Substituting one 230gr for another?

jon1163 · March 19, 2009, 06:16 PM

I usually load .45 230 gr TMJ RN remington bullets with 5.9 grains of unique.

I have some Hodgdon universal clays I'm trying to load up .45. My question is that the load I'm looking at (http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp) with this powder is for this bullet: 230 GR. HDY FMJ FP. So because they are both FMJ and both 230 gr can i just use this powder load for this bullet?

Starting/max grain for .45 with 230 gr hdy fmj fp is 5.1gr/5.6gr of h. universal.
I have a Speer reloading manual that says 230 gr TMJ RN with H. Universral is 5.5 gr to 6.3 gr start to max.

To put it in a nutshell does FMJ/TMJ of the same weight equal interchangeable regardless of the shape of the nose of the bullet? Or should I treat each bullet as a unique object in and of itself?

Thanks-
Jon-Seattle

ligonierbill · March 19, 2009, 06:46 PM

It is always a good idea to back off to a starting load and work up when you change bullets. Sure, they may end up the same, but it is not much of an inconvenience for peace of mind. If you have to ask...you already know the answer.

tiberius10721 · March 19, 2009, 06:49 PM

im looking at my lee reloading manual and for a 230 grain jacketed bullet using clays it gives min and max powder charges of 4.5 to 4.7 grains so a load using 5.9 seems kinda high.Me personally i would start at 4.5 grains.my lee manual also gives minimum oal of1.190.My manual is a 1996 edition so maybe the load data is kinda old but i would play it on the safe side.theres a big difference between 4.7 grains and 5.9 grains.

tiberius10721 · March 19, 2009, 06:51 PM

I think legioneer bill is giving good advise.play it safe!

Nnobby45 · March 19, 2009, 10:03 PM

Quote:

To put it in a nutshell does FMJ/TMJ of the same weight equal interchangeable regardless of the shape of the nose of the bullet? Or should I treat each bullet as a unique object in and of itself?

Different shapes put different amounts of bullet in contact with the bore. Copper jackets can vary in hardness. Pressure can be affected.

If you load down well below max, my chrongraph results down thru the years, indicate you don't have to worry about it. Whether it's plated or jacketed.

On the other hand, substituting, for example, Win. JHP for a hardball round will develop more pressure. I can speculate that it's because quite a bit more of the bullet is in contact with the bore because of the profile of the bullet, but be careful. A chrono will give you much information that you should be recording and learning from.

When, typically, a max charge for 230 HB is from 5.8 to 6.0 gr. of W231, I don't worry about the minor differences in different brands of with re: to profile, since I load 5.5 gr. and because HB can't be that much different.

jon1163 · March 20, 2009, 12:26 AM

Quote:

so a load using 5.9 seems kinda high.

5.9 of Unique not H. Universal. 5.9 of Unique is what my Speer manual says is the starting load. I used 4.5 grains of my H. Universal thinking it was Clays (it says clays in really big letters on the front) with 185 gr JHP and it was so low it wouldn't cycle the slide.

Dingoboyx · March 20, 2009, 02:20 AM

+1 LigonierBill

If you dont like (nasty) suprises always start lower if you change anything

Start safe, stay safe. You can always pull the slugs and put a little more powder in, you cant grow back a new hand

(or the guy beside you)

Muzza

**Unclenick** · March 20, 2009, 02:32 AM

Yup. Hodgdon Clays, International Clays, and Universal Clays are three different powders. I think there is enough confusion about that naming system they should drop "Clays" from all but the first one.

My rule of thumb is to reduce a Unique charge weight by 5% to get about the same peak pressure as the Unique charge got. But if you are working a load up, you'll want to start even lower and work up.

No, the bullets are not the same. The cause is that the nose shapes force you to use different seating depths with them to get a COL that feeds properly from a magazine and shoots reasonably well. The difference in the depth to which the base is seated changes the space the powder is burning in when it starts. Smaller space = higher pressure for a given bullet weight and powder charge. The thickenss of the jacket and other factors mentioned will affect it too.

Rule of thumb: Any time you change ANY component or the lot number it comes from, back your loads off 10% and work them back up.

jon1163 · March 20, 2009, 07:05 AM

So I have Universal Clays...the sixth one down on this page: http://www.hodgdon.com/shotpist.html

In my Speer book I am thinking this correlates to the powder "H. Universal". Is that correct?

Thanks everyone for all your help.

FM12 · March 21, 2009, 12:45 PM

I recommend the data by the bullet manufacturer, they're the ones that developed the load. NEVER assume anything in handloading when it comes to powder charges.

Doby45 · March 21, 2009, 05:06 PM

Yes, H. Universal would be Universal Clays. I got 4 pounds I have not started playing with cause I need to finish off my HS-6. Got about half a pound to go. :-)

Johnny Guest · March 29, 2009, 09:53 AM

There is frequently some differences in the max posted loads listed between the various manuals. Usually, this is pretty insignificant.

Please note, though: The TMJ stands for Total Metal Jacket(ed) and this is NOT the same as FMJ, or Full Metal Jacket. TMJ, meaning no exposed lead, is a plated bullet, of the type popularized by Ranier and Berry's, and which is the start of the process by which Speer makes their Gold Dot hollow point bullets.

The caliber .45 230 grain FMJ RN bullets from the various manufacturers are practically the same products - - A lead core encased in a thick gilding metal jacket. This jacket is far thicker and much harder than the plating on TMJ bullets. This means that an FMJ bullet will typically develop higher pressures with the same powder charge than the plated bullet.

You won't go wrong in using load data for cast lead bullets and plated bullets interchangeably. If loading toward the high end, though, you CAN get excessive pressures, if you put a hard-jacketed FMJ bullet over a load that is warm for a cast bullet.

Please note, too, that different configurations of JACKETED hollow point bullets have different bearing surfaces. A maximum load worked up for a JHP with a short bearing surfact may be too hot is a different bullet, with a long bearing surface is substituted.

jon1163 - - To address your specific question, one's best bet is always to go with the loading recommendations published by the bullet manufacturer. Also, the more complete manuals, such as the Lyman 48th Reloading Handbook, specify WHICH EXACT bullet they tested with which loads.

I shoot a lot of hand loaded .45 ACP in various guns: Colt's Government Model, National Match (pre-Gold Cup,) and alloy-framed Commander and Officers ACP. I use the same ammo in my Argentine Sistema 1927, an S&W 1917 revolver, and a Thompson SMG. For different purposes, I use cast, FMJ, plated, and occasionally swaged bullets. The cast and plated bullets are the only ones with which I use identical powder charges. I tend to use loads that are well under maximum for a given bullet. I see no use in increasing wear and tear on my firearms by use of anything approaching the maximum safe loads. My non-max loads are accurate and function reliably. For "social purposes," I stick with factory Gold Dot JHP or FMJRN. These are adequately powerful, and I see no need to "soup them up" by handloading.

Good luck to you.
Johnny

March 19, 2009, 06:16 PM	#1
jon1163 Junior Member Join Date: March 16, 2009 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 9	Substituting one 230gr for another? I usually load .45 230 gr TMJ RN remington bullets with 5.9 grains of unique. I have some Hodgdon universal clays I'm trying to load up .45. My question is that the load I'm looking at (http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp) with this powder is for this bullet: 230 GR. HDY FMJ FP. So because they are both FMJ and both 230 gr can i just use this powder load for this bullet? Starting/max grain for .45 with 230 gr hdy fmj fp is 5.1gr/5.6gr of h. universal. I have a Speer reloading manual that says 230 gr TMJ RN with H. Universral is 5.5 gr to 6.3 gr start to max. To put it in a nutshell does FMJ/TMJ of the same weight equal interchangeable regardless of the shape of the nose of the bullet? Or should I treat each bullet as a unique object in and of itself? Thanks- Jon-Seattle

March 20, 2009, 02:20 AM	#7
Dingoboyx Senior Member Join Date: March 7, 2009 Location: South East Queensland, Australia Posts: 1,513	+1 LigonierBill If you dont like (nasty) suprises always start lower if you change anything Start safe, stay safe. You can always pull the slugs and put a little more powder in, you cant grow back a new hand (or the guy beside you) Muzza __________________ Muzza If you cant blind them with brilliance, Baffle them with BS Be alert...... there is a shortage of LERTs

March 20, 2009, 02:32 AM	#8
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	Yup. Hodgdon Clays, International Clays, and Universal Clays are three different powders. I think there is enough confusion about that naming system they should drop "Clays" from all but the first one. My rule of thumb is to reduce a Unique charge weight by 5% to get about the same peak pressure as the Unique charge got. But if you are working a load up, you'll want to start even lower and work up. No, the bullets are not the same. The cause is that the nose shapes force you to use different seating depths with them to get a COL that feeds properly from a magazine and shoots reasonably well. The difference in the depth to which the base is seated changes the space the powder is burning in when it starts. Smaller space = higher pressure for a given bullet weight and powder charge. The thickenss of the jacket and other factors mentioned will affect it too. Rule of thumb: Any time you change ANY component or the lot number it comes from, back your loads off 10% and work them back up. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

March 29, 2009, 09:53 AM	#12
Johnny Guest Moderator in Memoriam Join Date: August 28, 1999 Location: North Texas Posts: 4,123	TMJ does NOT equal FMJ There is frequently some differences in the max posted loads listed between the various manuals. Usually, this is pretty insignificant. Please note, though: The TMJ stands for Total Metal Jacket(ed) and this is NOT the same as FMJ, or Full Metal Jacket. TMJ, meaning no exposed lead, is a plated bullet, of the type popularized by Ranier and Berry's, and which is the start of the process by which Speer makes their Gold Dot hollow point bullets. The caliber .45 230 grain FMJ RN bullets from the various manufacturers are practically the same products - - A lead core encased in a thick gilding metal jacket. This jacket is far thicker and much harder than the plating on TMJ bullets. This means that an FMJ bullet will typically develop higher pressures with the same powder charge than the plated bullet. You won't go wrong in using load data for cast lead bullets and plated bullets interchangeably. If loading toward the high end, though, you CAN get excessive pressures, if you put a hard-jacketed FMJ bullet over a load that is warm for a cast bullet. Please note, too, that different configurations of JACKETED hollow point bullets have different bearing surfaces. A maximum load worked up for a JHP with a short bearing surfact may be too hot is a different bullet, with a long bearing surface is substituted. jon1163 - - To address your specific question, one's best bet is always to go with the loading recommendations published by the bullet manufacturer. Also, the more complete manuals, such as the Lyman 48th Reloading Handbook, specify WHICH EXACT bullet they tested with which loads. I shoot a lot of hand loaded .45 ACP in various guns: Colt's Government Model, National Match (pre-Gold Cup,) and alloy-framed Commander and Officers ACP. I use the same ammo in my Argentine Sistema 1927, an S&W 1917 revolver, and a Thompson SMG. For different purposes, I use cast, FMJ, plated, and occasionally swaged bullets. The cast and plated bullets are the only ones with which I use identical powder charges. I tend to use loads that are well under maximum for a given bullet. I see no use in increasing wear and tear on my firearms by use of anything approaching the maximum safe loads. My non-max loads are accurate and function reliably. For "social purposes," I stick with factory Gold Dot JHP or FMJRN. These are adequately powerful, and I see no need to "soup them up" by handloading. Good luck to you. Johnny

March 19, 2009, 06:46 PM	#2
ligonierbill Senior Member Join Date: May 20, 2007 Posts: 2,456	It is always a good idea to back off to a starting load and work up when you change bullets. Sure, they may end up the same, but it is not much of an inconvenience for peace of mind. If you have to ask...you already know the answer.

March 19, 2009, 06:49 PM	#3
tiberius10721 Junior member Join Date: December 22, 2008 Posts: 228	im looking at my lee reloading manual and for a 230 grain jacketed bullet using clays it gives min and max powder charges of 4.5 to 4.7 grains so a load using 5.9 seems kinda high.Me personally i would start at 4.5 grains.my lee manual also gives minimum oal of1.190.My manual is a 1996 edition so maybe the load data is kinda old but i would play it on the safe side.theres a big difference between 4.7 grains and 5.9 grains.

March 19, 2009, 06:51 PM	#4
tiberius10721 Junior member Join Date: December 22, 2008 Posts: 228	I think legioneer bill is giving good advise.play it safe!

March 20, 2009, 07:05 AM	#9
jon1163 Junior Member Join Date: March 16, 2009 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 9	So I have Universal Clays...the sixth one down on this page: http://www.hodgdon.com/shotpist.html In my Speer book I am thinking this correlates to the powder "H. Universal". Is that correct? Thanks everyone for all your help.

March 21, 2009, 12:45 PM	#10
FM12 Senior Member Join Date: February 5, 2007 Location: Monroeville, Alabama Posts: 1,683	I recommend the data by the bullet manufacturer, they're the ones that developed the load. NEVER assume anything in handloading when it comes to powder charges.

March 21, 2009, 05:06 PM	#11
Doby45 Senior Member Join Date: January 19, 2009 Location: Powder Springs, GA Posts: 213	Yes, H. Universal would be Universal Clays. I got 4 pounds I have not started playing with cause I need to finish off my HS-6. Got about half a pound to go. :-)