin unlocking the pistol. Not being an engineer nor a gunsmith, I truly have no idea how to balance all of that and make them run in concert with each other, but it's a large bore and a high pressure and those items are a big part of where my concern comes from. So while the barrel itself and the brass can handle 40k PSI, will the handgun and it's locking mechanism and it's frame handle the abuse if it's unlocking at the wrong time? And how well will the brass hold up if the pressure is still too high when it begins to unlock and extract?"

1st faulty statement by Stevens - "So while the barrel itself and the brass can handle 40k PSI..."

The point is that neither the barrel nor the brass can handle 40K PSI. That is way above Proof pressures for a 45acp. Maybe the brass barrel will hold together for a while but it is a catastrophic failure waiting to happen.

2nd faulty statement by IllinoisCoyoteHunter - "As long as the case is fully supported in the ACP chamber, there should be no problems."

There are no semi-auto pistols based upon John Browning's design that has a truely 'fully supported' chamber. This is because the design requires a feed ramp to allow the round to enter the chamber from the magazine.

3rd faulty statement by Stevens - "The compensator does a lot of work to get that pressure out of the barrel earlier so that the chamber pressure can drop to a point where it makes rational sense to begin unlocking the pistol."

A compensator, by it's design, re-directs the gasses to counter the recoil forces. Nothing in it's design lowers the pressure curve as it is not involved as long as the bullet is in the barrel, upstream from the compensator. Further, as the bullet passes the compensator, the pressure drops dramatically not because of the compensator but rather because of the fact that the barrel is no longer plugged with the bullet.

As to IllinoisCoyoteHunter's criticism of my post, I suggest he contact Kevin at KKM Precision. He's an expert barrel maker for many models including 1911s, Glocks, Beretta, Browning, S&W, FN, and Springfield. He is the manufacturer of the first Glock 45-10MM conversion barrel (at my direction) for the world's first ever Glock G20/21L which I developed in 2004.



I have been to his shop in Mound House, NV and talked to him about my G20/21L and we also discussed the possibility of the 460 Rowland in my custom pistol. He stated that the Glock simply doesn't have enough chamber wall thickness, even with his highest strength barrel steel, to safely contain the 40k PSI of the 460. Further, he showed my why most semi-autos can't handle that round either. He also showed me how no semi-auto barrel can have a completely supported chamber. In fact, it's his statement that I 'borrowed' when I indicated that converting a Glock G21 to a 460 Rowland, "... is to build a bomb you hold in your hand."

I stand by my statements as they are based upon an expert's personal experience. So IllinoisCoyoteHunter, before you run down another post, you might want to stop for a minute and consider what is written, whether you really do know what you're talking about, and maybe ask for for an explanation before you criticize. You might just find out that it's you who are wrong.

[IllinoisCoyoteHunter]

Well, we can agree to disagree.

The brass CAN handle that pressure, as 460 loads have been worked up in revolvers with no signs of pressure whatsoever.

Yes, semi auto barrels CAN be fully supported to the case web. I shoot ALOT of 10mm, which operates art the same presures as the 460. My aftermarket glock barrels give FULL support of the case, unlike the stock glock barrels, which I would never think about doing such a project with. Even in non-fully supported stock barrels, why do we not have brass failures in 10mm which operates at the same pressure as 460???

The only comment I MAY (I repeat MAY) consider valid is the point of chamber wall thickness. And this is why I have been researching different types of steel.

So, if there is NOT enough chamber wall thickness, how is Johnny Rowland safetly selling these kits for Glocks and Springfields...and even 1911s for that matter?? I would think that the barrels would be of the same construction and thickness, given they are drop-in installations????

Your OP offered nothing to the thread. It was just name calling with no evidence or facts. So, don't talk about me running you down, sir.

To load a 45acp case to 460 Roland pressure levels is to build a bomb you hold in your hand. This is hands down the stupidest thing I've ever seen contemplated on any gun site.

If you are stupid enough to try this don't be surprised if you lose the use of your shooting hand, your eyesight, and possibly your life.

[Sevens]

My handle is "Sevens", no "t" in there. I'm neither a gunsmith nor an engineer which I pointed out clearly in my post, and if what I posted was inaccurate, I appreciate your correction.

My buddy has a .460 Rowland with a barrel provided by Clark (actually, the entire pistol was provided by Clark) and it runs well. Beyond that, I don't know or understand the details, the things I said were how it seemed to me. I thought I made it clear that I don't understand what makes them tick.

I also stated early in the thread that I didn't think it was a good idea to half your way and shortcut something like a .460 Rowland and I would hope that any IDIOT that reads informal discussion on an internet forum isn't going to take something entered as absolute researched FACT and blow up himself, his home, his family and one corner of a county building things in his basement.

I will not be adding disclaimers to my posts regardless of how much you "fear" that something posted is going to lead to the end of the world.

[COSteve]

IllinoisCoyoteHunter - As the developer of the 45-10MM conversion barrel, I have a great deal of experience with it. Kevin made the barrel in cooperation with me, i.e. we developed it together. As such, I can tell you this. While you may think that your after market 10mm barrel is fully supporting your case, the fact is that it isn't. Your barrel has a feed ramp and that limits the support in that area no matter what you care to believe. My custom barrel in my G20/21L doesn't either, it's a simple fact of the design.

None of these barrels provide fully supported chambers. Some are better and some are worse but none are fully supporting the case.



While it does a better job, Jarvis' custom 6" 45acp barrel doesn't either even though it's considerably better than my stock Glock G21 barrel.



My custom (ss on right) Glock 24 barrel doesn't completely either but again it's a whole lot better than my stock Glock G22 and G23 barrels.



And my custom G20L barrel doesn't fully either (comparison of it to my stock Glock G22 barrel).



I have over 9,000rds of very hot, handloaded 10mm ammo through my custom G20L over the last 8 years. Most of it runs close to 1,600fps with 165grn Speer Gold Dots. Between Kevin and myself, I'm bettin' we know a ton more about this than you do, no matter what you care to think.

[IllinoisCoyoteHunter]

OK, you posted a bunch of pictures. Thanks. But what does that prove??? The barrels are obviously supporting the 40k psi 10mm cartridge? Why can't they handle the 40k psi 460 rowland???

So, I will ask the question you failed to answer.

If there is NOT enough chamber wall thickness, how is Johnny Rowland safetly selling these kits for Glocks and Springfields...and even 1911s for that matter?? I would think that the barrels would be of the same construction and thickness, given they are drop-in installations????

Since you know so much more about this than me, please answer the question.

Thanks!

[Clark]

I posted about 460 Rowland here on July 2000.
I did the work in May of 2000.
http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...311#post184311

Looks like I welded up the feed ramp of a P32 32acp in 2000.

Looks like I welded up the feed ramp of a glock 22 40sw in 2002
http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...311#post184311

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

Instead of working up to a case bulge, that allowed me to shoot more than double charges in 2002 in my Glock 22.
The problem with kabooms in Glocks was not the gun or the ammo, it was the case support all along.

From there I was able to measure the threshold of many cartridge case head failures.

The weakest cartridge commonly available to the strongest:
..Weakest: 10mm
..next weakest: 25acp
..next weakest: 7.62x39mm with large Boxer primer pocket

..The 1889 Mauser case head built with a large boxer primer has been used on many cartridges besides the 45acp ; 22-250, 243, 6mm Rem, 250 Savage, 257 Roberts, 25-06, 260 Rem, 6.5x55 [US made brass], 270, 7mm-08, 7x57mm, 280, 300Sav, 308, 7.62x51mm, 30-06, 8x57mm, 338F, 358, and 35W.

..The 1950 Win .222 case head is very strong, but will give up the primer

..The 1889 Mauser case head with small Boxer primer is so strong that the primer will always pierce before the primer pocket gets loose. 6mmBR handloaders get the firing pin bushed to try to increase that pressure with the CCI450 magnum small rifle primer.

..The rimmed cases are even stronger, like the 38 S&W, 30-30, or 45/70. They may primer pierce or flow into extractor misfit.

What does it all mean?
I have done a lot of experiments, and I know that the 45acp case head is very strong... to answer the OP's question, but it must have case support.
The other way is to cross section the case head and do a Von Misses calculation on the threshold.
It generally gives the same answer and Quickload's prediction of what the pressure was when the primer pocket yielded, in bottle neck cartridges. But in straight wall, QL is not so good.
I can design a test with strain gauge, Wheatstone bridge, instrumentation amplifier, and storage scope to measure the tangential barrel stretch as a function of chamber pressure. That is not a controlled experiment, because the Roark formula for stress vs strain on that complex open ended tube is not known and the variabilities of placing and bonding the strain gauge both add unknown errors. The actual pressure does not matter anyway, what is important is the effect of pressure. With strong guns, that means looking at the brass.

What does all that mean?
I have shot 460 Rowland loads many times with many brands of 45acp brass. The problems are recoil and case support, not the brass. The brass case head is plenty strong. It needs support on the thin case wall over the feed ramp.

[Edward429451]

If it's so unsafe for a 460R to be fired out of any auto pistol, why do they sell the kits and pistols?

When you see two intelligent men arguing over an issue such as this, you have to look at their individual perspective to see where they are coming from. That usually explains the different views. I see Steve was instrumental in developing the barrels or kits? I see ICH is an end user, home tinkerer, advanced reloader.

There you have it. Steve has a touch of the liability mindset, having worked commercially with the product. These guys have to assume that bubba will do the worst possible things to it and potentially bring hassle back to the company. So they used to saying no no no no no, don't do it.

It has to be possible or the kits wouldn't be on the market. It is entirely possible to tinker in the grey areas safely if one approaches it with common sense and patience in all ways. For any progress to occur, people have to dabble in the fringe areas. Elmer Keith was no bubba, yet he blew up a few guns.

So there's a potential problem area in doing this to an auto. Good point, be careful. That the 460R is a 40K psi cartridge, doesn't mean that it will be run at 40K constantly, that's the max loading. Obviously, the closer to max you are the more precautions are taken. ICH doesn't come across as a bubba. Steves cautions are valid to a point, but his position seems to not be able to account for anyone between a bubba, and a commercial operation who's position must be no liability. A shame in a way because it makes Steve appear a little arrogant about it.

Either way, I'm glad my 460R loads are only for a BH revolver. No case support issues there with Rugers tight chambers.

[IllinoisCoyoteHunter]

Very well put, and I will be the first to apologize to Steve for being rude. Sorry Steve for being a hot head.

I would like to thank everyone for all their input....Steve, this includes you!

Clark, I would especially like to thank you for taking the time to submit such informational posts. Wow!

I will keep eveyone abreast of this project as it materializes. Unfortunately, I still have lots of research and other financial obligations at the moment. It WILL happen, trust me.

Thanks again!!!

[bfoosh006]

Like so many have pointed out... the .45 ACP barrels do not offer enough support at the rear of the case. Loading .45 ACP brass to .460 pressures and firing them in an un-supprorted barrel is asking for problems. .460 Brass is much thicker at the base than .45 ACP. And as for the revolver fired .45 ACP loaded to .460 Rowland pressures... that is far different than a 1911.

No offense intended, do as you see fit. I was just trying to steer you away from an ill advised "idea". If your "idea" would work .... there would be no such thing as .460 Rowland brass.... since there would be no reason for it.

I've owned a .460 Rowland conversion kit for my Para Ordnance for well over a decade.

Again do as you see fit... you asked a few questions and we ( The Firing Line posters ) have answered with our advice.