Savage Muzzlerloaders?

[roger1shot]

Hi
My brother is thinking about buying a Savage Muzzlerloader either a 10ML Or a 10ML-ll.
What's the good and bad on these Savage Muzzlerloaders?
Thank's

[Brian Pfleuger]

The good is that they shoot smokeless powder, their accurate as hell without being cleaned after every shot and they have the accu-trigger.

The bad is.... Uh,..... Well,...

Somebody will have something on the bad side, I imagine.

[andrewstorm]

the only down side is that the atf is uneasy over the 110 ml being able to digest a healthy load of modern powder,also some states (mich)do not allow smokeless loads, but u can allways use blackhorn 209 ,777, whitehot,ect to push velociety past 2000fps,other magnum front stuffers are available ,some can take 4 777 pellets or 200 gr blackhorn 209 ,whatever u decide remember,buy american!

[Crosshair]

This info was acquired at the range from someone who owns one.

The only "bad" thing is that you have to be careful about how warm it gets. The sabots tend to not work so well in a warm gun and the smokeless powder tends to heat up the gun more than black after a few shots. Nothing dangerous, you will just get degraded accuracy.

Other than that they guy loved it.

[Pahoo]

Whenever I read an initial post, I try to address his or her specific questions, rather than listing my personal prejudices. My passion is in traditionals but promote all M/L's. Given that, the 10ML has many positives and to date, see no negatives as far as performance goes. I do not own one but have shot two at our range. However, if ones falls in my lap, it certainly will be welcomed. It's a hard loader, hard hitter and can be a hard kicker. Very well engineered and accurate. To date, I have not run into an owner that does not like them; on the contrary.

The only "bad" thing is that you have to be careful about how warm it gets. The sabots tend to not work so well in a warm gun and the smokeless powder tends to heat up the gun more than black after a few shots. Nothing dangerous, you will just get degraded accuracy.

Yes, this information has been published before and not well founded. There were problems with cheaper sabots due to hot loads and this can be reduced by the additiona of a bore button buffer.

Personally, the only bad thing I can come up with is that they are not as much fun to shoot, as my SideLocks ... JMHO ....


Be Safe !!!

[simonkenton]

the only down side is that the atf is uneasy over the 110 ml being able to digest a healthy load of modern powder

True, and not true.
The first Savage, the 10ML, was listed by ATF as a modern firearm, because ATF decided it was easy to convert to a cartridge shooting gun.
This was not true, but Savage modified the gun, and the new 10ML2 is, and always has been rated by ATF as a muzzleloader.
Not many 10MLs out there anyway, just another good reason to buy the ML2

I have had one of these rifles for 5 years and I love it.
The notion about the warm barrel causing inaccuracy is quite true, I'm afraid.
It is the only thing I dislike about the gun. On an 80 degree day you will wait 15 long minutes between shots, or your groups will go to crap.
There are some bore-cooling tricks, but, I just wait the 15 minutes.

Does this negate the gun's effectiveness for hunting?
Not at all. Any good hunter knows that the whole point is to make the first shot count. Also, hunting is usually done in cool weather, so if your barrel is 30 degrees to begin with, you can make a quick second shot and still be accurate.

This is a great rifle, accurate and fun to shoot, I really like it.

[FrontierGander]

The Bad,
http://picasaweb.google.com/tfprocte...11921237988674

[BigV]

The Bad,
http://picasaweb.google.com/tfprocte...11921237988674

Any additional information available other than the pictures?
I didn't see anything.
It would be nice to know the cause of the barrel exploding. Was there too much powder, double load or are these gun prone to this type of damage?

From the injuries I see in the picture, I would be very hesitant to to even fire one let alone own one if this is a common occurrence.

[simonkenton]

This story has been out for over a month.
This happened to a guy in Canada.

The Savage is built, and proofed to far higher pressure than any other muzzleloader. The factory tested a gun with a double powder charge and one bullet, and all they got was a slight bulge in the barrel.
I know lots of guys on the Savage forum who have 3,000, 4,000 and more rounds through their Savages with never a mishap.
This Canadian guy had less than 100 rounds through his rifle, ie, a Savage rookie.

Any rifle can and will blow up if there is too much smokeless powder, or if there is a bore obstruction.

The details of exactly what happened to cause this poor fellow's gun to blow have not been revealed.

I am not worried about my Savage, and will continue to shoot it regularly.

[Smokey 92]

Too much smokeless powder?

[FrontierGander]

heres some info on what could happen with the savage.
http://hpmuzzleloading.com/Alert.html

In truth, whenever a rifle, centerfire or muzzleloader, blows up, We will NEVER know the REAL story of what actually happened.

[simonkenton]

The guy at the hpmuzzleloading link is Toby Bridges.
Toby has a big time axe to grind against the Savage muzzleloader.
Toby used to be a rep for Savage, and he travelled the country putting on shooting exhibitions with the new smokeless muzzleloader.

In fact, on the internet, Toby talked me into buyng my Savage, 5 or 6 years ago. I exchanged quite a few emails with Toby, and I liked him.

Then, Toby started having problems with Savage and with the inventor of the rifle. He was maybe going to get fired, he was maybe going to sue, a big bunch of crap was going on, who knows what was the real deal, but there was some real bad blood of Toby vs Savage and Mr. Ball, the inventor.
Then, one of Toby's rifles blew up.

Well, this was one thing that was sure to damage the Savage company, their leading, but about-to-be-fired rep has a barrel blow. Curiously, nobody was hurt in that explosion.

This began a big debate in the Savage community, the pro Toby faction vs the anti Toby faction. It was a civil war.
I joined the anti Toby faction. We think he blew that barrel on purpose, and pulled the trigger with a 50 foot kite string.

Since that day, 5 years ago, I have not believed a thing Toby has had to say.
Yes he is a very knowledgable muzzleloader guy, knows a lot more than I do, but something real fishy about the whole Savage deal.

Anyway, this Canada deal looks legit, obviously that kid didn't do it on purpose, but he could have had a barrel obstruction, or way too much powder, who knows? I will keep up with this over on the Savage forum and if the real scoop ever comes out I will report it here.

[Crosshair]

+1. I wasn't going to bring up the Toby Bridges bit, but since it's here, don't believe anything he has to say about the Savage gun. That gun was blown up on purpose, no doubt about that to me.

[simonkenton]

Posted by BigV;

Any additional information available other than the pictures?
I didn't see anything.
It would be nice to know the cause of the barrel exploding. Was there too much powder, double load or are these gun prone to this type of damage?

From the injuries I see in the picture, I would be very hesitant to to even fire one let alone own one if this is a common occurrence.



On the thread about leaving a muzzleloader loaded long-term, you posted a quote from Randy Wakeman in which he said he would never do it, and you agreed with him wholeheartedly.

Randy Wakeman sells custom made Savage muzzleloaders. He loves them! Like me, he thinks Toby Bridges blew his up on purpose.
Google up what Randy has said about the safety of the Savage, he argues that it is the strongest and best-tested of any inline.

So, are you going to believe Randy on long term storage, but not believe him about the safety of the Savage?

On the other hand, Randy has gone on at length about how unsafe the CVA inline is. He says it is made in Spain, has not been properly proof-tested, and is not strong enough, and will blow up.
Randy has stories about CVA inlines that have blown up.
Yet, CVA sells inlines by the thousands, there are probably more CVA inlines out there, than there are Savages.

[Zhe Wiz]

I LOVE my ML2. It's the first and only muzzleloader I have ever owned. From all the research I did before I bought, and I did a LOT, and having owned it for a year, I have NO IDEA why anyone would NOT buy a Savage smokeless over ANY other muzzleloader. Well, I can think of three reasons:

1. Because of archaic laws, you can't use smokeless.
2. You are a purist. (to each his own, I want the best tool for the job)
3. Price. You can buy cheaper black powder muzzleloaders.

Cleaning is just about the same as a regular rifle, accuracy with a proven load is OUTSTANDING, the accutrigger feels great, and did I mention how easy it is to clean? If it weren't for smokeless, I'd probably skip the whole muzzleloader thing. Get it, you won't regret it!

Zhe Wiz

Tons of info about them here:
http://dougsmessageboards.proboards....oard=smokeless

[FrontierGander]

you dont need an accutrigger to get a sweet trigger. #2 reason, how well do the savages shoot full bore projectiles. How clean are they when you're shooting pyrodex/T7?

[Zhe Wiz]

you dont need an accutrigger to get a sweet trigger. #2 reason, how well do the savages shoot full bore projectiles. How clean are they when you're shooting pyrodex/T7?

Why would you want to shoot pyrodex/T7 out of a smokeless capable ML? I sure as heck wouldn't go near the stuff. And even if you did, the Savage is no worse to clean than any other muzzleloader. But you'd kill the greatest advantage of shooting smokeless. If you want to shoot a non-smokeless option, don't get the ML2! You're paying extra for no good reason.

Why would you want to shoot a full bore projectile? 45 cal. not big enough for you? I can't say how they shoot out of the Savage, never seen the need to do that either. Someone at Doug's message board has for sure. I've never read those posts, not interested.

Who said you needed an accutrigger to get a sweet trigger? I just said (as have others) that the Accutrigger is a great trigger. I KNOW there are other good triggers, I have a couple.

Zhe Wiz

[FrontierGander]

WHY?!!

Colorado does not allow Smokeless powder, must use open or iron sights only, full bore projectiles ONLY. Must be .50cal or large for elk,moose size game. The trigger on my cva accura is under 2lbs with zero creep or grit. Savage charges you an extra $100 for that.

[Zhe Wiz]

Colorado does not allow Smokeless powder...

Well there ya go. You fall under #1 above. You are not a good candidate for the Savage ML2.

Next!

Zhe Wiz

[FrontierGander]

legal or not, i wouldnt own one and shoot smokeless, i will save that for centerfire.

[Zhe Wiz]

legal or not, i wouldnt own one and shoot smokeless, i will save that for centerfire.

And again...why? You must like cleaning a lot better than I do. If I have to use a muzzleloader (and I do for the last 10 days of deer season here in NY) then I'm using smokeless. LOTS of advantages, NO disadvantages. Rifles are another subject altogether.

Zhe Wiz

[Brian Pfleuger]

Originally Posted by FrontierGander

legal or not, i wouldnt own one and shoot smokeless, i will save that for centerfire.

Well, I guess that's your choice. There's certainly no advantage to it. I can't say as I understand why anyone would not use the best equipment that they can get their hands on. There simply is no better ML than the Savage.

Of course, I don't understand the long bow and recurve guys either. The game is hard enough without handicapping myself.

[FrontierGander]

Hey my flinter goes 19 shots before i get tired and sore, my accura ive shots 6 times with no problems ( ran out of ammo) Cleaning is something that comes natural. For those of you that leave an expensive investment dirty after you're done playing... Shame on you!

I shoot both compound and recurve ( once in a great while) so no argument there. Both are fun to use. The compound just has more expensive stuff on it that will break.

[Zhe Wiz]

Hey my flinter goes 19 shots before i get tired and sore, my accura ive shots 6 times with no problems ( ran out of ammo) Cleaning is something that comes natural. For those of you that leave an expensive investment dirty after you're done playing... Shame on you!

And after all that, I *still* have no idea why you refuse to shoot smokeless.

Zhe Wiz

[Brian Pfleuger]

I shoot both compound and recurve ( once in a great while) so no argument there. Both are fun to use. The compound just has more expensive stuff on it that will break.

You sound like you have an irrationale fear of modern technology. If you truly believe that there is no advantage to the Savage ML and that the only difference between a compound and a recurve is that the compound is more likely to break... Well, I'm not sure what to say about that. No basis in reality at all, that's for sure.