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Old April 4, 2006, 02:29 AM   #1
Vinagre
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What am I doing wrong (w/1860 Army Colt)

I recently purchased an 1860 Army (A. Uberti) Colt .44. Seems that it misfires more often than not. I generally have to try each cap twice and on the second effort it always fires. I Started with #11's then shifted to #10"s, seems to make no difference. I thought that the wedge was not in far enough and this was creating to much space on the rear side of the cylinder but when I put the wedge in until just before the cylinder starts to bind it makes no difference so I'm not sure that was a problem. I do check for bits of caps that have fallen in front of the hammer mechanism and flick them out when that happens so that isn't the problem either. I run a pick in the nipples prior to each use and fire a cap initially to clear out the nipples before loading up and commencing (trying) to shoot. I must be overlooking something or these rigs where not to be relied upon by orginal users in the ole days. Any thoughts, advice would be greatly appreciated. It's a real fun rig when it works but I'm not sure if all the post cleanup is worht the agravation, Thanks in advance...
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Old April 4, 2006, 05:01 AM   #2
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Did you purchase it new or used? There have been some instances of people buying used guns that have been dry fired and the nipples ruined. Take a good look at the nipples to see if they have been peened in. If not, there is a possibility that the hammer strike angle is wrong. If the angle the hammer strikes at is too large, you'll get inconsistent ignition. To test this, cap a nipple and put some grease on the face of the hammer. Then lower the hammer slowly onto the cap and let it rest. Now inspect the cap, is there grease all over the cap or is it a little half moon shape? If it's a half moon, your hammer strikes at too great an angle to give consistent ignition.
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Old April 4, 2006, 09:00 AM   #3
Steve499
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If you are getting ignition on the second hammer strike consistently, that tells me the caps aren't seating fully when you put them on. It could well be as Low Key said, the angle being wrong would require a first blow to form the cap to the nipple so the second blow can ignite it. It can also happen if the nipples are battered, the flared tips keeping the cap from fully seating. Much less likely is a weak hammer spring.

At any rate, these pistols give nothing up to modern guns in any area except that they are really, really, really dirty and fragrant. If you aren't having reliable ignition, it's not normal and is fixable.

Steve
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Old April 4, 2006, 12:50 PM   #4
Vinagre
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Gents,

Good morning and thank you for your feedback. I purchased the gun new via Taylor. I have shot 80 rounds through it so far (20 balls left in my first box which I am still working on honey-do-list permitting). I have religiously not dry fired the gun based on the advice of expierenced owners regarding how not to damage the nipples. I went ahead as you suggested and inspected each nipple however and all seem to be in new condition (no peening or disfigurement that I can see).

Given the newness of the gun I don't suspect a weak spring, is that a common problem?

I then checked the hammer's strike angle, twice actually, using Low Key's grease method. The first time w/Crisco and it appreared to be fairly well distributed across the cap's face though hard to see, the second check was with a mixture of bee's wax and neatsfoot oil that I cooked up and it even lifted the cap off the nipple when I drew the hammer back after seating it. On that try it also appeared to have left no 1/2 moons. The reason for the 2 trys is the Crisco was sort of hard to see and the other mixture isn't quite as clear and somewhat easier to see on the cap. I used a #11 CCI cap, which is the recommended cap as per A. Uberti's literature, both times.

Should the cap have lifted off the nipple so easily as it did the 2nd time? I have another round of nipples but given that it missfires on all of the existing ones most of the time I think that fact points to something other than the nipples themselves. I suspect the #10 fits alittle tighter than the #11"s, correct? I have found myslf having to give them a shove with a hardwood dowel sometimes to seat them (or what appears to be seated). I have a straight line capper but using my fingers seems to be easier so I sort of put it aside.

I am in agreement with Steve on the gun not giving anything up to a modern handgun (other than the smoke and mess). When it does work it is just as accurate at 50 ft as my S&W Mdl 39 and even more so than my Springfield 1911A1. It shoots high and slightly to the left but after that was obvious I adjusted my aiming point and the rounds are right dead center for the most part.

Any other advice as to how to cure this ailment? Taylor, from what I have read, will ensure owner satisfaction, I am just hoping to avoid having to mail it back (and forth) as I work overseas and am home on a 2 month vacation and would rather be out shooting than waiting for the UPS truck. Thanks again, most appreciated...

R/John
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Old April 4, 2006, 01:16 PM   #5
Low Key
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Hmmm...
Seems like you've covered the most obvious cause of ignition problems. How hard is it to cock the hammer? Is it really easy to cock or does it take a bit of force to get it all the way to full cock? CCI makes their caps a bit thicker then Remington and it takes a good strike to set them off. If the hammer draw seems a bit light, try tightening the tension on the mainspring in the grip...there should be a screw that puts more tension on the spring. After you've ramped that up a bit, try a few shots and see if you still have the problem.
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Old April 4, 2006, 03:53 PM   #6
Steve499
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You might try backing the nipples out a turn or so to decrease the distance to the hammer and see if that ignites the caps better.Thats only for diagnostic purposes with empty chambers. I suppose you could shim them out a little if it shoots better like that. You might also try some different brands of caps. I had a pistol which the hammer rubbed on the left side of the hammer cut. I sent that one back for that and a multitude of other reasons, but something like that can decrease the hammer strike enough to cause problems.

Steve
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Old April 4, 2006, 04:46 PM   #7
tatso7
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could it be that the cylinder moved forward when you cocked the hammer ?
checked the clearance between the cylinder and the barrel theirs a possibility that the cylinder is not setted properly.

My friend has the same problem with his 1851 colt. He said its bound to happen on open top revolvers.
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Old April 4, 2006, 05:25 PM   #8
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"CCI makes their caps a bit thicker then Remington and it takes a good strike to set them off. If ..."

Mine will fire every time with remington primers but misfires more often than not with CCI.
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Old April 5, 2006, 02:11 AM   #9
gmatov
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Vinagre,

Have you tried to use feeler guages in front of the cylinder? If, at rest, you have X gap, but cocked top fire, you have X plus 15 thousandths gap, you have too much cylinder travel, the hand spring is pushing the cylinder so far forward you cannot get reliable ignition.

The hammer SHOULD hit the cones when you try to dry fire, though you should not do so. As you know, mashes the cones. If you have so much clearance that the cylinder puts the cones and caps out of reach of the hammer, well, so much for Uberti being superior.

The other is the main spring is too weak, or the screw is loose, to make it less tensioned.

There are them who are trimming the nipples to get a thou or so clearance, hammer to nipple, to be able to dry fire. I don't think that is you, as you have a new pistol.

Should shoot well, out of the box. Should at least SHOOT, out of the box, whether you can hit the target is up to where it shoots, and how you regulate it. You CAN regulate it, bring it on target.

If it doesn't, back it should go.

Cheers,

George
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Old April 5, 2006, 03:01 AM   #10
ChuckD
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Cosidering what you have checked--Buy several brands of caps to see what seats properly, by firing with caps only. A #10 in one brand may fit tighter than a #10 in another. On my rifles, I frequently have to slightly file around the nipple, as I like RWS caps, which fit my hotshot nipples too tight to seat properly. I hunt elk and deer both with my muzzleloaders--and must not ever have a misfire! I am a muzzleloader rifle instructor at a range, and see this problem fairly frequently--its usually just a matter of matching the right cap to the right nipple. Best of luck....ChuckD By the way--nipples are not expensive---get the best!
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Old April 6, 2006, 02:28 AM   #11
Vinagre
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Gents,

Good evening and again, many thanks for all the great feedback and suggestions, most appreciated.

The gap at the front of the cylinder is .003 uncocked and cocked it is to snug for any of my gauges. That the caps all fire on the 2nd try though suggest to me the hammer is hitting the nipples well enough though.

As far as how tight the mainspring is, it isn't soft nor super hard but not having anything else to compare the hammer's draw with it's a subjective test I guess. I'll say it isn't wimpy and leave it at that.... The only screw is the one anchoring the foot of the spring and it is snug so unless I am not seeing something the tension cannot be adjusted.

At this stage I am inclined to agree with the consensus relating to trying a different brand of caps. I picked up some #10 Remingtons today (the one store I stopped at had no #11's). Tomorrow I try another for some #11 Remingtons and hopefully the rains will have stopped as the range is up a hill with a dirt road which kept me at home today. Popping just caps in the backyard will go over no better than using the kitchen sink for cleaning up the rig after the first shooting did with my better half so I need to do my testing at the range tomorrow or the next day.

I'll let you know how the other brand of caps fare and again, many thanks for all your feedback. This is a really fine forum here with great folks offering up valuable expierence and knowledge.

Regards........................................John
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Old April 6, 2006, 06:38 AM   #12
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You got it on the 10's vs 11's...if they fire only on the 2nd time with 10's go to 11's Rem or CCI... I think the Remington caps run a hair larger than CCI so you can even kinda go in between. Or you can Get all Ampco or Treso coes/nipples in 10's or 11's. I jus' keep both caps on hand...
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Old April 6, 2006, 06:55 AM   #13
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Also there is a # 1075 cap out there that might be what you need. Don't know how readily available they are, but I know they exist. if you have the cylinder out of the pistol you can see real well if the caps are seating. Set the cylinder face doen, (Nipples Up) and then put caps on one or two nipplesand seat me with your finger, then pick up the cylinder to see if the cap is seated. if it looks like they are a 1/16 or 1/32 high(per height of a bare nipple) then they are toosmal. if they slid on an seat with what looks lik the thickness of the cap and are snup they are a good fit. If they slide on bottom and are loose on the nipple, then they are too big. I have three cylinders that I use Two are Euroarms and one is Uberti. .....Yep two take # 10's and One takes #11's that is a hassle trying to remember which is which, so I'll change the one out to match the other two.
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Old April 6, 2006, 08:54 AM   #14
Wayner
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I think I would have hammer seated the caps since pushing on the caps with the hammer seats them real well.(gently rest the hammer on the cap and use your thumb to push the hammer to seat the cap.
If you watch then you'll see if the cap moves and that will tell ya if the caps are seated fully or not) Point down range when ya do it though.
After your're sure the caps are fully seated and that variable is out of the way then you can test other possible causes for the anomaly.
I bet your caps just aren't seating all the way since you probably aren't using anything to seat them. A wood dowell can be used. Or a brass rod or a fiber glass rod or ect. ect. Since the hammer is there already you may as well use it at first to see if the caps are fully seated when you first put them on and push a little with your finger.
I'd rather use the hammer to seat caps since the cap can go off when it's seated on rare occasions. It hurts if you're pushing on a cap with a finger and it ignites with a load in the chamber.
After you have determined if the caps are seating or not then the next thing is to come on here to get the next step in the scrutinizing proceedure.
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Old April 7, 2006, 01:47 AM   #15
Vinagre
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"Mine will fire every time with remington primers but misfires more often than not with CCI." MEC

Gentlemen,

I am happy to be able to report that as with MEC's pistol, mine fired today with Remington #10's every time, no problemo. As many noted, some caps and nipples apparently are better matches than other. I used 2 different cylinders and not a problem with either so I'm a Remington user from here on out. Had a blast and came home with a big smile

Many thanks to all for your assistance and suggestions which I am sure kept the head scratching to a minimum the past few days.

Regards..............................................John
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Old April 7, 2006, 05:04 AM   #16
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I'm glad you got it working John! It's much more fun when the gun fires like it's supposed to!
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Old May 8, 2006, 08:52 AM   #17
Wayner
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If you have a gun that fires seated Rem caps but not seated CCI caps then something is amiss.I'm not talkin CCI magnum caps but regular. hee hee The gun may need some slicking up of the parts and the frame they rub against. The hammer especially. Since having a spare mainspring is a good thing I think getting a new spring or two and trying thewm wouldn't hurt anything. May be albe to compare the strength of the springs and pick the toughest one and use it to see what happens.
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