When Something Goes Bump in The Night... - Page 2

Rangefinder · November 4, 2009, 02:23 AM

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Picture a 70 year old standing in the chicken yard wearing a pair of boots and uderwear holding a shotgun.

LOL Sounds about like me last week when a skunk decided my shed was a great place to make a den behind. 2am with a heavy coat, in my shorts and slippers with my .22 rifle and a spotlight. I'm not 70, but it's still not an image I'd post for fashion statements.

Dallas Jack · November 4, 2009, 02:36 AM

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Massad Ayoob tells a story about the National Tactical Invitational, an annual competition in which some 130 of the top shooters and firearm trainers participate by invitation only. One of the events is a force-on-force exercise using simunitions in which the competitor must clear a house against a single "BG." According to Mas, during the first six of these annual events, only one competitor, in one year "survived" the exercise and he was head of NASA security firearms training at the time. And one, and only one, made it through the seventh year. The tactical advantage of the ensconced adversary is just too great. And remember, these competitors were highly skilled, highly trained fighters.

This was a competition to test ones ability against a planted BG. Not hardly real life. I claim no special ability in clearing SOME building. I would not even try. I'm only interested in my house. Also I never said clearing a house wasn't a bad idea. Going into a strange house with a possible intruder is very dangerous.

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And you really can't assume that he's all that unfamiliar with your house. With most houses it's possible to deduce a lot about their interior layouts from their exteriors. And he might have been watching the house for a while and learned a lot about its layout, and the household routine that way, e. g., watching the pattern of lights going on and off or watching shadows in the windows as people leave or arrive.

The only way to know the layout of my house is to come on in (or look at the plans). It is a crazy array of angles and dead spots. It took me some time to figure out how my fireplace was on an outside wall when you are inside and on an inside wall when you are outside. Figure that one out.

As far as finding a routine, there isn't any. I am on a SS disability and one of my problems is sleep apnea. I usually do not sleep more than a couple of hours in a row. Which hours? Who knows it's not the same every day. I'm usually here 24/7.
Dallas Jack

**Frank Ettin** · November 4, 2009, 02:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dallas Jack

....Going into a strange house with a possible intruder is very dangerous....

My training tells me that your supposed "home court advantage" is more illusory than real. You are looking for him. You don't know where he is. He knows you are coming and where you'll be coming from. He just needs to wait.

But have fun. I think you're kidding yourself. But as I've said, it's not my problem.

Dallas Jack · November 4, 2009, 03:32 AM

Quote:

My training tells me that your supposed "home court advantage" is more illusory than real. You are looking for him. You don't know where he is. He knows you are coming and where you'll be coming from.

What kind of training can you possibly get that can tell you what I may do or know or for that matter what he may or may not know or be doing.

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He just needs to wait.

All the while the alarm is still screaming. Time is on my side.

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But have fun. I think you're kidding yourself. But as I've said, it's not my problem.

Your absolutely right. It's not your problem.

If you hear a bump in the night do whatever you think is best. So will I.
Dallas Jack

Uncle Billy · November 4, 2009, 06:42 AM

The OP was asking about jumping into action in the middle of the night in his shorts- where does all the gear go? Sort of like the picture of that soldier from Texas in Afghanistan in "I love New York" pink undies, slippers and his body armor and helmet in a bunker under fire. I'll bet he got some baloney for that from the other guys in his unit.

I thought about being in that situation and came up with the idea of my trap shooting vest- lots of pockets for handguns, lights, clips, shells, etc., on in a jiffy, doesn't impede movement.

CWPinSC · November 4, 2009, 08:23 AM

Think about it:

Is your TV worth a gunfight you might not win? Seriously, people - death is sorta permanent.

No, the intruder doesn't enter a house just to "hunker down". But when he hears you moving around, he will either leave or freeze in hiding. If he's armed, the latter case makes him EXTREMELY dangerous. Especially if he's a multi-time loser, he has more to gain (freedom/escape) by killing you than you have to gain (saving that TV) by killing him.

Clearing Scenario:
1. Unless you have night vision, you will have to show or turn on a light to see where he is. That targets you. A flashlight or gun-mounted tac light beam is a wonderful bullseye. You'll light him up about the same time he pulls his trigger.
2. Unless you're a ninja, you will make noise as you search. Floors creak and door hinges squeak. Now he knows exactly where you are.
3. He can remain silent and in concealment while you come to him. You'll be gunfighting on his turf, on his terms.
4. In the dark, the human eye detects movement first. He's frozen, you're moving. Guess who will see who first?

Those of you who have served (especially in Vietnam) know about ambushes. First shot = first kill

You:
Showing light
Making noise
Moving

Him:
In the dark
Silent
Still

Guess who wins...

Now, try it this way:
The alarm goes off and you hear noises. You have reason to believe someone has entered your house. Grab the family and get in your defense room. Ideally, this is a room at the end of a hall with only one entrance, like an upstairs bedroom. It has a solid core door with 3" hinge/lock screws and a dead bolt. The hall can be brightly lit and the room stay in darkness. Get in there, bolt the door, aim all weapons at the door. Call 911. "Home invasion happening NOW. There is someone in my house NOW. I am in the upstairs bedroom. I am armed. I am in imminent fear of my life." Stay on the phone until the situation is resolved. Now, compare this scenario with Clearing Scenario:

Defending Scenario:
1. You're in the dark and can see clearly into a lighted area.
2. You're silent. He's making noise looking around.
3. He has to come to you. Now you're gunfighting on your turf, with your concealment and tactics.
4. You're still, he's moving. Guess who sees who first?

If he enters the door - you know what to do.

Again, first shot = first kill, but guess who makes it this time?

I apologize for becoming repetitive in this post, but I'm trying to emphasize a point. None of us are professional gunfighters. Very few of us have had tactical training. We're not being paid/trained to do this. All of us will be so scared we'll be wetting ourselves (I know, I've been there). BTW, being afraid doesn't make you a coward. No property, I repeat, NOTHING in our house is worth our lives. I assure you all - if he comes for me or my family, I'll be empty or dead before he wins. But, if he doesn't...I and my family are safe and unharmed. THAT'S a winner!

**OldMarksman** · November 4, 2009, 09:24 AM

Interesting that everyone who has ever trained to clear a structure for professional reasons who has ever offered a post on the subject says he won't try it. All trainers say don't do it. All books written by knowledgeable say don't do it--they say to say let the threat come to you.

As sworn officers, the pros have to do it; but they do not work individually, they wear protective gear, and they use things that you cannot lawfully own and would not want to set off in your house.

The National Tactical Invitational results are completely convincing to me.

Home court advantage? That'll help you find your way to the kitchen, but it won't defend you from bullets fired from ambush when you have put yourself in plain view of someone who is waiting for whomever comes into view.

Those who traipse around with gun in hand put themselves at risk so extreme as to be unacceptable to any thinking person who understands it. Unlike what happens in the movies (the ones shown on the screen and the ones people play in their minds), there's no audience who knows where the bad guy is, and there's no screenwriter to prevent him from firing first so the story won't end badly.

If the homeowner happens to see someone before he has been shot, he has the obligation, the castle doctrine notwithstanding, to assure himself that the man is not a neighbor or a returning child or a policeman before he fires. The bad guy or guys does not. And if there are two, the homeowner may be shot from more than one direction. Most of the home invasions around here recently have involved more than one crook.

I've done it a couple of times over the decades, but that was before I spent more than a minute or two thinking about it after reading the first book I saw on the subject.

Things came out OK both times....that's because there was no one there.

High Noon was on the other day. Great movie. But did it ever occur to anyone that Gary Cooper's walking around with gun in hand looking for several miscreants, while it made excellent drama, was completely unrealistic and more than extremely dangerous?

TailGator · November 4, 2009, 09:42 AM

There have been a lot of adamantly expressed opinions in this thread, but I would like to call attention to the modest and unassuming post by "Greg TX" (Post #19). Instead of subscribing to a one-size-fits-all rule, he has thought about the layout of his house, where occupants will be, and what exposure he would suffer with different strategies and different locations, and come up with an individualized strategy uniquely adapted to his situation that he can implement on a moment's notice. THAT is good tactics. Just the opinion of one chubby little grey-beard.

MLeake · November 4, 2009, 10:41 AM

... not trying to be overly argumentative with you guys, since in general I agree with what you're saying.

However, this quote from CWPinSC:

Quote:

You have reason to believe someone has entered your house. Grab the family and get in your defense room.

Unless your rooms are adjacent (and most homes are not laid out that way, in order to afford some privacy), you will HAVE TO clear at least one hallway in order to effect that goal.

This is why I'm saying you should give some thought to how to do that, even if it isn't your primary strategy.

The concern I have with this particular debate is that there are a lot of people who are so used to automatically saying, "Hunker down in a defensive position - I would NEVER attempt to clear the house!" that I have to think they may have never given a thought to how to actually get to the kids, the houseguests, the elderly parents...

Just because something is dangerous or less than optimal, doesn't mean there won't be a time when it's still the only morally acceptable option left to you. A worst case plan would be good to have in your pocket.

Again, mine involves letting the dog tell me where the threat is. At the moment, since my big dog passed last year, I only have the detection device dog; hopefully, we'll get another big dog in the not too distant future.

You're right about professionals clearing houses in teams. However, have you noticed the number of professionals (military and police) who use K-9?

Now, there's another factor people haven't really considered here: those of us who live in rural areas, and have livestock.

The odds are, in my neck of the woods, that a bump will be outside as opposed to inside. The odds are that that bump will be made by an animal, as opposed to a person. But a commotion among the horses could be caused by a bear, coyotes, or even a barn fire.

I can't call the police, fire department, or wildlife folks every time the horses or dog get upset. As a practical matter, if I hear something going on outside, it's grab the shotgun and a handgun, and go take a look. (Or maybe leave the shotgun with the lady, and grab a 7mmMag or .30-06 and a handgun. Then again, if the horses are upset, she's probably heading out the door, with or without the shotgun.)

There is a remote possibility that the commotion could be caused by a horse thief or thieves. Should I not investigate on the off-chance?

Or should I call 911 every time the animals get upset by something?

Did I mention I'm in the sticks? Whoever responded would have a bit of a drive to get there - probably 8 or ten miles on average from the nearest patrol, once it was notified. Mulitiple "nuisance" calls would probably result in getting chewed out or blown off, over time...

Not trying to be snide, just saying that I might hunker down from a "bad guy" only to find in the morning that the barn has burned down, or a bear has busted a gate and the horses are who knows where.

So my own situation biases me toward going out and taking a look, for outdoors issues.

**Frank Ettin** · November 4, 2009, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MLeake

...Not trying to be snide, just saying that I might hunker down from a "bad guy" only to find in the morning that the barn has burned down, or a bear has busted a gate and the horses are who knows where....

I think everyone is agreed that there are situations in which one might have no good choice but to go out looking.

I think that point is that no matter what you do, or what advantage you believe you have, going looking is high risk to you. The ensconced adversary has a natural and significant tactical advantage.

So it would not be good tactics to go out looking unless you have a very good reason to do so. Seeing to the safety of unaccounted for innocents or your livestock could be very good reasons. I personally don't think ego is a good reason. YMMV

hogdogs · November 4, 2009, 10:55 AM

Quote:

You:
Showing light
Making noise
Moving

Him:
In the dark
Silent
Still

NOT ME!!!
ME:
NO LIGHT
I am silent but my dogs will be letting me know which quadrant of which room he "hunkered down" in.
Moving, but silently and with no light BG has little chance...

He may be in the dark but with near a half dozen dogs in your face (one is a pit cross), he won't be very silent nor still

I don't use them passive squallin' alarm systems... Mine are proactive/reactive and slightly aggressive

Brent

Glenn E. Meyer · November 4, 2009, 11:04 AM

Having been to the NTI three times - as a FOG - I'm staying put unless forced to, if I think there is a serious threat and there is no one to rescue from immediate harm.

I also have been to a fun FOF class with Karl Rehn from www.krtraining.com.

We were in a bedroom. Two burglars break in. Deal with it. Most of the newbies who decided to go see or confront - died. The intruders were trained instructors. My experience in being a school shooter in a warren of rooms vs. an entry team of variable experience demonstrated to me how ambushes could be very effective.

**OldMarksman** · November 4, 2009, 11:05 AM

Quote:

The concern I have with this particular debate is that there are a lot of people who are so used to automatically saying, "Hunker down in a defensive position - I would NEVER attempt to clear the house!" that I have to think they may have never given a thought to how to actually get to the kids, the houseguests, the elderly parents...

One would hope that they had, but that's a good input.

Quote:

Now, there's another factor people haven't really considered here: those of us who live in rural areas, and have livestock.

Right. We consider things from the perspective of our own environs.

I spent a good part of many summers on the farms of relatives. Things were a lot more peaceful then. A shotgun in the corner and a handgun near the bed were never picked up; doors were kept unlocked; no one ever posed a threat.

Today there are gangs, people looking for propane or anhydrous ammonia, people who will bring in a truck and take everything in the household when the car is gone... Hunkering down and waiting isn't going to save the horses or stop an arson attack. Most farmers have had bright lights outside for years, and for that reason no one in many of our states has ever seen the Milky Way. I drove ninety miles from the city to see a meteor shower some years back, and the yard lights in the country made it all but impossible to see anything.

In a rural area, going to a bedroom and waiting would probably not be Plan A, but if there were dangerous folks out there, I would be at a real disadvantage going out. They could be anywhere, and they would know that I would be coming from the house...

I think I'd be inclined to go rather high-tech, with CCTV--maybe sensitive to IR--listening devices, and other detection systems, perimeter security--and a plan.

My relatives never carried guns outdoors. Can't see that now.

Sad...

CWPinSC · November 4, 2009, 01:14 PM

I will agree there isn't a general answer that covers 100% of the situations.

In my house, my bedroom is downstairs and my daughter's upstairs. The alarm squalls the instant the door is opened. 15 seconds later, the security company comes on the loud speaker and asks for a password. I can talk to them from any room in the house and be heard. "Home invasion, send police." gets them moving immediately. My 60 pound pit bull, 70 pound Plot
Hound mix, and 45 pound terrier mix are going absolutely APE. They are barking at the intruder and at the alarm. They HATE that sound. While this is going on, my wife and I are covering the entrance to our bedroom and the access to the stairs to the second floor. Nothing can get by. We have no other family members or people who should have access to my house uninvited. Anything that moves into my field of sight gets wasted.

I guess it's more simple for me than others. If I had livestock out in the far country, I'd probably go out looking for bear or other predators - probably with a pump shotgun and/or major caliber revolver (.454 casull, maybe?). If I had family at the other end of the house - for sure I'd go to them. But I don't, there's only one bedroom downstairs. If your alarm goes off instantly, and the dogs bark even before that, you have a few seconds to get the family to safety and into position. BTW, my wife shoots almost as well as I do. My daughter also shoots and is very proficient, as is her boyfriend (who lives with us). I don't worry about their safety too much. They can take care of themselves if I can't get to them. My dogs bark differently at a person than other things. Yours probably do, too. You learn to recognize the difference and react accordingly.

MLeake · November 4, 2009, 02:18 PM

The lady can shoot reasonably well. Her favorite long gun is the 12ga 870, so that defaults to her in my scheme. Her favorite handguns are situationally dependent; for larger critters, she likes the GP100 with 180gr HC Buffalo Bore, and for 'yotes and others she likes either the CZ PCR 9mm or the SIG P220 .45acp.

Since she likes the shotgun, I end up with the Garand or 700ADL (Garand if I'm going to explore outdoors, the scoped ADL if I'm going to be stationary by the house) for suspected bear, and the AR for 'yotes or 2-legged. For bear, I'd take the .44Mag as backup; for other, probably the big CZ75 9mm.

The dog is a Jack Russell. She's a good alarm system, and very good at indicating the direction of the threat, but once she gives me the general point, she's staying inside. Too small to defend herself against anything of note, and I don't want the distraction of having to defend her.

Need to get another big dog, but currently I travel a lot for work. The lady wants to wait until I have more home time in order to break in a new dog.

Last, as far as fire goes, when I brought up that possibility a few people immediately thought of arson. While that's a possibility, I was thinking more in terms of:

Lightning strike; or
Surge/short in main power line to the barn; or
Blown water heater (we have hot and cold water in the barn, for washing horses)

So, arson is a possibility, but there are other, likelier causes.

The point I was trying to make there is that there are an abundance of things that go bump in the night, or that scare the animals, that are not human invaders, and that might actually require immediate attention if catastrophe is to be averted.

DRice.72 · November 4, 2009, 02:32 PM

I have a question. I ask my question not to be smart or put any of these methods down, but to understand. I have no training in HD so this is most likely where my lack of understanding comes from.

In my current thinking, if I need more than one clip of ammunition from my pistol, or more than is in the magazine of my shotgun. I see (in my limited knowledge) two main reasons)

#1) I need that many shots to engage a BG

or

#2) I have that many BG to engage.

So if its #1 and I'm that bad a shot, I need not have a HD weapon, as I'm putting everyone around me in more danger than if the BG just took the plasma tv and left with it.

If its #2 do I really need to be in a gun fight in my home with that many BG?

Shouldn't I gather the family in one place, hunker down and make just one shot count if the situation comes to that? Have my GF and kids behind me so they are safe, if the door to the room opens, that is the point of engagement.

Again, i'm not trying to start anything, I honestly don't understand,and would like to learn.

Parapliers · November 4, 2009, 02:40 PM

I had a possum break in and hunker down once. Had a hard time convincing him to leave too.

Quote:

The point I was trying to make there is that there are an abundance of things that go bump in the night, or that scare the animals, that are not human invaders, and that might actually require immediate attention if catastrophe is to be averted

.

Best reply yet. I'd hate to be cowering in a closet with my family waiting for help that may never come while I could be taking care of business. Only called 911 once. Well, actually twice since there was no response. Wife talked to dispatcher while I confronted BGs out in front yard for twenty minutes. They finally backed down and left. Cops never arrived. Next day a woman cop had to shoot one of the BGs I had encountered when she cornered him on a neighbor's porch.
There were six of them when I was confronting them. Yes, on second thought, take an extra magazine in your shorts.

**OldMarksman** · November 4, 2009, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Shouldn't I gather the family in one place, hunker down and make just one shot count if the situation comes to that? Have my GF and kids behind me so they are safe, if the door to the room opens, that is the point of engagement.

That's what all of the instructors and experts say.

Understand that the best course of action may differ if you live out in the country. The risk of ambush won't be any less serious, but other risks may be added to the decision tree.

Quote:

Again, i'm not trying to start anything, I honestly don't understand,and would like to learn.

Good. I suggest reading everything you can by Massad Ayoob, taking some training, and trying to catch either Personal Defense TV or The Best Defense or both on television. Note that some episodes will show the clearing of a house, and also note that they will tell you to not try it unless you absolutely have to. Makes good television entertainment, I guess.

Here's a training course to look for:

http://pun.org/courses.html#PP

MLeake · November 4, 2009, 03:01 PM

DRice.72,

There are multiple possible responses to your question, and the right answer varies with each shooter. I'll give you my take, based on my perception of my abilities, and possible scenarios.

First, when it comes to handgun shooting, I've been shooting handguns pretty regularly since I was 15, and that was closer to three decades ago than two.

I've only entered two competitions (GSSF), and in the amateur division of the second one I placed 13th out of 79 entrants, with a gun that I'd only shot 500 rounds through, including the first competition. Most shooters I know don't compete, so when it comes to Joe Shooter, I'm usually higher up in the food chain. At the public ranges I frequent, the norm is that the only shooters at my level are certain members of the staff.

With rifles, I'm decent. I don't shoot them as often. I've qualified expert with both the M16 and M4, as well as the M9 for both Navy and Army ranges, so I've got the "E" on my Navy rifle and pistol ribbons/medals, but that isn't necessarily saying a whole lot.

With shotguns, I'm not bad, but I know a lot of people who are much better at trap, skeet, etc, than I am. (I've only attempted skeet on two occasions) But I can get very decent 50yd groups with slugs - using a shotgun like a rifle.

However, I still believe in having extra magazines and/or backup weapons, because:

Second, Stuff Happens.

For instance, the BG may not go down to one shot, so it may be impossible to "make one shot count." I assume I'll have a decent hit percentage, but I have no way of knowing how any particular BG will respond to being hit, and frankly nothing short of a CNS off switch (spine or brain) is guaranteed to immediately stop his aggression. It's entirely possible for a BG to take a heart, aorta, or lung hit and still keep up the attack, for a limited time.

Or, magazines can fail, in which case it's nice to be able to slap in another one.

Or, the primary can just plain break, which while unlikely is possible - Murphy is always waiting.

Or, circumstances could occur which make having a backup weapon favorable. For instance, BG aborbs hit and closes to contact range, or multiple BG's charge. He/they grab long gun. I can wrestle for it - which I'm actually pretty good at due to lots of practice with bokken and Jo staff retention and takedown drills in aikido (brown belt equivalent) - or I can just keep one hand on it while I draw a handgun, stick it under the guy's jaw, and pull the trigger.

Note: Have played with this drill with inert training pistols and other MA practitioner partners, and I'm very good at it.

Which option sounds better to you?

For the outdoor scenarios, with animals, I could find myself in a scenario where I can't get enough distance to use the rifle, so a magnum revolver in an accessible holster is nice to have.

Third I haven't been in a gunfight, so despite my thousands of hours of range time I still might find that my hit percentage goes way down when lead starts flying. Since I have handled high stress scenarios pretty well in my own specialty (IE engine failures, fires etc on aircraft - I was a Navy pilot, and now fly gov't contract), without much noticeable degradation in performance, I don't personally think that my shooting will get much worse under stress, but I can't know that with certainty.

Last If an intruder is in the house, I may not have any option but a gunfight - under most circumstances I won't go out looking for him, I'll just arm up and let him know a) the cops are coming and b) we're armed and annoyed, while the lady is on the phone with 911. However, he/they may opt to come looking for us, or they may just stumble on in by accident.

Home invasions are a rising trend, and some of those BG's are very much looking for the homeowners. While this typically happens in the homes of those who are in the drug trade, it sometimes happens to people just because their house looks nice and might have a safe with stocks, bonds, cash, jewelry... and it also sometimes happens because more and more meth labs are moving out to the 'burbs, and sometimes the bad guys get the wrong house.

DRice.72 · November 4, 2009, 04:44 PM

Thank you for the responses, they reinforce my intention to consult a professional before going to far with my HD plan. I do see where different situations may warrant additional action/ preparedness.

WW2 · November 4, 2009, 08:07 PM

Before the "bump in the night" a good plan involves hardening your home. This will give you the safe room to protect your family and loved ones. While hardening your home, why not place a few strategic low light cameras in the house that you can view on a TV in your safe room?

This way, you can stay in your protective space and still QUICKLY search the entire house. If you spot one or more BGs you now know exactly where they are and what they are doing. This is a great tactical advantage that keeps you relatively out of harms way. If warranted, a couple of outdoor cameras also come in to play. Many are wireless and battery operated so a system can be devised that will work even if the BG cuts the power.

I know that the layout of my home makes about half of the home an extreme danger area where a BG could easily hide and ambush anyone entering that section from the other half of the house. So, cameras are the real solution so I can see what is going on in the danger area without risking my personal safety.

Although it is a really cheesy site, http://x10.com/homepage.htm has the equipment you could use for this type of hardening.

**OldMarksman** · November 5, 2009, 08:01 AM

Quote:

While hardening your home, why not place a few strategic low light cameras in the house that you can view on a TV in your safe room? This way, you can stay in your protective space and still QUICKLY search the entire house.

Excellent suggestion!

Parapliers · November 5, 2009, 11:39 AM

Better have a weeks supply of food in there and adequate ventilation. You're going to have to come out sometime. Then you will have to clear the house. Beside the fact that calling 911 doesn't guarantee a response. There are cell phone blockers on the market. The ninja BGs have cut the phone and power and they have a cell phone blocker and they are better trained than you will ever be.
I read "The Armed Citizen" in "American Rifleman" I don't see these kinds of scenarios. Hollywood loves to portray a helpless public. How many people have bomb shelters these days? NBC attack is more likely than the kind of home invasion that we are discussing.
A friend who lives about 2 miles down the road from me had a couple of bank robbers end their high speed chase in his driveway. The heavily armed BGs barged in to his house and took the family hostage. The police were right there and set up a perimeter. After they filled their canteens and thermoses and had lunch delivered they proceeded to shoot my friends house to pieces. The family and BGs were in the same boat (storm cellar) until a surrender was negotiated. Might want to keep extra food and supplies in safe room for the home invaders in case this scenario recurs.

Glenn E. Meyer · November 5, 2009, 12:18 PM

How a tunnel out of the storm cellar that no one knows about but the family?

**OldMarksman** · November 5, 2009, 12:43 PM

Quote:

NBC attack is more likely than the kind of home invasion that we are discussing.

The facts that home invasions do occur from time to time in many communities and that nuclear, biological or chemical attacks have yet to be made to any residences in this country would give the lie to that assertion. Personally, I have experienced three home invasions or serous violent attempts in about forty years, (actually, all within four years some time ago), two in a good suburban neighborhood and one in a remote cabin. There have been several in the news in our area since the weekend; in one, one of the homeowners was killed, and in another, the burglar acquired new real estate.

However, it is true that the likelihood of a home invasion is undoubtedly very low indeed--perhaps on the order of "remote", in risk management terms. However, the trend is on the upswing, as MLeake points out.

The problem is that the potential consequences are arguably very severe.

Given that combination, some would choose to accept the risk without mitigation. Others, including probably most of the persons on this forum, would choose some form of mitigation, and I am among them. The NRA course linked above would be a good place to start, and there have been other good suggestions above.

One could apply the same kind of risk management technique in the selection of a defensive strategy to be followed should an invasion occur. For clearing the house, the likelihood of being ambushed, given the empirical data provided above by Glenn E. Meyer and by Mas Ayoob via Fiddletown, would have to be assessed as "probable"; common sense would back that up. The potential consequences would have to be assessed as extremely severe. By no reasonable measure could that risk be considered acceptable.

The mitigation technique most often responsibly recommended by knowledgeable persons is to let the threat come to you. The likelihood of being killed or injured is reduced greatly.

November 4, 2009, 11:04 AM	#37
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	Having been to the NTI three times - as a FOG - I'm staying put unless forced to, if I think there is a serious threat and there is no one to rescue from immediate harm. I also have been to a fun FOF class with Karl Rehn from www.krtraining.com. We were in a bedroom. Two burglars break in. Deal with it. Most of the newbies who decided to go see or confront - died. The intruders were trained instructors. My experience in being a school shooter in a warren of rooms vs. an entry team of variable experience demonstrated to me how ambushes could be very effective. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

November 4, 2009, 02:18 PM	#40
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	The lady and the dog... and fire The lady can shoot reasonably well. Her favorite long gun is the 12ga 870, so that defaults to her in my scheme. Her favorite handguns are situationally dependent; for larger critters, she likes the GP100 with 180gr HC Buffalo Bore, and for 'yotes and others she likes either the CZ PCR 9mm or the SIG P220 .45acp. Since she likes the shotgun, I end up with the Garand or 700ADL (Garand if I'm going to explore outdoors, the scoped ADL if I'm going to be stationary by the house) for suspected bear, and the AR for 'yotes or 2-legged. For bear, I'd take the .44Mag as backup; for other, probably the big CZ75 9mm. The dog is a Jack Russell. She's a good alarm system, and very good at indicating the direction of the threat, but once she gives me the general point, she's staying inside. Too small to defend herself against anything of note, and I don't want the distraction of having to defend her. Need to get another big dog, but currently I travel a lot for work. The lady wants to wait until I have more home time in order to break in a new dog. Last, as far as fire goes, when I brought up that possibility a few people immediately thought of arson. While that's a possibility, I was thinking more in terms of: Lightning strike; or Surge/short in main power line to the barn; or Blown water heater (we have hot and cold water in the barn, for washing horses) So, arson is a possibility, but there are other, likelier causes. The point I was trying to make there is that there are an abundance of things that go bump in the night, or that scare the animals, that are not human invaders, and that might actually require immediate attention if catastrophe is to be averted.

November 4, 2009, 02:32 PM	#41
DRice.72 Senior Member Join Date: October 19, 2009 Location: Western North Carolina Posts: 451	Trying to learn. I have a question. I ask my question not to be smart or put any of these methods down, but to understand. I have no training in HD so this is most likely where my lack of understanding comes from. In my current thinking, if I need more than one clip of ammunition from my pistol, or more than is in the magazine of my shotgun. I see (in my limited knowledge) two main reasons) #1) I need that many shots to engage a BG or #2) I have that many BG to engage. So if its #1 and I'm that bad a shot, I need not have a HD weapon, as I'm putting everyone around me in more danger than if the BG just took the plasma tv and left with it. If its #2 do I really need to be in a gun fight in my home with that many BG? Shouldn't I gather the family in one place, hunker down and make just one shot count if the situation comes to that? Have my GF and kids behind me so they are safe, if the door to the room opens, that is the point of engagement. Again, i'm not trying to start anything, I honestly don't understand,and would like to learn. __________________ They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety - Benjamin Franklin Light is faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright unitl you hear them speak! They should have stopped with "Congress shall make no Law...

November 4, 2009, 03:01 PM	#44
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	Number of shots, etc... DRice.72, There are multiple possible responses to your question, and the right answer varies with each shooter. I'll give you my take, based on my perception of my abilities, and possible scenarios. First, when it comes to handgun shooting, I've been shooting handguns pretty regularly since I was 15, and that was closer to three decades ago than two. I've only entered two competitions (GSSF), and in the amateur division of the second one I placed 13th out of 79 entrants, with a gun that I'd only shot 500 rounds through, including the first competition. Most shooters I know don't compete, so when it comes to Joe Shooter, I'm usually higher up in the food chain. At the public ranges I frequent, the norm is that the only shooters at my level are certain members of the staff. With rifles, I'm decent. I don't shoot them as often. I've qualified expert with both the M16 and M4, as well as the M9 for both Navy and Army ranges, so I've got the "E" on my Navy rifle and pistol ribbons/medals, but that isn't necessarily saying a whole lot. With shotguns, I'm not bad, but I know a lot of people who are much better at trap, skeet, etc, than I am. (I've only attempted skeet on two occasions) But I can get very decent 50yd groups with slugs - using a shotgun like a rifle. However, I still believe in having extra magazines and/or backup weapons, because: Second, Stuff Happens. For instance, the BG may not go down to one shot, so it may be impossible to "make one shot count." I assume I'll have a decent hit percentage, but I have no way of knowing how any particular BG will respond to being hit, and frankly nothing short of a CNS off switch (spine or brain) is guaranteed to immediately stop his aggression. It's entirely possible for a BG to take a heart, aorta, or lung hit and still keep up the attack, for a limited time. Or, magazines can fail, in which case it's nice to be able to slap in another one. Or, the primary can just plain break, which while unlikely is possible - Murphy is always waiting. Or, circumstances could occur which make having a backup weapon favorable. For instance, BG aborbs hit and closes to contact range, or multiple BG's charge. He/they grab long gun. I can wrestle for it - which I'm actually pretty good at due to lots of practice with bokken and Jo staff retention and takedown drills in aikido (brown belt equivalent) - or I can just keep one hand on it while I draw a handgun, stick it under the guy's jaw, and pull the trigger. Note: Have played with this drill with inert training pistols and other MA practitioner partners, and I'm very good at it. Which option sounds better to you? For the outdoor scenarios, with animals, I could find myself in a scenario where I can't get enough distance to use the rifle, so a magnum revolver in an accessible holster is nice to have. Third I haven't been in a gunfight, so despite my thousands of hours of range time I still might find that my hit percentage goes way down when lead starts flying. Since I have handled high stress scenarios pretty well in my own specialty (IE engine failures, fires etc on aircraft - I was a Navy pilot, and now fly gov't contract), without much noticeable degradation in performance, I don't personally think that my shooting will get much worse under stress, but I can't know that with certainty. Last If an intruder is in the house, I may not have any option but a gunfight - under most circumstances I won't go out looking for him, I'll just arm up and let him know a) the cops are coming and b) we're armed and annoyed, while the lady is on the phone with 911. However, he/they may opt to come looking for us, or they may just stumble on in by accident. Home invasions are a rising trend, and some of those BG's are very much looking for the homeowners. While this typically happens in the homes of those who are in the drug trade, it sometimes happens to people just because their house looks nice and might have a safe with stocks, bonds, cash, jewelry... and it also sometimes happens because more and more meth labs are moving out to the 'burbs, and sometimes the bad guys get the wrong house.

November 4, 2009, 04:44 PM	#45
DRice.72 Senior Member Join Date: October 19, 2009 Location: Western North Carolina Posts: 451	Thank you for the responses, they reinforce my intention to consult a professional before going to far with my HD plan. I do see where different situations may warrant additional action/ preparedness. __________________ They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety - Benjamin Franklin Light is faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright unitl you hear them speak! They should have stopped with "Congress shall make no Law...

November 4, 2009, 06:42 AM	#30
Uncle Billy Senior Member Join Date: June 10, 2009 Location: Small city in New York Posts: 482	The OP was asking about jumping into action in the middle of the night in his shorts- where does all the gear go? Sort of like the picture of that soldier from Texas in Afghanistan in "I love New York" pink undies, slippers and his body armor and helmet in a bunker under fire. I'll bet he got some baloney for that from the other guys in his unit. I thought about being in that situation and came up with the idea of my trap shooting vest- lots of pockets for handguns, lights, clips, shells, etc., on in a jiffy, doesn't impede movement.

November 4, 2009, 08:23 AM	#31
CWPinSC Junior member Join Date: July 1, 2009 Posts: 863	Think about it: Is your TV worth a gunfight you might not win? Seriously, people - death is sorta permanent. No, the intruder doesn't enter a house just to "hunker down". But when he hears you moving around, he will either leave or freeze in hiding. If he's armed, the latter case makes him EXTREMELY dangerous. Especially if he's a multi-time loser, he has more to gain (freedom/escape) by killing you than you have to gain (saving that TV) by killing him. Clearing Scenario: 1. Unless you have night vision, you will have to show or turn on a light to see where he is. That targets you. A flashlight or gun-mounted tac light beam is a wonderful bullseye. You'll light him up about the same time he pulls his trigger. 2. Unless you're a ninja, you will make noise as you search. Floors creak and door hinges squeak. Now he knows exactly where you are. 3. He can remain silent and in concealment while you come to him. You'll be gunfighting on his turf, on his terms. 4. In the dark, the human eye detects movement first. He's frozen, you're moving. Guess who will see who first? Those of you who have served (especially in Vietnam) know about ambushes. First shot = first kill You: Showing light Making noise Moving Him: In the dark Silent Still Guess who wins... Now, try it this way: The alarm goes off and you hear noises. You have reason to believe someone has entered your house. Grab the family and get in your defense room. Ideally, this is a room at the end of a hall with only one entrance, like an upstairs bedroom. It has a solid core door with 3" hinge/lock screws and a dead bolt. The hall can be brightly lit and the room stay in darkness. Get in there, bolt the door, aim all weapons at the door. Call 911. "Home invasion happening NOW. There is someone in my house NOW. I am in the upstairs bedroom. I am armed. I am in imminent fear of my life." Stay on the phone until the situation is resolved. Now, compare this scenario with Clearing Scenario: Defending Scenario: 1. You're in the dark and can see clearly into a lighted area. 2. You're silent. He's making noise looking around. 3. He has to come to you. Now you're gunfighting on your turf, with your concealment and tactics. 4. You're still, he's moving. Guess who sees who first? If he enters the door - you know what to do. Again, first shot = first kill, but guess who makes it this time? I apologize for becoming repetitive in this post, but I'm trying to emphasize a point. None of us are professional gunfighters. Very few of us have had tactical training. We're not being paid/trained to do this. All of us will be so scared we'll be wetting ourselves (I know, I've been there). BTW, being afraid doesn't make you a coward. No property, I repeat, NOTHING in our house is worth our lives. I assure you all - if he comes for me or my family, I'll be empty or dead before he wins. But, if he doesn't...I and my family are safe and unharmed. THAT'S a winner!

November 4, 2009, 09:24 AM	#32
OldMarksman Staff Join Date: June 8, 2008 Posts: 4,022	Interesting that everyone who has ever trained to clear a structure for professional reasons who has ever offered a post on the subject says he won't try it. All trainers say don't do it. All books written by knowledgeable say don't do it--they say to say let the threat come to you. As sworn officers, the pros have to do it; but they do not work individually, they wear protective gear, and they use things that you cannot lawfully own and would not want to set off in your house. The National Tactical Invitational results are completely convincing to me. Home court advantage? That'll help you find your way to the kitchen, but it won't defend you from bullets fired from ambush when you have put yourself in plain view of someone who is waiting for whomever comes into view. Those who traipse around with gun in hand put themselves at risk so extreme as to be unacceptable to any thinking person who understands it. Unlike what happens in the movies (the ones shown on the screen and the ones people play in their minds), there's no audience who knows where the bad guy is, and there's no screenwriter to prevent him from firing first so the story won't end badly. If the homeowner happens to see someone before he has been shot, he has the obligation, the castle doctrine notwithstanding, to assure himself that the man is not a neighbor or a returning child or a policeman before he fires. The bad guy or guys does not. And if there are two, the homeowner may be shot from more than one direction. Most of the home invasions around here recently have involved more than one crook. I've done it a couple of times over the decades, but that was before I spent more than a minute or two thinking about it after reading the first book I saw on the subject. Things came out OK both times....that's because there was no one there. High Noon was on the other day. Great movie. But did it ever occur to anyone that Gary Cooper's walking around with gun in hand looking for several miscreants, while it made excellent drama, was completely unrealistic and more than extremely dangerous?

November 4, 2009, 09:42 AM	#33
TailGator Senior Member Join Date: May 8, 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 3,787	There have been a lot of adamantly expressed opinions in this thread, but I would like to call attention to the modest and unassuming post by "Greg TX" (Post #19). Instead of subscribing to a one-size-fits-all rule, he has thought about the layout of his house, where occupants will be, and what exposure he would suffer with different strategies and different locations, and come up with an individualized strategy uniquely adapted to his situation that he can implement on a moment's notice. THAT is good tactics. Just the opinion of one chubby little grey-beard.

November 4, 2009, 01:14 PM	#39
CWPinSC Junior member Join Date: July 1, 2009 Posts: 863	I will agree there isn't a general answer that covers 100% of the situations. In my house, my bedroom is downstairs and my daughter's upstairs. The alarm squalls the instant the door is opened. 15 seconds later, the security company comes on the loud speaker and asks for a password. I can talk to them from any room in the house and be heard. "Home invasion, send police." gets them moving immediately. My 60 pound pit bull, 70 pound Plot Hound mix, and 45 pound terrier mix are going absolutely APE. They are barking at the intruder and at the alarm. They HATE that sound. While this is going on, my wife and I are covering the entrance to our bedroom and the access to the stairs to the second floor. Nothing can get by. We have no other family members or people who should have access to my house uninvited. Anything that moves into my field of sight gets wasted. I guess it's more simple for me than others. If I had livestock out in the far country, I'd probably go out looking for bear or other predators - probably with a pump shotgun and/or major caliber revolver (.454 casull, maybe?). If I had family at the other end of the house - for sure I'd go to them. But I don't, there's only one bedroom downstairs. If your alarm goes off instantly, and the dogs bark even before that, you have a few seconds to get the family to safety and into position. BTW, my wife shoots almost as well as I do. My daughter also shoots and is very proficient, as is her boyfriend (who lives with us). I don't worry about their safety too much. They can take care of themselves if I can't get to them. My dogs bark differently at a person than other things. Yours probably do, too. You learn to recognize the difference and react accordingly.

November 4, 2009, 08:07 PM	#46
WW2 Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2009 Location: Southern California. Posts: 254	Hunker down and Clear House at same time... Before the "bump in the night" a good plan involves hardening your home. This will give you the safe room to protect your family and loved ones. While hardening your home, why not place a few strategic low light cameras in the house that you can view on a TV in your safe room? This way, you can stay in your protective space and still QUICKLY search the entire house. If you spot one or more BGs you now know exactly where they are and what they are doing. This is a great tactical advantage that keeps you relatively out of harms way. If warranted, a couple of outdoor cameras also come in to play. Many are wireless and battery operated so a system can be devised that will work even if the BG cuts the power. I know that the layout of my home makes about half of the home an extreme danger area where a BG could easily hide and ambush anyone entering that section from the other half of the house. So, cameras are the real solution so I can see what is going on in the danger area without risking my personal safety. Although it is a really cheesy site, http://x10.com/homepage.htm has the equipment you could use for this type of hardening.

November 5, 2009, 11:39 AM	#48
Parapliers Junior member Join Date: June 10, 2009 Location: Indiana Posts: 98	Safe Room Better have a weeks supply of food in there and adequate ventilation. You're going to have to come out sometime. Then you will have to clear the house. Beside the fact that calling 911 doesn't guarantee a response. There are cell phone blockers on the market. The ninja BGs have cut the phone and power and they have a cell phone blocker and they are better trained than you will ever be. I read "The Armed Citizen" in "American Rifleman" I don't see these kinds of scenarios. Hollywood loves to portray a helpless public. How many people have bomb shelters these days? NBC attack is more likely than the kind of home invasion that we are discussing. A friend who lives about 2 miles down the road from me had a couple of bank robbers end their high speed chase in his driveway. The heavily armed BGs barged in to his house and took the family hostage. The police were right there and set up a perimeter. After they filled their canteens and thermoses and had lunch delivered they proceeded to shoot my friends house to pieces. The family and BGs were in the same boat (storm cellar) until a surrender was negotiated. Might want to keep extra food and supplies in safe room for the home invaders in case this scenario recurs.

November 5, 2009, 12:18 PM	#49
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	How a tunnel out of the storm cellar that no one knows about but the family? __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens