Makarov 9x18mm: Effective cartridge for concealed carry, yes or no?

[Klingon00]

From what I can tell, depending upon the ammo manufacturer, it's equal to .380 at worst and a little less powerful than 9mm Luger at best. I would say that qualifies for close range defensive shooting where shooting through barriers like auto glass and such isn't a big concern.

The only issues for concealed carry might be the guns themselves. They generally have a good reputation for being reliable, but they tend to be older, larger and heavier (for caliber) designs that may not carry as comfortably as some of the more modern polymer pistols on the market today. Also, some incorporate a european style magazine release which may not be the best ergonomics wise, but may not be a concern if you don't carry extra magazines anyway.

The guns and the caliber have proven themselves to many non-nato countries of the world, so I wouldn't worry too much other than as others have stated, be sure to get training and practice because shot placement tends to matter more than caliber.

[GONIF]

There are many better choices. If you are useing to defend yourself it will work with proper shot placement and luck . That said , you would be far better served by a more powerfull better stopping round .IMHO a 9mm or a 38 is the bare minimum . Some of the bad guys are very large and on drugs (Meth) and you want to stop them dead in thier tracks . A 45acp,or .357 Sig,or 40cal are fine choices in a semi auto . A Ruger SP101 in .357 mag is an excellant choice in a revolver. It is your life ,protect it with a weapon and round that is up to the job . There are a lot of places you can save money ,self defence is not one of them . IMHO the 45acp is the way to go .
In this situation you want to take every edge you can get .

[Jehzsa]

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn-ecHLlLBYAuMM:http://i1010.photobucket.com/albums/af223/Wolfborne/handgun_gel_comparison.jpg&t=1

http://www.brassfetcher.com/var9x18mm.html

[CJO]

Another bonus...Macs fit quiet well into 1911 slide holsters.....

[DG45]

For some people no bullet will ever be big enough or powerful enough. As long as theres another bullet out there thats bigger or more powerful than what they've got, thats the one they'll want. They are not particularly concerned about having a good marriage between gun and cartridge. They just want bigger and more powerful. I call em cartridge nymphos.

In my opinion, guns and cartridges must be mated. They are either good combinations or they're not. If you want a really big, powerful bullet, thats ok, but you'll need a really big, heavy gun to shoot it in, if you want to keep the recoil managable. That probably means a gun you're going to have to wear out in the open, which may not be what you want to do. But if you opt instead to go with a lightweight concealable pistol that shoots a great big powerful cartridge, what you get is muzzle blast and recoil that is probably going to make you flinch badly - meaning you may miss on your first shot - and the recoil may be so bad that it slows you down to a crawl trying to getting the gun back in position for follow up shots. I don't like that scenario.

What I want is a bullet that can power its way through to the vitals, through flesh and bone and clothing and some minor obstacles, and I want a handgun that can deliver that bullet on target and be ready to deliver another one on target as fast as I can pull the trigger. A genuine military surplus Makarov pistol firing 9x18 mm Makarov cartridges can do that to my satisfaction. I imagine any of the Brand X guns that have been chambered for the 9x18 mm Makarov cartridge can do it too; however, I'm not sure that all of the Brand X pistols that have appropriated the 9x18 mm Makarov cartridge are as reliable or as accurate as the genuine Makarov pistol is; or are as esthetically pleasing either, for that matter. But I wish them all success because the more handguns that are out there that fire that 9x18mm Makarov cartridge, the more ammo makers will start making cartridges for the caliber, and the more they will experiment to develop a variety of bullet types for that caliber.

[GONIF]

If the 9x18 was so good the Army,FBI,Swat,Police depts and others would adopt it . As it stands it is a substandard preforming round . It has one thing going for it ,it is cheap to buy a gun chambered in 9x18 . It is like cheap bargin brand toilet paper ,it works but leaves you wishing you bought charmin.

[schnarrgj]

The 9mmMak is used by a number of east European countries, Russia and a number of other asian countries by both army and police. It is effective. Yes I have carried it a number of times. No handgun bullet is a manstopper. Location,location,location is what is the determining factor.

[bdb benzino]

If the 9x18 was so good the Army,FBI,Swat,Police depts and others would adopt it .

How about Russia for 50 years, China, Bulgaria, and E. Germany. Oh wait, someone forgot to tell them that their military was using a substandard round!

[Hoss Fly]

If the 9x18 was so good the Army,FBI,Swat,Police depts and others would adopt it .

What bdb said + there are many good defence rounds that the military ect did'nt adopt

[Catfishman]

From what I can tell, depending upon the ammo manufacturer, it's equal to .380 at worst and a little less powerful than 9mm Luger at best

That's what you would expect. But, the facts don't back that up. Buffalo Bore numbers are:
.380 acp 294 ft. lbs.
9mm luger 500 ft. lbs.
9x18 267 ft. lbs.


BTW - I see 9x18 hp everywhere now.

[vladan]

If the 9x18 was so good the Army,FBI,Swat,Police depts and others would adopt it . As it stands it is a substandard preforming round . It has one thing going for it ,it is cheap to buy a gun chambered in 9x18 . It is like cheap bargin brand toilet paper ,it works but leaves you wishing you bought charmin.

LOL, you kidding, right?

How about Russia for 50 years, China, Bulgaria, and E. Germany.

and Poland, Hungary, former Czechoslovakia ,... whole eastern block for that matter.
On the side note, in former Czechoslovakia for the CZ82 ( more precisely vz82 which is Czech military designation for this pistol) was developed new load that shot 69grain ( 4.5gram) sintered metal bullet at about 35% higher velocity. This was only shot from CZ82 polygonal barrel, not for other 9x18 guns with conventional rifling.

[raftman]

If the 9x18 was so good the Army,FBI,Swat,Police depts and others would adopt it . As it stands it is a substandard preforming round . It has one thing going for it ,it is cheap to buy a gun chambered in 9x18 . It is like cheap bargin brand toilet paper ,it works but leaves you wishing you bought charmin.

As it stands, that is a substandard performing opinion. A competent shooter that does his or her part can get the job done far better with a 9x18 (or smaller caliber, for that matter) than a yahoo that thinks that they're safe just because they carry a gun chambered for a round that starts with .4

[Cheapshooter]

If the 9x18 was so good the Army,FBI,Swat,Police depts and others would adopt it . As it stands it is a substandard preforming round . It has one thing going for it ,it is cheap to buy a gun chambered in 9x18 . It is like cheap bargin brand toilet paper ,it works but leaves you wishing you bought charmin.
__________________

That proves it. You can't fix stupid!!!
The question was not is it "so good". The question was is it adequate!

[Chesster]

I still carry one in the caliber from time to time, especially the SMC918. An old Corbon from a closely guarded hoard and five 95gr FMJ Norinco or S&B military ball. Great pocket gun with more punch than the .380.

[Wishoot]

A competent shooter that does his or her part can get the job done far better with a 9x18

Well stated. Personally, I shoot my CZ82 better than any other gun I own right now (I have a Glock 22 on the way so we'll see). If I can place 12 rounds of 9x18 FMJ where I want it to go, I'm pretty darn certain that any bad guy will have most, if not all of the fight taken out of them.

[DG45]

Gonif is entitled to his opinion and many people share it, but my guess is that before the bad old Soviet Union ever committed its military and secret police forces to the Makarov pistol and to the cartridge that was developed for it, they tested the combination extensively for effectiveness, and likely in ways that would leave today's western bleeding heart liberal types aghast.

PS: Chester I just looked that FEG SMC918 up, and that truly is an interesting looking gun. I hadn't known about that one. Is it small enough to be really concealable like a P3AT or LCP? That's what I'd really like to have. From the photos I saw, it looks like its a steel gun, so its probably heavier, but I'd love to be able to exchange my P3AT (380) for a 9x18mm. It has to really be concealable though.

What's the weight. How much do they cost?

[torpeau]

PS: Chester I just looked that FEG SMC918 up, and that truly is an interesting looking gun. I hadn't known about that one. Is it small enough to be really concealable like a P3AT or LCP? That's what I'd really like to have.

It's 1mm shorter than a P-64. With a steel frame, I think it's 15g heavier.

[Chesster]

DG45: They are no longer imported so you have to watch the used marked or auctions. I paid around 175-200 ea. for the pair I have. I also have an RK59 and the R61 which were the original state versions like the stock photo below. The original KBI inports of the SMC were alloy framed like the PA63s while they did import some all steel later. These guns are about the size of the Walther PPK but the grip frame is a bit like a shortened PPK/S or PP grip frame as it is not a wrap around grip on a skeleton frame. The weight is slightly less than the PPK I believe. Also, imports were brought in in .380 also and most had thumbrest grips that begged to be changed for handling and concealment purposes. I found old flat military grips for all of mine. It is a handful to shoot because of the alloy frame. They fit my PPK holster well. Wonderful little guns.

[MikeNice81]

I was eyeing a P-64 at a recent gun show. How does the P-83 compare in length and width?

I have heard that the P-83 has a much better trigger. Did they change the mag release? I wouldn't be to thrilled with having to use that release if I needed a fast reload.

[GONIF]

I knew I would stat a firestorm with that statement . Ask yourself if you would prefer a 9x18 to a 9mm para as your only pistol ? Ask yourself if you want to settle for less power if push came to shove ? The bottom line is the 9x18 is just not the best self defence round . Life is short ,why rush it with bad choices . Useing eastern europe and the soviets as an example of what is good is a joke . I'm not saying you can't defend yourself with a 9x18 MAK ,I'm saying you can do much better .

[Chesster]

I was eyeing a P-64 at a recent gun show. How does the P-83 compare in length and width?

I have heard that the P-83 has a much better trigger. Did they change the mag release? I wouldn't be to thrilled with having to use that release if I needed a fast reload.

The P-83 is about the same size and wt as the Makarov PM, only a little more blocky since it is made of sheet metal stampings. Trigger is nothing to write home about, about like most of these surplus "toys" for the old Eastern Bloc. Same type mag relase as the PM put a bit more difficult to handle than the PM release. Seems the Poles went about to make a Mak PM cheaper and cut the quality in the process of its redesign.

[torpeau]

I was eyeing a P-64 at a recent gun show.

I'm a big fan of the P-64 -- small, accurate and reliable. I've got 4 P-64s.

Bad DA trigger pull, but I think of it as a safety. SA is fine.

[MikeNice81]

I think Icould live with it, if I could find the 100+gr HPs. In every test I have seen the 95gr HPs penetrate less than 9 inches. The 115gr Brown Bear HP made 12 inches easily.

Is this stuff available any where? I checked and all I see is 95gr or 94gr HPs.

Torpeau, you can get the springs switched out in the P-64 and correct some of the trigger issues, right?

[torpeau]

I think Icould live with it, if I could find the 100+gr HPs. In every test I have seen the 95gr HPs penetrate less than 9 inches. The 115gr Brown Bear HP made 12 inches easily.

Torpeau, you can get the springs switched out in the P-64 and correct some of the trigger issues, right?

Those in the know do not recommend 100+gr ammo. I have never used it in mine.

Many people choose to replace the springs to make the DA trigger pull better. Many don't mess with it. I don't.

[gc70]

Originally Posted by GONIF

Ask yourself if you want to settle for less power if push came to shove ?

Why carry an anemic .45 when you could have a .500 S&W Magnum?

Folks carry what they think they need to get the job done. YMMV