Powder identification

AL45 · August 15, 2014, 09:10 PM

A guy gave me several pounds of various powders and 2 of the containers had the original label removed. He had taped a piece of duct tape on them and wrote IMR 4227. I looked at the powder with a magnifying glass and it is an extruded powder with a tiny hole through the center. Does this sound like IMR 4227?

jimbob86 · August 15, 2014, 09:15 PM

Dunno ..... and, if I don't know, I DON'T.

Handloading is not a place for unknowns.

kilimanjaro · August 15, 2014, 09:22 PM

Yes, it probably is.

I would not use it, myself. I buy lots of reloading stuff at yard and estate sales, but will NOT buy an opened can of powder. Bottom line, you don't know if it's the correct powder, and the price of a pound of powder isn't worth a valuable firearm or a body part.

When it comes as part of a box lot, I dump it and light it off for a show.

If it's a trusted friend, that might mean something, but I still wouldn't. It's nothing personal, just risk avoidance.

Gdawgs · August 16, 2014, 07:51 AM

Sounds like 4227. Here's a pic. The container it is in is the cap off the bottle of powder so you get an idea of size. These are very small grains.
I've never noticed the holes before.

But I'm kind of with the other guys on this one. If you know the guy really well, maybe. Otherwise???

AL45 · August 16, 2014, 09:29 AM

Thanks for the advice. I am definitely NOT a thrill seeker and always err on the side of caution. I just wondered if there is enough difference in powder appearance to be able to tell the difference. How would it be tested in a lab to be able to tell what it is?

243winxb · August 16, 2014, 10:40 AM

Would seem to be one of the many 4227 powders. There are may vintages of 4227. http://www.ilrc.ucf.edu/powders/samp...?powder_id=693 Dupont, Hodgdon, IMR. Currently IMR4227 and H4227 are both the same if you look at the http://www.hodgdon.com/msds.html (AR2205)

243winxb · August 16, 2014, 10:47 AM

Quote:

How would it be tested in a lab to be able to tell what it is?

The "Close Bomb Test" will give the burn rate of powders. http://www.ditusa.com/closed_bomb.php

Quote:

The Closed Bomb is used for determining the quickness and force of a test propellant sample, by a relative or an absolute procedure. It is used primarily for gun propellants.

Jim Watson · August 16, 2014, 11:01 AM

I agree on being cautious about such stuff.
I was in the typical Post-Panic Powder Procurement tizzy when some W231 became available. Well ol' Joe TOLD ol' Fred it was 231 but it is not in a Winchester can. Pass.

Identifying powder is a good trick. There are a lot of extruded powders made of nitrocellulose with low percentage deterrent coatings. Once you have settled that, the only way to know for sure is to load some up and shoot it in a PV test gun.

There are three things you can do.
Believe the label and use it as 4227.
Work up from VERY light loads.
Trash it.

My heirs will be in the same predicament.
I have two cans originally holding IMR 4064 with masking tape labels for 700X. My neighbor the gunsmith provided them to get me started in trapshooting many years ago. I watched him apply the tape, mark it, and fill them with 700X from his 10lb keg. I have refilled them from 700X kegs multiple times over the years. I know that when I reach for the blue can with the broad band of tape around it that I am going to get 700X.
Could Junior count on that? SHOULD Junior count on that?

G_P · August 17, 2014, 06:02 PM

That looks like IMR 4227 to me. But when in doubt throw the powder on the garden or dump it in a line in the dirt and light it. As others have said its not worth blowing up a gun and possibly losing body parts just to save a few bucks on powder.

I've passed up several containers of powder at yard sales because there was no way I was going to trust that it was what the tape label said it was. End up putting fast burning pistol powder in a rifle load meant to use a slow burning powder and you will have a bomb on your hands.

Brotherbadger · August 18, 2014, 03:39 AM

Quote:

but will NOT buy an opened can of powder. Bottom line, you don't know if it's the correct powder, and the price of a pound of powder isn't worth a valuable firearm or a body part.

Agreed. Powder isn't that expensive. If it's been opened, and you cannot definitively identify it, i would just chuck it.

**Mike Irwin** · August 18, 2014, 06:35 AM

Visual identification of power is impossible. There have been literally dozens of powders that have shared the same basic size, shape, and form over the years, and all have different burn characteristics.

The only powders that can be positively identified visually are Alliant's Blue, Red, and Green Dot powders.

Even IMR's Trail Boss, which is quite distinctively shaped, is very similar to a rifle powder that was out in the 1920s.

Chances are good that the powder is actually 4227. But chances are also good that the owner screwed up and put the wrong number on them.

Powder should always be left in the original packaging.

madmo44mag · August 18, 2014, 07:40 AM

As bad as I would hate to toss powder in the trash in this case I think I would.
If I knew and trusted the person that gave me the powder I might work up some light loads and see what I got but it would have to be someone I REALLY trusted.
Powder is cheap compared to a gun, hands or sight.

August 15, 2014, 09:10 PM	#1
AL45 Senior Member Join Date: December 12, 2012 Posts: 754	Powder identification A guy gave me several pounds of various powders and 2 of the containers had the original label removed. He had taped a piece of duct tape on them and wrote IMR 4227. I looked at the powder with a magnifying glass and it is an extruded powder with a tiny hole through the center. Does this sound like IMR 4227?

August 16, 2014, 10:40 AM	#6
243winxb Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2011 Location: USA Posts: 1,730	4227 powders Would seem to be one of the many 4227 powders. There are may vintages of 4227. http://www.ilrc.ucf.edu/powders/samp...?powder_id=693 Dupont, Hodgdon, IMR. Currently IMR4227 and H4227 are both the same if you look at the http://www.hodgdon.com/msds.html (AR2205)

August 18, 2014, 06:35 AM	#11
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,382	Visual identification of power is impossible. There have been literally dozens of powders that have shared the same basic size, shape, and form over the years, and all have different burn characteristics. The only powders that can be positively identified visually are Alliant's Blue, Red, and Green Dot powders. Even IMR's Trail Boss, which is quite distinctively shaped, is very similar to a rifle powder that was out in the 1920s. Chances are good that the powder is actually 4227. But chances are also good that the owner screwed up and put the wrong number on them. Powder should always be left in the original packaging. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

August 18, 2014, 07:40 AM	#12
madmo44mag Senior Member Join Date: December 29, 2008 Location: Ft.Worth, Texas Posts: 1,522	As bad as I would hate to toss powder in the trash in this case I think I would. If I knew and trusted the person that gave me the powder I might work up some light loads and see what I got but it would have to be someone I REALLY trusted. Powder is cheap compared to a gun, hands or sight. __________________ Texas - Not just a state but an attitude! For monthly shooting events in DFW visit http://www.meetup.com/TexasGunOwner-DFW

August 15, 2014, 09:15 PM	#2
jimbob86 Junior member Join Date: October 4, 2007 Location: All the way to NEBRASKA Posts: 8,722	Dunno ..... and, if I don't know, I DON'T. Handloading is not a place for unknowns.

August 15, 2014, 09:22 PM	#3
kilimanjaro Senior Member Join Date: November 23, 2009 Posts: 3,963	Yes, it probably is. I would not use it, myself. I buy lots of reloading stuff at yard and estate sales, but will NOT buy an opened can of powder. Bottom line, you don't know if it's the correct powder, and the price of a pound of powder isn't worth a valuable firearm or a body part. When it comes as part of a box lot, I dump it and light it off for a show. If it's a trusted friend, that might mean something, but I still wouldn't. It's nothing personal, just risk avoidance.

August 16, 2014, 07:51 AM	#4
Gdawgs Senior Member Join Date: June 1, 2009 Location: MN Posts: 656	Sounds like 4227. Here's a pic. The container it is in is the cap off the bottle of powder so you get an idea of size. These are very small grains. I've never noticed the holes before. But I'm kind of with the other guys on this one. If you know the guy really well, maybe. Otherwise???

August 16, 2014, 09:29 AM	#5
AL45 Senior Member Join Date: December 12, 2012 Posts: 754	Thanks for the advice. I am definitely NOT a thrill seeker and always err on the side of caution. I just wondered if there is enough difference in powder appearance to be able to tell the difference. How would it be tested in a lab to be able to tell what it is?

August 16, 2014, 11:01 AM	#8
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,539	I agree on being cautious about such stuff. I was in the typical Post-Panic Powder Procurement tizzy when some W231 became available. Well ol' Joe TOLD ol' Fred it was 231 but it is not in a Winchester can. Pass. Identifying powder is a good trick. There are a lot of extruded powders made of nitrocellulose with low percentage deterrent coatings. Once you have settled that, the only way to know for sure is to load some up and shoot it in a PV test gun. There are three things you can do. Believe the label and use it as 4227. Work up from VERY light loads. Trash it. My heirs will be in the same predicament. I have two cans originally holding IMR 4064 with masking tape labels for 700X. My neighbor the gunsmith provided them to get me started in trapshooting many years ago. I watched him apply the tape, mark it, and fill them with 700X from his 10lb keg. I have refilled them from 700X kegs multiple times over the years. I know that when I reach for the blue can with the broad band of tape around it that I am going to get 700X. Could Junior count on that? SHOULD Junior count on that?

August 17, 2014, 06:02 PM	#9
G_P Member Join Date: January 4, 2014 Posts: 45	That looks like IMR 4227 to me. But when in doubt throw the powder on the garden or dump it in a line in the dirt and light it. As others have said its not worth blowing up a gun and possibly losing body parts just to save a few bucks on powder. I've passed up several containers of powder at yard sales because there was no way I was going to trust that it was what the tape label said it was. End up putting fast burning pistol powder in a rifle load meant to use a slow burning powder and you will have a bomb on your hands.