December 17, 2005, 10:21 AM | #26 |
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.22-mag for carry
As you can tell by my log in name that is what I carry. I have other calibers at home but I chose to carry the 22-mag. Taurus 941-ultra lite with a rose wood grip. Any that thinks or feels the caliber is to small and WILL NOT stop a BG as stated in previous posts might want to vollenteer as live moving targets.
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December 17, 2005, 10:53 AM | #27 |
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My two carry guns are my kel-Tec .380 and my Taurus .22LR, I don't feel undergunned because I know I can hit what I'm aiming at. 9 rounds of .22LR Velocitors is gonna put a hurtin' on someone. Or 7 rounds of .380 Hydro-Shoks is even more lethal.
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December 18, 2005, 08:57 AM | #28 |
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22-mags for carry
Have a question for kymasabe about your kel-tec and the taurus. How are they to handel and how well do they shoot? Any problems so far? Im looking to up grade my 25 to either a 32acp or a 380 and no one around here has any rentals to see how they handel. Ant info would be appreciated. thanks
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December 18, 2005, 09:53 AM | #29 |
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I have two daughters. One likes to shoot and has little problem dealing with moderate recoiling guns. For her I bought a Smith Model 65. It is loaded with +P .38 125 gr. JHPs and she's pretty proficient with it.
The other daughter has never been into shooting and has always been overly sensitive to recoil. However, while attending law school in Toledo and living alone off campus, even she thought having a handgun for self-defense in her apartment would be prudent. I gave the matter a lot of thought before deciding on the eight shot capacity, steel, .22Mag. revolver from Taurus as a gift several Christmasses ago. She still has the little Taurus and is becoming more confident and proficient with it on the range. Yes, I'd like to see my "Taurus girl" step up to a gun with a bigger hole in the barrel as a self-defense, house gun eventually but, until she gets more comfortable with heavier recoiling guns, I think she's adequately armed with her eight-shot, .22 Magnum. In fact, I think it's exactly the right gun for her at this point in time.
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December 18, 2005, 10:40 AM | #30 |
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I believe it was Jerry Miculek who personally suggested to Smith&Wesson to produce an airweight .22mag recently; the new model 351pd is the result, it is very light at 10.6oz, as for performance Guns & Ammo Handguns recently did an article in the Oct/Nov 2005 issue here are the results, test gun for both 22lr & 22mag calibers was a 2" barrel NAA Black Widow with interchangable cylinders, test gun 25auto was Baby Browning 2.1" barrel, and test gun 25naa(32auto case necked down to 25 caliber) was NAA Guardian 2.185" barrel
22lr_____________________bullet_________velocity CCI Stinger______________32gr HP__________992 Remington Yellow Jacket___33gr HP__________952 Winchester Power Point____40gr HP__________835 CCI Sub Sonic____________40gr HP__________756 Remington Golden_________40gr HP__________822 CCI Velocitor_____________40gr GoldDotHP____871 22mag________bullet____________________velocity Remington V-max_________33gr V-max______1097 Winchester Supreme______34gr HP_________1076 CCI Maxi-Mag +V_________30gr HP_________1106 CCI Maxi-Mag____________30gr TNT HP_____1102 Remington_______________40gr HP__________987 Winchester Super-X_______40gr FMJ________1005 CCI Maxi-Mag____________50gr GoldDot HP___857 25auto___________bullet___________velocity Speer________35gr GoldDot HP________851 Wincheste____45gr Expanding Point_____805 Winchester_______50gr FMJ___________738 25naa___________bullet_____________velocity Cor-Bon_______35gr XTP HP___________1202 Best performance for penetration and expansion in 22lr was Winchester Power Point 40gr HP and Remington Yellow Jacket 33gr HP although most were unreliable, in 22mag the clear winner was CCI Maxi-Mag TNT HP which expanded like a premium self defense round every time with good penetration, none of the 25auto rounds would expand properly, and the 25naa performed reliable every time. |
December 18, 2005, 11:31 AM | #31 |
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Why?
Back when I was actively writting articles a friend borrowed my Chronograph to test the velocity/s on his recently acquired North American arms revolver. Interesting fact came out. The std. velocity 22 ammo got a higher velocity than the 22 mag.
A .22 in the hand beats the heck out of sharp stick or a large caliber gun at home. But if you want to carry a 22 get a small auto like the taurus or beretta and load it with Winchester Power Points, they have a really nasty hollow point. I personally carry a Taurus 44 Special or a 3 inch model 85 most of the time and I won't take up space with what else I have or have shot. |
December 18, 2005, 11:41 AM | #32 |
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How can you recommend an auto for a self-defense rimfire? I don't get it, you are accepting a much greater likely hood of having a misfire. A revolver doesn't have any more reliable ignition, but the problem is easily solved -- pull the trigger again.
I would have no problem with carrying a 22lr, but it will likely never be an auto if I expect to trust my life with it. |
December 18, 2005, 03:18 PM | #33 | |
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It is well known that handgun rounds of various ilk have failed to stop a BG. Thus, you can easily say that there are cases that a given round WILL NOT stop a BG. I can cite a case of a BG shot numerous times with a 223, even in COM, and had finally to be whacked on the noggin with the carbine. Having a volunteer stand in front? What does that prove? Who will volunteer to get shot? That's quite not the same issue as if in a fight the 22 Mag guarantees a stop as you imply. If you are implying that looking at a 351 would be intimidating - it probably would be as we know must DGUs are deterrent in nature. Let's be logical here. I think carrying a gun is better than naught. If someone did come at you, shooting them with a 22 Mag could quite possibly deter them in the sense they go away or even discombulated them so they fall down and go boom! If you were going to carry a J frame like the 351 - why not carry a 32 or 38? The NAAs make sense for their smallness in certain circumstances.
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December 18, 2005, 03:45 PM | #34 |
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I would recommend .22WMR for a kit gun, but not primary carry. I would use it if nothing else was available. So I guess the trick is having something else available.
That said, I really like .22WMR for lots of other things: target shooting, plinking, varmints or small game hunting if the opportunity presents itself. jmm |
December 20, 2005, 08:17 PM | #35 |
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. J frames or Taurus analogs - well, if you carry one of these - why not a 38 SPL or even the 32 HR mag. The gun price is equivalent.
2. The NAA minis - if it is a deep bug - then it makes sense. While as in the other 22 thread running - the gun has much utility but if you can do better, why not? Good post! This guy actually gets it! Why would anyone carry a smaller caliber in the same size gun! Wow! str1 |
August 14, 2008, 06:07 PM | #36 |
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22 mag for carry
Hi folks,I'm new to this forum and have to clear up some ideas about the 22 mag for carry.I have a Ruger P95 for a house gun along with 12 guage home defense pump.I also love to shoot a Taurus 970 Tracker in .22 LR for tons of fun.I have had this discussion many,many times over the years about the effectivness of the .22 Mag in a defense situation.I have owned and carried a flawlessly functioning Taurus 941 snubbie for a few years now and a long while ago i set about doing some backyard tests.What a 36 gn HP CCI Maxi mag does to what you shoot it into has to be seen to be believed.After reading this forum this last evening I decided to refresh my recollection of how well this round tears things up.So I soaked a hometown phone book and a Tampa phone book in water overnight.Today I set them on a stand and placed a fresh 1 inch piece of treated plywood in front of them.in front of a tree as backdrop.I fired 3 rounds from 6 feet.All three round absolutely blew through the board,both phone books and buried into the tree.The exit hole showed major disruption as the bullet exited.Man I would not want to get not one of these rounds blasted into my chest much less eight,which the cylinder holds. The notion that a .22 mag from a 2" barrel would do nothing but "Annoy" someone is laughable at least.The .22 mag is a potent close range defense round and so very easy to shoot and remain on target.It penetrated equally if not better than my Ruger useing 128 grain JHPs.I think some who quell useing the .22 mag as a defense round,have really not tested one themselves,for to do so is an eye opener for sure.
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August 14, 2008, 09:16 PM | #37 |
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Here are some facts from my chronograph:
Firearm__Barrel__Bullet__Grains__Velocity Ruger MK III__5 ½”__22 LR Bulk Federal HP__36 __1028 S&W 351PD__1 7/8”__CCI Maxi-Mag HP+V__30__1228 __CCI Maxi-Mag HV TMJ__40__1008 __Federal Game-Shok__50__834 I think the 351PD barrel needs to be longer. |
August 14, 2008, 10:17 PM | #38 | |
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August 14, 2008, 10:43 PM | #39 |
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Unregistered
I doubt he is going to respond, he hasn't made a post since June of 07. This thread has cobwebs on it.
Since its open though, I carry a .22 Mag mini revolver sometimes as a BUG, sometimes as a third gun. Its got enough penetration to reach the heart,spine and brain. I also have a Model 51 S&W, I don't carry it for defense, but it would work for SD.
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August 14, 2008, 10:59 PM | #40 |
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In a mousegun, I prefer the .25acp to the .22's primarily because I prefer the reliability of centerfire ammo to rimfire ammo. In a revolver, I prefer a .32 or .38 because the rimfire .22's frequently require a harsher trigger pull than do the centerfire .32's and .38's.
With that being said, if you shoot a .22 well and that's what you've got - that's a lot better than nothing. Better to shoot a .22 well than to shoot a .45 poorly. I do however much prefer centerfire to rimfire. |
August 15, 2008, 07:07 AM | #41 |
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Good post... & some pretty good replys...
only things I feel I can add... is ( for me ) total reliabilty is required for a CCW gun / ammo... ... & yes rim fire ammo has a higher incidence of misfire than good quality center fire ammo... I'd also be concerned about the flash & bang of the 22 mag ammo from a snubbie ( not actually stated as to be in use, but implyed ), as well as the loss of velocity out of the shorter barrel... the posted velocities from the short barrels were interesting ( thanks for posting them ) as for smaller caliber in the same size package... 5 - 38 special, 6 - 32 H&R, 8- 22 Mag ( I'm honestly not sure how many 22 mag S&W stuffs into thier J frame sized gun... but we have a J frame sized Taurus Tracker that holds 8 rounds )... 5 vrs 8... which is better /which is worse IMO, there is not a difinitive answer... as mentioned, I have in my carry collection, an air weight 2" barrel S&W J frame in 6 shot 32 H&R magnum... love the gun, & I guess I'd recommend it ( though it's a bit smaller than the bigger bores I prefer ), over the 4" stainless 8 shot Taurus Tracker that we keep in the bedroom for my wifes bedside gun... but only because the stainless gun is twice the weight of the S&W... if you can get a S&W in an air weight / lite revolver, with a 2" ( though again, I'd prefer at least a 3" with that cartridge ) barrel... that might make a fine choice... ... so to me... it comes down to reliability... good quality center fire ammo has a much better record at going off when the trigger is pulled than rim fire ammo... I would not carry a 22 Mag auto for this reason ( I can't think of many autos around other than the Automags, of which I have one ( a long barrel ), & my understanding is the shorter barrel models were often not reliable )... but is the rim fire cartridge reliable enough for you to trust your life with ??? you may only get one shot, to stop a serious threat, & if that round turns out to be the 1 in 100 ( or what ever that number actually turns out t be ) that misfires ??? can you live with that ??? I've yet to have a misfire with my 32 H&R, or with the 44 special ( my regular carry gun is an air lite S&W L frame in 44 special )... we keep the 22 mag revolver in the bedroom because we have several large aquariums in there, & I didn't want something with such concussion that it would shatter the aquariums... however it's been there long before I got my carry permit, & aquired the 32 mag & 44 specials which are likely better bedroom guns... the 32 even though it's listed as "H&R magnum" is much lower pressure cartridge in factory loadings than the 357 magnum, & it's more likely equal to the 38 special in energy, while not being quite as loud, & offering less recoil... IMO... its really more what the OP should be looking at... my 6 shot 32 H&R Magnum S&W J Frame air weight, & carry rig my Taurus stainless 4" barrel 8 shot 22 mag... just for comparasion...
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August 15, 2008, 07:40 AM | #42 |
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The 22mag cartridge is loaded with power designed to be fired in rifles. This slower burning powder is not suited for the shortest of barrels associated with concealed carry weapons. In my tests.....years ago....the 22 short out penetrated the 22 mag in cardboard....by about 60 percent. The guns were NAA 22 mag and beretta jetfire 22 short.
While many folks will say that the puny calibers will serve you well for "most" occasions (they are statistically correct) "most" is not all. Personally I decided to carry to protect myself and more importantly my family from bad guys. I can't do that to the fullest extent possible, given the limitations of concealed carry, with a puny caliber handgun. My choice of caliber is simple.....one that has the ability to consistently do what it takes to force a bad guy to stop the attack under the dynamic conditions of a gunfight/life&death struggle. Puny can force a stop but it needs optimal shot placement....something stats have shown is hard to get under life and death stress. Larger calibers that can defeat the skeleton and still get to the vitals are a better choice because they cover the full range of DGU's. |
August 15, 2008, 07:48 AM | #43 |
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BTW saying things like its better to have a 22 in the hand than a 45 on the dresser or a hit with the 22 is better than a miss with the 45 or a 22 that you can hit with vs a 45 that you can't ETC......is really silly. These are all statements design to justify carrying puny.
Of course shot placement is vital....for all calibers. Of course having a gun is vital to having a chance to win a gun fight. Of course being able to shoot your carry gun well is vital. With that said.... A 45 in the hand is better than a 22 in the hand. A hit with a 45 is better than an equally located hit with a 22. A 45 that you are able to shoot well is better than a 22 you can shoot well. And the best one A 45acp to the tear duct is better than a 22 to the tear duct. |
August 15, 2008, 08:17 AM | #44 |
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.22 Mag
"I'd like to see what the velocity numbers are for hot .22mag out of a 2" barrel, like the 351PD."
I, too, would be interested in seeing that data. When chronographing a number of .22LRs out of my S&W 317 2" bbl., I found that there was a point of diminishing returns. The "hyper" velocity rounds just did not produce hyper results from the short barrel. I wonder how much of the "magnum" power can be harnessed in a short-barreled gun. It'd be nice to know. Pete |
August 15, 2008, 04:51 PM | #45 |
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http://community.livejournal.com/guns/1281260.html
Here is some chrono data on the S&W 351PD 22 magnum. |
August 15, 2008, 11:29 PM | #46 |
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The 22 mag is loaded with genuine plated bullets is'nt it?
Unlike any 22 Long Rifle rounds which are largely just brass dipped,lead bullets . And it's more powerful then 22 long rifle rounds. And it's a more premium ammo round,that is to say unlike alot of 22 long rifle ammo,it's usually made to ammo specs reserved for rifle rounds-not cheap plinking ammo. So it should be more reliable firing than 22 long rifle. I think a 22 mag revolver would definitely give a bad guy a case of the ,"Looks like I made another bad decision" day. And it would be superlight to carry all day. For me below 380 caliber for self protection,gets to be a problem but hey,to each their own. |
August 16, 2008, 12:25 AM | #47 |
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Here we go again. .22 is a no-no for defense. Yes it can be lethal, but in all honesty anyone arguing for carrying one as a primary is just arguing for the sake or arguing. If you feel that strongly about it I challenge you to sell all the rest of your firearms and carry just a .22
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August 16, 2008, 04:04 AM | #48 |
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.25
"just arguing for the sake or arguing."
There's a lot of that. But there's also some useful data. I missed the velocity and energy comparisons posted in replies #30 and #37 my first time through the thread. That kind of info is helpful in understanding a particular cartridge's performance in the face of argument and in general. My chrono test data for the .25, for example, was much closer to factory spec. And the velocity data for the 50 grain .22 mag reinforced my understanding of what happens when we shoot magnum loads from short barrels but was still a surprise with 50 grain vels at 834 and 857 ( my lowly .25 chrono'd 758 with a 50gr.). I'd expected over 900 for the .22Mag. It's all part of the game. Pete |
August 17, 2008, 09:15 AM | #49 |
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"1. Is the .22 MAG a good choice for self-defense?"
To answer your question, no. Go with something like a 38 Spl, or 357 Magnum in a snubby revolver, 5 shot. Aside from that, yes, the 22 magnum develops a lot of energy because of its velocity, but you will lose some velocity in a snubby as compared to a rifle barrel. No doubt the lowly 22 LR and 22 mags will maim and kill, but as many have said, I believe there are much better options for self defense. I have a Ruger Single Six convertible and have shot some 22 mags and find them to be very effective on small game, however, I don't shoot many because of the cost compared to 22 LR. I might add that in those that I have fired, there have been no duds. They all went bang. |
August 17, 2008, 09:32 AM | #50 | |
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