Trying to duplicate M2 Ball. Need advice.

kjm · February 3, 2001, 06:19 PM

I'm working on loads for an M1 and want to duplicate to the extent possible the M2 or National Match loads. Can anyone tell me what brand/type of bullets were used? What I need is a recipe for M2 and NM each.

alan · February 3, 2001, 08:16 PM

For M2 ball, with 150 grain ball bullets, something around 48 grains of 4895, work up from below should come close, in military brass.

As for National Match ammunition, it was loaded with 173 grain boat tail bullets, known as FA Match Bullets, and as I recall, the load was 47.5 of 4895, in 1967. Note that the arsenals used NON-CANISTER POWDER, and loaded ammunition to velocity and chamber pressure specifications. They had the necessary test equipment and facilities also. The average civilian doesn't, unfortunately.

ALWAYS WORK UP FROM BELOW.

zot · February 4, 2001, 01:16 AM

I'd use middle loads from Speer manual, with IMR 4350, maybe
work up.

alan · February 4, 2001, 01:02 PM

Zot:

Read the original post again, re yur mention of using 4350. This is a fine propellant, but NOT appropriate to the M-1 Rifle. The time-pressure curve/gas port pressure is all wrong, and could damage the operating rod of an M-1.

Suitable powders are MEDIUM BURNING RATE ITEMS, including for the IMR series 4064, 4895, 3031, usually nothing slower than 4320. 4350 is great, IN BOLT ACTION RIFLES.

MFH · February 5, 2001, 09:03 PM

Handloader #181 has an article on duplicating the M2 load. They used a sierra 168match king and Scot 3032 and IMR-3031.

beemerb · February 5, 2001, 09:16 PM

All loads as listed in the cartridges of the world 7 edition.

M 2 vel 2740 plus or minus 30fps at 78 ft
bullet 152-3 gr
Powder
IMR 4895 50gr
WC852 50gr
CMR 100 45gr

Match M72 vel-2640 plus or minus 30fps at 78 ft

Bullet 175.5-3gr
Powder
IMR 4895 50 gr

Hope this helps

LIProgun · February 6, 2001, 09:49 AM

I've used Hodgdon H380 for M2 Ball duplicate for an M1 Rifle, with decent results. Any feedback from those in the know if that powder has a suitable time-pressure curve/gas port pressure for gas guns?

Cheapo · February 6, 2001, 03:57 PM

Ball-C (2) is perfectly fine for the M1.

Patrick Graham · February 6, 2001, 06:34 PM

Right out of the NRA Manual "The M1 Rifle"
Page 18:

147/150 gr bullets - either fmj or hpbt (the m2 load in 150)
imr 3031 - 48gr
imr 4895 - 49gr - about 2750fps out of a friends Rem 1917, about 2640fps out of my M1 (F1 Chrony)(Mil Spec if I ever saw it)
imr 4964 - 50gr
Win 748 - 48gr

173/175gr bullets M72 or m118 (the m72 load in 173)
imr 4895 - 46gr - about 2530 out of my M1 (F1 Chrony) - see note below
imr 4064 - 47gr

Note about the m72 rounds (173gr). the LC factory box says it should do 2640fps - this is not out of a Garand. It will do that only out of a bolt gun.

zot · February 6, 2001, 11:29 PM

ALAN, I guess I know why I lost 2 op-rods off 2 garands.
cut my right hand deep, thats how far the one came off,
also had 8 rd. burst fire before rods came off,I had several
pounds of IMR 4350, and I loaded alot of 06 for P-17s,
another powder which I used as fertilizer H 450, had really
high pressure signs with starting load, I thought 4350 was
a powder they used in WW2? made for garands, hell don't
take my advice thats for sure. me and garands never did get along.

alan · February 7, 2001, 12:17 AM

Zot:

Glad to hear you survived, with what sounded like not overly serious, though certainly painful injuries. As for the P17 rifle that you mentioned, I take it that that was otherwise known as the U.S. Model 1917 Enfield, a quite strong bolt gun, with what may have been the worlds worst stock. 4350 would work out fine for 30-06, in a bolt rifle, especially with heavier bullets

February 5, 2001, 09:16 PM	#6
beemerb Junior member Join Date: October 2, 1999 Location: AZ Posts: 1,759	duplicate ball M 2 and match ammo All loads as listed in the cartridges of the world 7 edition. M 2 vel 2740 plus or minus 30fps at 78 ft bullet 152-3 gr Powder IMR 4895 50gr WC852 50gr CMR 100 45gr Match M72 vel-2640 plus or minus 30fps at 78 ft Bullet 175.5-3gr Powder IMR 4895 50 gr Hope this helps

February 6, 2001, 09:49 AM	#7
LIProgun Senior Member Join Date: August 27, 2000 Location: Hudson Valley, NY Posts: 489	H380? I've used Hodgdon H380 for M2 Ball duplicate for an M1 Rifle, with decent results. Any feedback from those in the know if that powder has a suitable time-pressure curve/gas port pressure for gas guns? __________________ MOLON LABE. - Leonidas of Sparta, 480 B.C.

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February 3, 2001, 06:19 PM	#1
kjm Senior Member Join Date: December 24, 1999 Location: College Station, Texas Posts: 1,871	I'm working on loads for an M1 and want to duplicate to the extent possible the M2 or National Match loads. Can anyone tell me what brand/type of bullets were used? What I need is a recipe for M2 and NM each.

February 3, 2001, 08:16 PM	#2
alan Senior Member Join Date: June 7, 1999 Posts: 3,847	For M2 ball, with 150 grain ball bullets, something around 48 grains of 4895, work up from below should come close, in military brass. As for National Match ammunition, it was loaded with 173 grain boat tail bullets, known as FA Match Bullets, and as I recall, the load was 47.5 of 4895, in 1967. Note that the arsenals used NON-CANISTER POWDER, and loaded ammunition to velocity and chamber pressure specifications. They had the necessary test equipment and facilities also. The average civilian doesn't, unfortunately. ALWAYS WORK UP FROM BELOW.

February 4, 2001, 01:16 AM	#3
zot Senior Member Join Date: April 2, 1999 Location: U.S.A. Posts: 566	I'd use middle loads from Speer manual, with IMR 4350, maybe work up.

February 4, 2001, 01:02 PM	#4
alan Senior Member Join Date: June 7, 1999 Posts: 3,847	Zot: Read the original post again, re yur mention of using 4350. This is a fine propellant, but NOT appropriate to the M-1 Rifle. The time-pressure curve/gas port pressure is all wrong, and could damage the operating rod of an M-1. Suitable powders are MEDIUM BURNING RATE ITEMS, including for the IMR series 4064, 4895, 3031, usually nothing slower than 4320. 4350 is great, IN BOLT ACTION RIFLES.

February 5, 2001, 09:03 PM	#5
MFH Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2000 Posts: 122	Handloader #181 has an article on duplicating the M2 load. They used a sierra 168match king and Scot 3032 and IMR-3031.

February 6, 2001, 03:57 PM	#8
Cheapo Senior Member Join Date: November 19, 1998 Posts: 986	Ball-C (2) is perfectly fine for the M1.

February 6, 2001, 06:34 PM	#9
Patrick Graham Junior member Join Date: January 18, 1999 Location: Kokomo, Indiana USA Posts: 674	Right out of the NRA Manual "The M1 Rifle" Page 18: 147/150 gr bullets - either fmj or hpbt (the m2 load in 150) imr 3031 - 48gr imr 4895 - 49gr - about 2750fps out of a friends Rem 1917, about 2640fps out of my M1 (F1 Chrony)(Mil Spec if I ever saw it) imr 4964 - 50gr Win 748 - 48gr 173/175gr bullets M72 or m118 (the m72 load in 173) imr 4895 - 46gr - about 2530 out of my M1 (F1 Chrony) - see note below imr 4064 - 47gr Note about the m72 rounds (173gr). the LC factory box says it should do 2640fps - this is not out of a Garand. It will do that only out of a bolt gun.

February 6, 2001, 11:29 PM	#10
zot Senior Member Join Date: April 2, 1999 Location: U.S.A. Posts: 566	ALAN, I guess I know why I lost 2 op-rods off 2 garands. cut my right hand deep, thats how far the one came off, also had 8 rd. burst fire before rods came off,I had several pounds of IMR 4350, and I loaded alot of 06 for P-17s, another powder which I used as fertilizer H 450, had really high pressure signs with starting load, I thought 4350 was a powder they used in WW2? made for garands, hell don't take my advice thats for sure. me and garands never did get along.

February 7, 2001, 12:17 AM	#11
alan Senior Member Join Date: June 7, 1999 Posts: 3,847	Zot: Glad to hear you survived, with what sounded like not overly serious, though certainly painful injuries. As for the P17 rifle that you mentioned, I take it that that was otherwise known as the U.S. Model 1917 Enfield, a quite strong bolt gun, with what may have been the worlds worst stock. 4350 would work out fine for 30-06, in a bolt rifle, especially with heavier bullets