To Swag, or Not to Swag?

[James Kain]

I v been reloading now for about 3 years. I v gotten to the point where I m shooting anywhere from 50 to 500rds a month. I also cast some of my own bullets. But with the volume I m shooting, would it be worth the investment to start swaging?



(only wish my reloading room was heated in the barn! -20*F sucks for reloading......)

[Big Caliber]

Sometimes I'm really stupid...just what exactly is swaging?

[James Kain]

The Fallowing is COPIED from WIKIPEDIA.

In internal ballistics, swaging describes the process of the bullet entering the barrel and being squeezed to conform to the rifling. Most firearm bullets are made slightly larger than the inside diameter of the barrel, so that they are swaged to engage the rifling and form a tight seal upon firing. Compare to obturate.

In ammunition manufacture, swaged bullets are bullets manufactured by swaging room temperature metals into a die to form it into the shape of a bullet. The other common manufacturing method is casting, which uses molten metals poured into a mold. Since metals expand when heated and contract when cooled, cast bullets must be cast with a mold slightly larger than the desired finish size, so that as the molten metal cools, it will harden at just the right point to shrink to the desired size. In contrast, swaged bullets, since they are formed at the temperature at which they will be used, can be formed in molds of the exact desired size. This means that swaged bullets are generally more precise than cast bullets. The swaging process also leads to fewer imperfections, since voids commonly found in casting would be pressed out in the swaging process. The swaging process in reference to cold flow of metals into bullets is the process not of squeezing the metals into smaller forms but rather pressing smaller thinner items to form into shorter and slightly wider shapes.

Individuals who make their own bullets usually are not aware of available manual specialized equipment and dies required for swaging bullets, and thus choose to make cast bullets. To get high precision results, it is common to cast the bullets slightly oversized, then swage the resulting castings through a die to do the final forming. Since the amount of pressure required to size the bullet is far less than that required to form a bullet, a simple mechanical press can be used, often the same press used for handloading ammunition.

Swaging bullets using the cold flow method with manual hand tools, presses and dies is often credited to Ted Smith, author of the 45 page book The Bullet Swage Manual.

Many reloading equipment manufacturers started by marketing both reloading and bullet swaging dies and equipment. Historically many swage dies sold by well known reloading manufacturing companies were actually made by Ted Smith in his die shop then stamped with the name of the marketing company.

All of the larger manufacturers of reloading equipment have abandoned making or marketing bullet swaging equipment due to the downturn in the popularity of the manual methods and the subsequent loss of sales. Currently there are only a few die makers who manufacture and market bullet swaging equipment, three die and equipment makers CH/4D, RCE, and Corbin manufacture the bulk of bullet swaging equipment in the United States.

The Info you have just read was copy and pasted from Wikipedia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swage#F...and_ammunition

[72V]

And this is from:

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/swagging

I assume you meant "swaging", not "swagging" LOL

[LHB1]

James,
Just my opinion (based on reloading lead bullets since 1964) but I avoid swaged lead bullets like the plague! The lead alloy for swaging is much softer than that normally used for cast lead bullets and has a bad reputation for leading barrels excessively. I shoot ONLY hard cast lead bullets in my .45 ACP and .44 Mag pistols at velocities up to 1425 fps. Excellent accuracy and no problems with leading as long as you use a good lube. FWIW I shoot bullets in .45 ACP measuring .451", .4515", and .452" with equally good results.

[James Kain]

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/swage

Sorry about that spelling error!

[James Kain]

LHB1
I was thinking about doing the copper jacketed swage bullets. Due to the volume of fire I put down range every month, I was hopping that I could save some money (and sometimes gas) in buying bullets.
I love casting my own bullets, I don't think I would like to swage straight lead due to the leading alone.

[darkgael]

Some years ago, I picked up a "CSP" swaging press from Corbin (http://www.corbins.com/prcsp-1.htm.) Think of a heavy duty reloading press on steroids. A finely made machine. The dies are expensive (the die and punch set for making LSWC bullets - one caliber - is $179). I acquired dies (over time) to make .44 Keith style bullets, .45 ACP RN and SWC, with either a rn/shoulder for paper patching as well as a .458 pointed bullet.
What I use most is the paper patch die for my 45-70 and for a 577-450.
Swaging enough bullets to use for practice and/or match work with the 45 ACP is just not worth it as the process is not particularly quick. Plus, yes, the lead needed to swage is soft and so a copper "base guard" must be swaged on with each, kind of a gas check. It's a lot easier to cast what you need.
I have found it useful for experimenting - swaging up .45 slugs to shoot in a big bore airgun, swaging .452 FMJ ammo up to .458 so I can try it in a 45-70, that sort of thing.
Pete

[James Kain]

What I m really looking to cast for is my 6.5x55 Swedish Mauser. I m quite fond of BTSP's. So that us what I m looking to start making. I also may try my hand a mid sized and smaller .308 cal for 308-win and 30.06.
I cast using wheal weights. Would that be a issue swaging copper jacketed BTSP's?
Now only if I can get free powder and primers!

[LHB1]

James,
I thought you were just going to swage soft lead bullets for pistols, didn't realize you planned to swage jacketed bullets for rifles. I tried using hard cast lead bullets for rifles many years ago with mixed results. Had good results up to 1800-2000 fps with SAECO RG-4 cast bullet with gas check (now sold by Redding) in .308 Win. Had horrible results (keyholing, HUGE leading) with Lyman bullet for .338 Win Mag at any velocity. Key things for rifle cast lead bullets are good bullet design, good lube, good alloy (at least as hard as straight wheel weights), and keep the velocity below 2000 fps. My favorite lube is the NRA ALOX formula (50% pure beeswax and 50% ALOX). This is a fairly soft lube but gives EXCELLENT accuracy and very little/no leading with many pistol loads.

[Ruger4570]

Back in the late 60's I bought a C&H swaging press. It was for making half jacket bullets. A couple of years ago I tossed the whole set up in the trash. I used it to make slugs for my Colt Python. If you know your Colt Pythons you know it was probably the highest quality pistol ever made.
I spent hours scrubbing lead out of the bore. Swaged bullets just lead up your bore, unless you shoot them at greatly reduced velocities.

[James Kain]

I have been using the molly lube in my RCBS lube-sizer. I use wheal weights for my lead. it was 10bucks for a 5 gal pal of 150lbs of wheal weights! Figure 10% loss for crap and the steal clips and none lead and sticky gunk. But the lyman mold I have works in my Springfield 1903-A1! But not so great in my Mauser re-barrel to a 308win. (That gun was a cheap buy. Hell the scope cost more!)
I m about to try the molly powder lube on top of the Lyman Molly lube. I m kind of fond of the molly, because I used to use a lot of it in the Army in the gear boxes of the main gun on the Bradly.

But I m still looking for someone who knows a bit about the copper jacket swage. I d love to start that but I would like to get more info from someone who has done/dose it. If there is anyone in Maine who dose it I d love to see it work!

[Big Caliber]

James Kain, thankyou very much, BC.

[James Kain]

Well I did have to go back and fix some miss spellings. But your welcome. I saw something on it sometime ago, ever sense I saw someone making there own copper jacketed bullets, I began to drool. I wanted to at least try it! I v looked in to it. But I m hoping that someone will have a nice bit of info to help me along to start making my own BT SP's in 6.5(.264) and .308!

I also cant wait to buy a house so I can really get my own reloading space! I mean a real one not a old horse stall that i m using now.......But it dose the job.

[darkgael]

James: Go to the Corbin website that I supplied in my first post in this thread. Follow his menu to info about swaging. There's a lot there.
About swaging jacketed boat-tailed bullets: Yes, you can do it. Without automated equipment, it is a slow process. The necessary dies are costly. Sets of five or six dies may be needed and those run about $1000 to $1200 a set. And you still have to get a press.
It's not something that you do to save money.
Pete

[James Kain]

I received a email from Richard Corbin, it reads

Before reading this, I would like to Tank Richard Corbin for this info. It was much appreciated.

"To make the bullet wanted you would need either the Walnut Hill or the Sea Girt press. The Walnut Hill can reload and swage larger bullets than the Sea Girt press. If you don't need to make .50 BMG or some of the extreme long range bullets (.338 or 416 VLD types for example) and don't need the reloading capability the Sea Girt is more than adequate. The Walnut Hill press is $349.00 and the Sea Girt is $249.00.

The cost of the dies would depend on whether you want to make flat base, rebated boattail, open tip, or soft point bullets. If you are shooting targets at ranges out to five hundred yards the flat base open tip will do a good job. If you are shooting game or targets beyond 500 yards a rebated boattail bullet will be better. For game the open tip is OK but a soft point is more certain to expand well.

A three die set to make flat base, open tip bullets is 482.00. A rebated boattail die set that would make an RBT, open tip bullet is 688.00. The lead tip reform die that would make the soft point is $139.00 and could be added to either the flat base or the RBT die set at any time.

In addition to the press and dies you would need lead wire and a core cutter or a core mould to make the rough cores that would be swaged in the core form die, the first die in any set. If you have casting gear now I would suggest using the core mould but lead wire is always ready to be used anytime you have a moment to make bullets.

Pure lead should be used for most bullets but a small amount of antimony can be added. An antimony/lead mix up to 6% antimony can be used. However since the bullets are jacketed leading is not an issue so pure lead usually makes the best hunting bullets and does fine for target bullets. There is some slight improvement in target bullets if an antimony lead is used but it is usually not noticed except with very fast twist rates and very high velocities.
Wheel weights are OK for cast pistol bullets but not much else.

Richard Corbin"
Thank You again Richard Corbin for this email