My group moves down and to the left during rapid fire.

Saab1911 · September 20, 2008, 07:38 PM

Today, I started out shooting slow deliberate fire. With the Glock, I put
forty five of fifty shots in the ten ring from 7 yards. With a 686 revolver, I
put all fifty shots in the ten ring.

Then, I tried rapid fire. Increase in group size was not unexpected. The
occasional flier was also expected, but I was chagrined to find that the
group moved left and down by two inches in each direction.

Is there a way to get my rapid fire group to be centered around my point
of aim? How do I diagnose what I'm doing wrong during rapid fire?
I don't want to change my point of aim.

Cheers,

Jae

pax · September 20, 2008, 07:58 PM

Jae ~

Go buy yourself some snap caps. Mix them randomly in your magazine along with your live ammunition, and do the same kind of shooting. You'll be able to make your own diagnosis after that ...

www.corneredcat.com/Basics/flinch.aspx

pax

Walther22lr · September 20, 2008, 08:07 PM

I agree. Try some snap caps in the mag. But I would have someone else load the mag for you. That way you will not know when, if and how many "duds" are in the mag.

pax · September 20, 2008, 08:13 PM

Walther,

Sure. Or he could fill multiple magazines at a time, and then mix them around before selecting one to load into the gun. Either way, the goal is being surprised by the contents.

pax

Saab1911 · September 20, 2008, 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pax

Go buy yourself some snap caps. Mix them randomly in your magazine along with your live ammunition, and do the same kind of shooting. You'll be able to make your own diagnosis after that ...

Thanks for the link!

You're right. Now that I think about it, it must be a flinch.

I have the slow, steady trigger pull and surprise break pretty much mastered
during slow, deliberate fire, but I guess transfering that skill to rapid fire
is going to take some training.

Walther22lr · September 20, 2008, 08:26 PM

Pax, after posting my response I went to the link you posted www.corneredcat.com/Basics/flinch.aspx and I really like your idea of multiple magazines for this test!
I should have read it first before posting my previous response. I have a several mags for my 1911 and will try this myself, great idea! Thanks!

armedandsafe · September 20, 2008, 09:29 PM

I had a similar problem (down and right, as I'm a lefty pistol shooter.) I had an instructor tell me I was waiting to trip the trigger on recovery from the previous shot until I had the sight picture. He wanted me to signal my finger to trip as I was coming onto the picture, so the oversweep would bring me onto target.

Just a thought.

Pops

Casimer · September 20, 2008, 09:31 PM

Another factor may be that your grip is shifting - e.g. if the series starts where you want it but then gradually walks down to the left.

Dash · September 20, 2008, 10:27 PM

you are jerking the trigger in rapid fire. use your surprise break, in time youll speed up. use bill drills

vox rationis · September 20, 2008, 11:14 PM

did you say low and to the left

Very common, and I agree with everyone..mix some snap caps and you'll see how badly you are flinching, anticipating the recoil. When I get back in form my rapid fire groups do center as I work to lose the almost instinctual flinch, but that flinch comes back all to easily when out of form. The rhythm of following the front sight back on target, all the meanwhile prepping the trigger to let the next shot off exactly as soon as you have front sight on target, without flinching in anticipation of the recoil is definitely a perishable skill.

Lurper · September 21, 2008, 11:46 AM

You're jerking the trigger. There are several things you can do to fix it. If you like shooting your 686, put a quarter on the end of the barrel. Practice pulling the trigger without dislodging the quarter. With enough practice you'll be able to pull the trigger smoothly and quickly. With your Glock, dry fire or when you live fire, fire a magazine at the berm as fast as you can press the trigger while focusing on a smooth trigger press- I call that "resetting your mind".

What you have is a timing problem. What happens right after you press the trigger? The round fires right? Then what? The gun recoils. What do you do then? Bring the gun back on target. This is the problem with "Ball and dummy" drills. Most people aren't at a level where they can tell if the muzzle moves before or after the hammer falls. If it moves after, you don' have a problem because that is what you normally do when you shoot. It's when it moves BEFORE the hammer falls that you have an issue. I can guarantee that if you put a dummy round in my magazine that the muzzle will dip when I reach it. Doesn't worry me a bit because I know that it dipped after the hammer fell. Yet the unskilled observer's automatic reaction is usually "dude, you got a bad flinch".

What is probably happening is you are playing "gotcha" with the trigger. That is when you start pressing the trigger smoothly, but your conscious mind becomes impatient and "says okay smooth press, press, okay now!" and you jerk the last part of the travel which causes the muzzle to move. To fix it, practice the "surprise break". Press the trigger slowly and smoothly until the shot breaks. It should surprise you when it does. If you can tell when the shot is going to break, you are not presssing the trigger correctly. Even when shooting extremely fast, it should surprise you when the shot breaks. Work on that for awhile and you will see improvement.

There are a couple of other things you could be doing like moving your entire hand instead of just your trigger finger when you press the trigger. But, by dryfiring and working on a surprise break, you will correct those as well.

Glenn E. Meyer · September 21, 2008, 11:53 AM

Seeing you are in Austin, check out www.krtraining.com - they offer excellent courses on the basics of handgun use.

Tuckahoe · September 21, 2008, 07:40 PM

I used to have a business card from an indoor range that gave tips based on where your bullets struck the target. Too tight a grip, too loose, jerking the trigger, ect... pretty neat wish I could find it. Anyone else seen one?

TripIII · September 23, 2008, 08:38 PM

Releasing the hammer/striker vice pulling the trigger requires thousands of hammer releases whether putting bullets down range or dry firing. It's a muscle memory/mental thing.

Releasing the hammer in quick succession requires thousands more, and very frequent practice.

I have come to the conclusion that I will never be able to afford to be really good and really fast. I'll just settle for really good.

BikerRN · September 24, 2008, 12:16 AM

Two things I would recommend.

First, slow down because you are jerking the trigger trying too shoot fast.

Second, slow down, the speed will come with time.

Biker

September 20, 2008, 07:38 PM	#1
Saab1911 Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2008 Location: Los Angeles, Kalifornia Posts: 1,176	My group moves down and to the left during rapid fire. Today, I started out shooting slow deliberate fire. With the Glock, I put forty five of fifty shots in the ten ring from 7 yards. With a 686 revolver, I put all fifty shots in the ten ring. Then, I tried rapid fire. Increase in group size was not unexpected. The occasional flier was also expected, but I was chagrined to find that the group moved left and down by two inches in each direction. Is there a way to get my rapid fire group to be centered around my point of aim? How do I diagnose what I'm doing wrong during rapid fire? I don't want to change my point of aim. Cheers, Jae __________________ 45 ACP: Springfield Armory Loaded 1911 5" barrel 357 magnum: Smith & Wesson 686 6" barrel 9x19: CZ 75B, Glock 17 22lr: Ruger Mk III/45

September 20, 2008, 07:58 PM	#2
pax Senior Member Join Date: May 16, 2000 Location: In a state of flux Posts: 7,520	Jae ~ Go buy yourself some snap caps. Mix them randomly in your magazine along with your live ammunition, and do the same kind of shooting. You'll be able to make your own diagnosis after that ... www.corneredcat.com/Basics/flinch.aspx pax __________________ Kathy Jackson My personal website: Cornered Cat

September 20, 2008, 08:13 PM	#4
pax Senior Member Join Date: May 16, 2000 Location: In a state of flux Posts: 7,520	Walther, Sure. Or he could fill multiple magazines at a time, and then mix them around before selecting one to load into the gun. Either way, the goal is being surprised by the contents. pax __________________ Kathy Jackson My personal website: Cornered Cat

September 20, 2008, 09:29 PM	#7
armedandsafe Senior Member Join Date: January 9, 2005 Location: Moses Lake WA Posts: 1,001	I had a similar problem (down and right, as I'm a lefty pistol shooter.) I had an instructor tell me I was waiting to trip the trigger on recovery from the previous shot until I had the sight picture. He wanted me to signal my finger to trip as I was coming onto the picture, so the oversweep would bring me onto target. Just a thought. Pops __________________ Armed and Safe: Not just a theory If it time to bury them, it is time to dig them up. Remember, "Behind every blade of grass."

September 20, 2008, 10:27 PM	#9
Dash Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 2007 Posts: 171	you are jerking the trigger in rapid fire. use your surprise break, in time youll speed up. use bill drills __________________ http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=dashwerks

September 20, 2008, 08:07 PM	#3
Walther22lr Senior Member Join Date: February 2, 2000 Location: Arizona Territory Posts: 296	I agree. Try some snap caps in the mag. But I would have someone else load the mag for you. That way you will not know when, if and how many "duds" are in the mag.

September 20, 2008, 08:26 PM	#6
Walther22lr Senior Member Join Date: February 2, 2000 Location: Arizona Territory Posts: 296	Pax, after posting my response I went to the link you posted www.corneredcat.com/Basics/flinch.aspx and I really like your idea of multiple magazines for this test! I should have read it first before posting my previous response. I have a several mags for my 1911 and will try this myself, great idea! Thanks!

September 20, 2008, 09:31 PM	#8
Casimer Senior Member Join Date: April 23, 2007 Location: Pennsylvania, USA Posts: 1,918	Another factor may be that your grip is shifting - e.g. if the series starts where you want it but then gradually walks down to the left.

September 20, 2008, 11:14 PM	#10
vox rationis Senior Member Join Date: April 15, 2007 Posts: 1,855	did you say low and to the left Very common, and I agree with everyone..mix some snap caps and you'll see how badly you are flinching, anticipating the recoil. When I get back in form my rapid fire groups do center as I work to lose the almost instinctual flinch, but that flinch comes back all to easily when out of form. The rhythm of following the front sight back on target, all the meanwhile prepping the trigger to let the next shot off exactly as soon as you have front sight on target, without flinching in anticipation of the recoil is definitely a perishable skill.

September 21, 2008, 11:46 AM	#11
Lurper Senior Member Join Date: March 21, 2006 Posts: 943	You're jerking the trigger. There are several things you can do to fix it. If you like shooting your 686, put a quarter on the end of the barrel. Practice pulling the trigger without dislodging the quarter. With enough practice you'll be able to pull the trigger smoothly and quickly. With your Glock, dry fire or when you live fire, fire a magazine at the berm as fast as you can press the trigger while focusing on a smooth trigger press- I call that "resetting your mind". What you have is a timing problem. What happens right after you press the trigger? The round fires right? Then what? The gun recoils. What do you do then? Bring the gun back on target. This is the problem with "Ball and dummy" drills. Most people aren't at a level where they can tell if the muzzle moves before or after the hammer falls. If it moves after, you don' have a problem because that is what you normally do when you shoot. It's when it moves BEFORE the hammer falls that you have an issue. I can guarantee that if you put a dummy round in my magazine that the muzzle will dip when I reach it. Doesn't worry me a bit because I know that it dipped after the hammer fell. Yet the unskilled observer's automatic reaction is usually "dude, you got a bad flinch". What is probably happening is you are playing "gotcha" with the trigger. That is when you start pressing the trigger smoothly, but your conscious mind becomes impatient and "says okay smooth press, press, okay now!" and you jerk the last part of the travel which causes the muzzle to move. To fix it, practice the "surprise break". Press the trigger slowly and smoothly until the shot breaks. It should surprise you when it does. If you can tell when the shot is going to break, you are not presssing the trigger correctly. Even when shooting extremely fast, it should surprise you when the shot breaks. Work on that for awhile and you will see improvement. There are a couple of other things you could be doing like moving your entire hand instead of just your trigger finger when you press the trigger. But, by dryfiring and working on a surprise break, you will correct those as well.

September 21, 2008, 11:53 AM	#12
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	Seeing you are in Austin, check out www.krtraining.com - they offer excellent courses on the basics of handgun use. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

September 21, 2008, 07:40 PM	#13
Tuckahoe Senior Member Join Date: March 20, 2008 Location: Central eastern North Carolina Posts: 194	I used to have a business card from an indoor range that gave tips based on where your bullets struck the target. Too tight a grip, too loose, jerking the trigger, ect... pretty neat wish I could find it. Anyone else seen one? __________________ You know a long time ago being crazy meant something. Nowadays everybody's crazy Charles Manson

September 23, 2008, 08:38 PM	#14
TripIII Member Join Date: January 24, 2008 Posts: 70	Releasing the hammer/striker vice pulling the trigger requires thousands of hammer releases whether putting bullets down range or dry firing. It's a muscle memory/mental thing. Releasing the hammer in quick succession requires thousands more, and very frequent practice. I have come to the conclusion that I will never be able to afford to be really good and really fast. I'll just settle for really good.

September 24, 2008, 12:16 AM	#15
BikerRN Senior Member Join Date: February 11, 2007 Location: "State of Discombobulation" Posts: 1,333	Two things I would recommend. First, slow down because you are jerking the trigger trying too shoot fast. Second, slow down, the speed will come with time. Biker