Defective load ties up revolver.

[riddleofsteel]

Well it happened today.

After 22 years of reloading everything from .32 ACP's to 8mm Mag's I had my first defective round.

I loaded 100 rounds of .45 Colt ammo last night. It was one of my favorite loads for that cartridge, 8.5 grains of Unique under a 255 grain National Bullet Company SWC. As I was loading I noticed that the powder measure was throwing a pretty wide range of weights from 8 grains to 8.8 grains. I really thought about weighing each load or resorting to a dipper measure. I guess I was in a little hurry or just careless. I continued using the RCBS powder measure and weighing every third or fourth throw on a RCBS electric scale. I was visually looking to be sure there was powder in each round.

When I got to the range we set up one target and four 20 oz drink plastic bottles at about 25 feet. Using my S&W .45 Colt Mountain Gun I fired a six shoot group on the target about the size of a man's fist. So far so good, I then proceeded to shoot all four soda bottles off in the next five rounds. I fired the sixth round aimed at one of the bottles on the ground.

PSSSSSTTT

All I heard was the primer go off and the 255 grain SWC jammed tight between the cylinder and the forcing cone. Needless to say the cylinder would not open or turn. I had to insert a cleaning rod and bang the bullet back into the defective case. Thank God no damage to the shooter or the gun. But the other guys on the range all hussled over to see the process of clearing the jam.

Like I said in 22 years this was the first defective round I ever loaded. [I have fired two factory reloads that did not go off at all.]

I am sitting here wondering what really happened. I do not think the primer was bad because it did go off. I am thinking now a under sized squib load of powder went into the case. Maybe in my haste I saw powder in the case and did not notice how little powder it was. Just enough to drive the bullet into the forcing cone but not enough to push it into or down the barrel. That really scares me because squib loads have been blamed for BLOWING up guns. I guess I will weigh every load from now on or find a dipper that holds 8.5 grains of Unique.

p.s. I fired the rest of the loads without any other futher problems

[444]

I posted a while back about doing something similar to my new Model 27. I bought the gun from my local dealer. He told me he had about 500 .38 Special handloads and he didn't own a .38 or .357 and offered them to me. The previous weekend, we had fired some of these same loads out of a 2" Smith with no difficulty, however they were really light. We chronoed them at 400 something out of the 2" barrel. So, I stopped on the way home from the shop to try out my new treasure. I of course had no idea if it was sighted in or not so I took a few shots at some piece of junk lying in the desert. I didn't see where it was hitting, so I moved on to paper. I wasn't even on paper..................or so I thought. When I went to load the gun, I couldn't get the cylinder open. It was only then that I noticed that I had a bullet lodged between the cylinder and the barrel. That was the good news. The bad news was that I had a 6" barrel full of bullets. Driving them out wasn't an option. I tried one gimmick and managed to get two of them out. I called S&W and they gave me an unworkable solution and also told me that they no longer stocked parts for the old blue revolver. Ironically, I called the gunsmith I normally use and he told me he had a 6" Model 27 barrel on hand. So I sent the gun to him. He got the bullets out and said the only damage done was by me trying to get the bullets out. He said he shot the gun and the gouge in the barrel didn't seem to have any big effect on accuracy, but I had him install the new barrel anyway. An expensive lesson in what an idiot I am. I ended up shooting the rest of that ammo in my 4" GP100 without a problem. I assume that I either had a squib and blocked the barrel to the rest of the bullets, or the 6" barrel just provided too much friction to allow the bullet to exit the bore. They shot fine out of the 2" and 4" barrels. Maybe the bore was rough. Who knows ?
I had a squib in my Ruger PC9 carbine also. I fired a shot and it sounded perfectly normal. The second shot didn't. It was real, real loud. I knew right away what happened. I had two bullets in the bore. They came out without much effort and as far as I can tell, there was no damage done to the gun. That one, was one of my own handloads. I can't blame it on anyone else.

[Mike Irwin]

Generally, squib load detonations have only been reported with slower-burning powders such as 296 or H110. I don't think Unique would be a problem.

I'd be more concerned about why your measure was throwing weird loads.

I've never had a lot of success using a powder thrower with Unique, though.

[Cheapo]

Don't forget the granddaddy of them all, the 2.7 gr. bullseye under 147-gr wadcutter in .38 Special. IIRC, that's where the primer flash ignites the whole pile of powder="detonation" theory came from.

10 grains of Unique (okay, medium-speed) in .45-70 has a bit of a reputation, too. Seems the most verified part of that one is putting a ring in the chamber at the bullet base, in OLD rifles.

[Bill Adair]

Unique is not impossible to dispense accurately with a Uniflow, but it takes a little more effort.

At the top of the stroke (where the cavity is filling) I rap the measure handle three or four times very lightly against the stop.

This takes no more than a second longer, and once you get the rhythm going, it should keep your charges very consistent.

Bill

[riddleofsteel]

Thanks guys I appreciate the advice.

[cheygriz]

My adsvice is to take the simple way out.

Get a Dillon 650 reloader, and the powder check station will beep if your charge is off. I think that if I had to weigh every charge, I'd stop reloading. With the Dillon, I weigh a charge every 100 rounds.

Also, this metering problem is one of the reasons that I stopped using Unique. Hodgdon Universal is very similar in performance, and meters perfectly.

[bfoster]

Cheapo,

If memory serves, as a result of reports of a number of blown up revolvers back in the late 1970’s or early 1980's, Remington undertook a study of Bullseye loaded under wadcutters in the .38 Special. Charge weight was kept constant at 3.0 grains, a maximum load for the standard .38 Special wadcutter. Loaded normally, pressure is about 16,000 psi. Loaded to simulate bullet setback of 1/8", pressure increased to over 25,000 psi. Loaded to simulate bullet setback of ¼", pressure increased to over 40,000 psi. With the wadcutter "bottomed", pressure ran to 90,000 psi. Needless to say, current Remington 38 Special. wadcutter ammunition features a cannelure.

One small commercial reloading company I work with from time to time ran a test that may be of interest. Using wadcutters, a non canister propellent having a medium fast burning rate, and .38 Special cases a reproducible variation of almost 200 fps was observed during chronograph testing simply due to the position of the powder within the case. This phenomenon has been reported here & there in the past, often when Unique is the powder used (~3.5 grains), but I've never seen any published data concerning pressure. Tests I ran last summer showed up to 4000 psi (M43) variance due to powder position within the case, but I was unable to produce detonation.

Oddly enough, I’ve examined a Marlin 1895 in 45-70 that let go. The rifle was almost new when this happened in 1999.The barrel failure apparently originated about an 1 1/2 inches forward of where the base of the bullet was seated in the cartridge case. The powder used was Unique, the charge weight used has not been published since the 1930’s. When this load works right, pressures are safe. The trouble is, there have been problems over the years. The rifle was being used to shoot targets, a barrel obstruction can be ruled out because of bullet hole count. A double charge, while possible, is to my mind doubtful. The gent that owned this rifle has been loading for well over 40 years, and is careful. He stated that he had examined the powder drops before seating the bullets. I believe that he is honest: he’d have said something if there was any doubt in his mind.

Doubtless, differences in ignition do occur. However, I’ve never seen a satisfying explanation of why the rate at which the propellant evolves the flammable gas that actually burns should so markedly change due to “flashover”. A century ago the French chemist Berthelot demonstrated that within a long narrow closed caloimetric bomb powder position does indeed have a great effect on the pressure developed at various points along the length of the cylinder. The amount of deformation of crushers mounted at multiple points along the length of this bomb can be closely correlated with powder position if it is observed that when a pressure front hits the end of the vessel it will rebound. Collision with a pressure wave that has rebounded from the other end of the vessel produces enormous localized pressures. Another way of putting this is that the highest pressures occur when the waves are in phase, lower pressures occur when they are not. I suspect, but do not know, that something like this is at least part of the cause in the 45-70 loaded with light charges of Unique kb’s.

Bob

[Bill Adair]

Bob,

Interesting information. Do you know if a report was ever published on the Remington tests?

This brings to mind my first experience reloading Hornady 38 Special HBWC bullets, in new Starline brass.

Having read several reports of new brass being the proper size for loading, I made the mistake of reloading new cases without sizing them first. NEVER AGAIN! They were expanded and belled as usual, and the bullet properly roll crimped over the front edge of the bullets.

The resulting cartridges were packaged in Midway plastic cartridge boxes, one of which was accidentally pushed off a short coffee table, and landed upside down (bullets up) on the vinyl floor. The plastic box cracked, and in transferring the cartridges to a new box, I noted that several bullets were set back slightly from the crimped rim. I didn't measure the set back, but estimate it to be no more than 1/16th inch. Checking other cartridges from that batch revealed that the bullets could be set back a similar amount, by tapping the cartridge base against a table top.

At the range, I loaded the first cylinder full, fired one round, and inspected the remaining bullets for set back, fired another, etc. I repeated this several times using twenty or so rounds, and never observed any set back from recoil.

After reading your report of the Remington/Bullseye tests, I'm very thankful that I used Win 231 powder, and a light charge as well!

dB

[bfoster]

Bill,

This was fairly widely publicized at the time. I'm sure that it was written up. Rather than look through stacks of old gun rags in the (sweltering) attic, (to say nothing about the 83 articles that will catch my fancy as I look and thus "waste" an evening) I'll take the lazy man's way out and post a link to an article by Paco Kelly that refers to this:

Paco Kelly go to near the bottom of this page, look for the back issues page, then look for the 38 Special article, and download it. Sorry about the mess, there is a permission problem in creating a direct link with that server to that page.

There is a way around this for anyone that is interested. Simply roll a cannelure on your brass. CH4d makes a very reasonably priced tool that works very well (if I recall I had to add a washer to get the unit to roll a groove just where I wanted, but its no big deal).

Bob

[Bill Adair]

Bob,

Thanks for the link.

After reading the 38 Special article, I spent at least another hour reading other archive files.

Paco has a relaxed and enjoyable writing style, sown liberally with amusing tidbits, to hold your interest. Lots of great stuff there.

I've visited the sixgunner.com site a few times, but still haven't read everything there!

Resizing my new cases completely solved the set back problem, but I don't really like handling the HBWC bullets, because it's hard to feel which end is up when reloading.

My next purchase will be some of the Oregon Trail DEWC bullets, which have crimp grooves at both ends. You can load them either way, and they should work just a well in my S&W 38 Specials.

Bill