Felt recoil revolver vs. auto pistol

[stubbicatt]

Had a pleasant day in the National Forest yesterday shooting at clays on the berm, 35 - 40 yards away. Shot 45 ACP revolver and 1911 pistol, same ammo in both. Both steel firearms, no alloy frames or the like.

I noticed a perceptible reduction in recoil shooting the 1911. I wouldn't have thought that it would be as noticeable.

I have not weighed them, there may be a difference in weight.

Thought I would share my experience.

[44 AMP]

The weight difference depends on which .45 revolver you are using. A quick check of an old book, tells me that an N frame S&W (6") can be 4-5 ounces heavier than a standard Colt Govt Model (1911A1).

A 4" med frame gun (S&W M19) is about 5 ounces lighter. A Ruger Blackhawk (7.5" barrel) weighs the same as a 1911, although the balance is much different.

The size, and shape of the grip make a big difference in how one "feels" the recoil. Also, the "spread out" nature of the auto pistol recoil makes a big difference, too. In an auto pistol, the moving mass of the slide changes the feel a lot, compared to a revolver.

Also, the height of the bore axis over the grip makes a big difference, too. Revolvers place the hand further below the bore than autos, and while the recoil energy of the round may be identical, the effect on the gun (muzzle flip) is significantly different, even when all other factors are the same.

Shooting .45ACP from a 1911 and from a 7.5" Ruger Blackhawk is an interesting comparison. Both guns are about the same weight. Both fire the same ammo. But the Blackhawk, to me, recoils less. Your experience might be just the opposite.

My opinion might be colored by the fact that I rarely shoot .45ACP from my Ruger, its diet consists almost exclusively of .45 Colt, a 250gr SWC at 1100fps (handload). SO, by comparison, .45ACP in the same gun has a lot less felt recoil. Not quite bunny phart loads, but it feels like there isn't much there, compared to what I am used to, in that gun.

[g.willikers]

If you tried another brand of auto, the results might be different.
1911s are obviously designed for shooting, or they wouldn't still be so popular, especially among the competition folks.

[Brian Pfleuger]

All else being equal, a semi-auto will, by the very laws of physics, have less recoil than a revolver.
It has to... some of the momentum that would otherwise be recoil is instead moving the slide.
Of course, all else is rarely equal.

I can tell you that my Glock 33 (.357sig) shooting truly max loads, 125gr at 1350+fps from a 3.46" barrel, has less recoil than a Ruger Security Six 4" shooting factory Speer 357mag SD ammo. The Glock weighs 6-12oz less too.
Grip size/angle/width has a significant effect too.

[JeffK]

All other things being equal (they never are...), physics says force (against your arm) equals the change in the gun's momentum times the time over which it changes. For equal gun masses firing identical ammo, the momentum change is the same, so the difference is the time. A semiauto has a big spring that soaks up the momentum and spreads it out over time as it compresses, while a normal revolver has nothing but the solid frame, so the revolver will **tend** to feel like it kicks more. But there are so many other factors, many of them subjective, that I'm not sure there is an answer - depends what you think when you fire the guns. Just thought I'd add the physics perspective. :-)

[chris in va]

It's like a bolt action rifle vs semiauto. I have no problem with my Garand, while a bolt 30-06 leaves quite a welt after a few rounds.

[Oruglock]

All other things being equal (they never are...), physics says force (against your arm) equals the change in the gun's momentum times the time over which it changes. For equal gun masses firing identical ammo, the momentum change is the same, so the difference is the time. A semiauto has a big spring that soaks up the momentum and spreads it out over time as it compresses, while a normal revolver has nothing but the solid frame, so the revolver will **tend** to feel like it kicks more. But there are so many other factors, many of them subjective, that I'm not sure there is an answer - depends what you think when you fire the guns. Just thought I'd add the physics perspective. :-)

There's also muzzle lift to consider. I'm a great deal more inconvenienced by muzzle lift than pure recoil.

[Hammerhead]

To me, a big but light auto like a USP 45 or Glock 21 has much less felt recoil than any .45 Colt revolver shooting similar loads.

[gunslinger2000]

Most of you are on the right track. The energy of the bullet is mass times velocity. By the first law of physics the recoil energy equals the bullet energy for both guns. The recoil energy is simply dissipated over a longer period of time so feels less. Also, since the gun is heavier than the bullet, the recoil velocity is lower. gunslinger

[Brian Pfleuger]

Originally Posted by gunslinger2000

Most of you are on the right track. The energy of the bullet is mass times velocity. By the first law of physics the recoil energy equals the bullet energy for both guns. The recoil energy is simply dissipated over a longer period of time so feels less. Also, since the gun is heavier than the bullet, the recoil velocity is lower. gunslinger

Momentum is mass times velocity, not energy. It is momentum that is responsible for recoil.

It's not the first law of physics either. They are the three laws of motion and it's basically all 3 laws that relate to recoil.

[jmr40]

All else being equal, a semi-auto will, by the very laws of physics, have less recoil than a revolver.

The measured recoil will be the same. The fact that the recoil spring spreads that recoil out over a longer time frame certainly makes it FEEL like it is less

To me, a big but light auto like a USP 45 or Glock 21 has much less felt recoil than any .45 Colt revolver shooting similar loads.

Not any recent experience with a HK, but my G-21 is considerably softer shooting than my 1911's. In addition to the recoil action spreading the recoil out over a longer time period, there is far more grip material in contact with my hand. Spreading the recoil out over a larger area rather than concentrating it in one spot.

If you actually calculate recoil there is a complex math formula involving

projectile weight
powder charge weight
firearm weight
projectile velocity.

Rather than doing the math data can be plugged in here.

http://www.handloads.com/calc/recoil.asp

This does not calculate how you feel it though.

[pete2]

my 4" 625 feels like it kicks more than a steel 1911. I have a lightweight Commander, it may be on a par with the 625. I shot in an IDPA classifier, 90 rounds of 225gr. and the Commander was working on me on stage 3. I usually shoot 200gr RN in the 625 and that would make a difference too. The 200 gr in the steel 1911 are pleasant.

[ballardw]

Felt recoil in my collection is greatest in that awesomely powerful cartridge: .32 ACP.
The Kel-tec P32 is very light and very skinny so the recoil is concentrated on a small area. My experience with this one says I'm not going to look at the polymer .380 or 9mm subcompacts.

I am comparing this with .357 and .l41 full power magnum loads, which are fired from much larger, heavier revolvers.

[loose_holster_dan]

only scanned a few of the posts, so i'm not sure if anyone else mentioned this, but in addition to the moving slide with a spring eating up some of the recoil, the direction of recoil is also a little different. while both styles have some muzzle flip, the grip angle and somewhat lower bore axis on a semi auto tends to push the recoil a little straighter back into the shooters hand rather than radially shift it upward. a gun that "leaps" upward has higher perceived recoil.

[Guv]

The movement of the slide bothered my wife to the point of not wanting to shoot a semi. For me, if we are talking service type calibers I have never really noticed enough difference between them to matter to me, auto or revolver. Full power 357's in small frames change everything though, for me.

[JeffK]

Squeezing off five .357 magnum rounds from my M&P340 leaves me wantin' to just put the gun down and soak my entire forearm in ice water... Extremely nasty sharp kick.

[gunslinger2000]

I wonder if anyone here has tried to use the ballistic pendulum approach to measure recoil? I don't have a revolver and semi-auto that shoot the same shell do I could do a direct comparison. Would be interested in some actual experimental results. gunslinger

[gunslinger2000]

I forgot, I have a 1911 clone and a 1917 revolver but I don't have any place to try it with them. lol

[Buzzcook]

I haven't seen anyone mention the barrel being higher in a revolver.
The shape of the grip is also important. The typical plow shape grip of the revolver is not as easy to hold as the 1911. That's doubly so if you have to use a little finger under the grip hold.

[45_auto]

Originally Posted by buzzcook

I haven't seen anyone mention the barrel being higher in a revolver.

You should read post #2. What you're referring to is called "bore axis height".

[skoro]

The most valid comparison I can make is my 9mm KT PF-9 vs S&W 642 in 38spl.

Both are compact lightweights in comparable calibers. I've read online complaints on the sharp recoil from the PF-9. My own experience is that while it's noticeable, it isn't particularly bothersome. The 642 with stout 38+P ammo is a hand punisher, though. Firing Buffalo Bore FBI loads from this little snub is no fun at all.

[44 AMP]

Here's another thing, one seldom thought of, but possibly making a difference in the "feel" (but not the energy). In a semi auto, other than the last round, you also have the force of the slide going forward.

We all have felt that little "jar" in the hand when letting the slide run shut. That force is opposite the direction of recoil, and happens when the gun is still recoiling in our hands, so it has to have some effect on the perceived feel in the hand.

And its all about feel. This is most influenced by the design characteristics of the gun used, with the way your hands fit the grip being the other main factor.

Some times, the difference is subtle, sometimes not. One 9mm that I had, a Cobray M11/9, had more felt recoil than any other 9mm pistol I have shot, outside of the pocket size guns. The Cobray was big, & heavy, being the semi auto version of a SMG (Mac 10 style). Firing it with a normal grip, with its vertical grip, under the center of the gun, with a big, heavy bolt bouncing back and forth gave it more muzzle flip, and more felt force in the hand that the much lighter and smaller duty class pistols, (1911, HiPower, etc).

Energy in the guns was exactly the same, (same ammo) but the effect of the design on the feel of the recoil was very noticeable.

Another example, many people say the 9mm has less "kick" than the .45ACP. Why is that? Taking the standard FMJ ball loading in both the energy of both is virtually identical (368ft/lbs +/-). And you can get them in the same guns (1911, Sig, etc.)

Something makes a difference in the feel, so people think its less. In my hands, the total amount either one jumps is the same, the 9mm just seems to get there "quicker". I don't think the 9mm recoils less, it just feels different. But, that's just me...

[gunslinger2000]

OK guys, this thread got me to really wanting to try to measure the impulse of a semi-auto and revolver under recoil. I know it can be done with a ballistic pendulum and the formulas are well known. I used to measure the impulse from a .22 bullet when I was teaching high school physics. I have a 1911 clone and 1917 Colt revolver so can compare 45 ACP in both guns. I can see how to suspend the weapons on a two cable pendulum set up but I can't figure out how to fire them? Any ideas or suggestions? Both have relatively heavy trigger pulls. gunslinger

[Ibmikey]

Stubbicat, it is nice that you had a pleasant day shooting your two pistols and discovered one is easier to shoot than the other. I too often enjoy a day plinking at rocks and cans, my weapons that are easy on me get fired more--- period. No matter what statistical data others come up with the fun guns digest more ammo.

[45_auto]

Any ideas or suggestions?

You need to avoid any external forces on the gun. Easiest way to do it would probably be a small air bag (ballon?) just in front of the trigger connected to a hand pump or air compressor by a small, very flexible hose of negligible mass. Pump it up till it fires the gun.

If you want to get fancy, you could build a small motorized mechanism that would attach to the grip and pull the trigger using either a cable or a mechanical linkage.