Cost of Lead Under .80 Lb.

Joe D · June 14, 2008, 08:39 PM

The price of lead is now under .80 per lb. This is down over $1.00 per lb from it's high. Lead inventories are at a very high level. It is time to start putting pressure on the bullet manufacturers to start dropping their prices. If we don't nothing will happen.

R.Childs · June 14, 2008, 09:41 PM

Doubt that will happen since copper is up right now. It's roughly up .75c per pound than it was in Dec. at around $3.60 per lb. But that is down from April where it was $4.00 per lb.

imdarren · June 14, 2008, 10:12 PM

Copper may be up, but for cast lead bullets, they should be comming down!

snuffy · June 14, 2008, 10:21 PM

Quote:

Copper may be up, but for cast lead bullets, they should be comming down!

Oh? So the makers of bullets, whether lead or jacketed, that bought lead at the former high price, should now take a loss and sell for less?

Once a price hike takes place, there is seldom a drop in price, even if replacement lead/copper starts costing less. Remember there's a war going on. We usually get what's left over after the troops are suppled.

308sc · June 14, 2008, 11:19 PM

Yep agreed Distra....when gas goes up everything you see on the selfs goes up with it. Our society is based upon gas, I mean when you think about it if the US didn't have gas/oil/petroleum during uprising of this nation then our lifestyle would be completely different today, but I am pretty sure there is still alot of profit in ammunition sales...but what can you do? Then again I am only in 10th grade what do I know?

orionengnr · June 15, 2008, 10:45 AM

My local sources lead bullet casting suppliers cannot keep product on the shelves, and are (in at least one case) at least one month behind in filling orders.

And I am going to "put pressure" on them, just how again?

**Shane Tuttle** · June 15, 2008, 11:01 AM

Quote:

...but what can you do? Then again I am only in 10th grade what do I know?

Probably not as much as the old timers here. But, that doesn't mean you don't know anything. Besides, we all could learn from younger generations as well...

Quote:

Oh? So the makers of bullets, whether lead or jacketed, that bought lead at the former high price, should now take a loss and sell for less?

I think that most bullet manufacturers are honest folks. Are they making a higher profit margin than, say, 5 years ago? Maybe, maybe not. They aren't paying the same price for their lead today as they were 5 years ago. Should they drop their prices when they're actually selling the very lead that they bought for less? I would venture to say eventually after they know their business can operate in the black. I don't forsee it decreasing as fast as it increased....law of supply/demand will be in play.

Quote:

It is time to start putting pressure on the bullet manufacturers to start dropping their prices. If we don't nothing will happen.

Unfortunately, I must disagree at this point. Mainly for reasons I've stated above. I really don't think we're exactly dealing with OPEC here. Just because the so called inventory is up and prices just started to drop a bit doesn't necessarily mean it's going to be consistently this way. Now, if it keeps dropping at a significant rate and 6 mo/1yr later we're paying the same retail, I might be on board...

Crosshair · June 15, 2008, 11:08 AM

Don't forget the cost of energy. Bullets are heavy and shipping heavy stuff is expensive. Anything these companies save in lead costs is going to be made up for in shipping costs.

Ammo companies generally only do one or two price changes a year. This isn't like gasoline where the price changes daily. So the prices are going to have to stay low for quire awhile before they lower their retail prices. Don't forget that most ammo companies waited for quite awhile before their started raising prices. (This resulted in shortages for some kinds of ammo.) So it's only fair for them to wait a bit before lowering prices if it is possible to do so.

crowbeaner · June 16, 2008, 03:02 PM

I'm waiting with baited breath for the arrival of my Littleton; this $63 a bag shot at Goose Hill has gotten my dander up. I paid $0.25 a pound for linotype and bullet alloy 10 years ago; it's going to make some fine extra hard shot.

T. O'Heir · June 16, 2008, 08:26 PM

The cost of lead has little to do with retail ammo prices. Cast or otherwise. Trucks don't use gasoline. The average price, Stateside, for diesel fuel is $4.69 per gallon. Truck fuel tanks hold around 50 U.S. gallons. $234.50 to fill one side.

R.Childs · June 16, 2008, 08:35 PM

T, alot of your overtheroad trucks have 150 gallon tanks, one on each side. Do the math on that one! I don't know how the independent truckers are making it right now.

Crosshair · June 17, 2008, 12:28 AM

Quote:

T, alot of your overtheroad trucks have 150 gallon tanks, one on each side. Do the math on that one! I don't know how the independent truckers are making it right now.

I generally see them making about 80-90 mph on my travels for my job. The company pickup I drive can't keep up with them. (Not safely anyway, it gets loose at about 90 mph.)

Q: What's the difference between a company truck driver and an independent truck driver?
A: About 20 mph on the Interstate.

freakshow10mm · June 17, 2008, 12:40 AM

Most 18 wheelers I know of are regulated to 65-70mph on the governor.

The newer ones get 15-17mpg on the hwy at 65mph. Not too shabby.

R.Childs · June 17, 2008, 08:50 AM

freakshow, they don't hardly get half that mileage. I worked as a diesel mechanic on heavy duty trucks for over 20 years. Those engines are capable of more like 6 to 8 mpg and if you aren't running with a heavy load and the driver knows what he's doing then you may, MAY, squeeze 9 out of it but only if running a series 60 Detroit. The Cummins, Caterpillars, and Macks won't touch it in mpg. Gotta remember these engines are from 800 cubic inches to over 900 cubic inches and fully loaded are pulling 40,000lbs. down the road. Add the weight of the trailer and the truck and that goes up to 80,000lbs. My Yukon won't do 16mpg just pulling me down the road.

As far as being governed to 65-70, it depends on the company or the truck owner. The "old" governors are no more. Everything is done by electronics now. You roll a laptop up to the truck, or a scantool, and program the ecm(computer) to run however fast you set it. You are right, a lot of the companies want the most mpg they can get and have the ecm set around 70mph. The independents own their own truck, they set it usually alot faster because for them time is money. They get paid by the mile and need to run as many miles as possible. Of course now, with almost $5 diesel, I'm sure they have had to rethink that strategy and back of the accelerator a bit.

freakshow10mm · June 17, 2008, 09:19 AM

I worked in a steel mill in Green Bay, before I moved up here. Part of my job was loading steel bundles on the trucks with cranes. I chatted with the drivers quite a bit about their trucks. They mostly stated the mpg into the low to mid teens. Could be with just the truck and no trailer, but that's where I got the figure from. They all ran out of TTI of Eden, WI, we had a few company trucks though. Couple Volvos, mostly Peterbuilts. Only saw a Mack once and about the same for a Cummins.

Most loads were close to 50,000lbs. Lotta weight hauling ass down the highway. Most truckers said they do 65-70mph during the day but LE lets them open it up at night when there is less traffic, but most said they never go over 80mph.

langenc · June 17, 2008, 02:52 PM

So using figures I found right here--

Copper at $3.60 per pound.

The 38s I was loading weighed about 92 grain with primer-so less than 90 gr/case or 9000/100 cases or 1.28 pounds/100 cases or 4.60 for the brass in 100 cases. One post said that the 3.60/pound is 75 cents more than December. So in December the cases cost $4.03/100 or just over $2.00 for the brass in a box of 50--38 cases. 9 mm probably only 60-70% that much or $1.20 to 1.40 for thae brass in a box of 50 9 mm-(at Decembers prices)!! How much did ammo go up in January??

crowbeaner · June 17, 2008, 03:04 PM

I drove 18 and 34 wheelers for 25 years until diabetes and burnout parked me. The last Freightliner I drove had a 475 Detroit in it and got just under 6 MPG with a single, and averaged 4.5 with (2) 45 foot trailers at 65 MPH on the Thruway. Diesel right now is $5.25 a gallon at the mini truckstop down the road from me. I think it's time that our elected officials got off their onagers and did something about this; everything you have is brought by truck to wherever you bought it. Manufacturers are using the cost of fuel to raise prices on EVERYTHING not just ammo and reloading supplies.

R.Childs · June 17, 2008, 05:42 PM

langenc, i think you have copper confused with brass. casings are made of brass, bullet jackets are made of copper.

Either way it is what it is and ammo is not gonna go down when raw materials are up and diesel is $5+ per gallon.

Crowbeaner, if the independents, and even companies that have their own trucks, and freight companies, would park those trucks and refuse to move them, you would see some mad scrambling in DC to get fuel prices down.

freakshow10mm · June 17, 2008, 09:42 PM

Cartridge brass is 70% copper, 30% zinc, and maybe a trace of other metals.

260 Brass (Cartridge Brass)
260 Brass is known by about a zillion different names, but the most common are yellow brass and cartridge brass, the second because it is generally used for shell casings. As a rule, it is only available in sheet, and is not very machinable, but is a great combination of formability and workability.

C260 Cartridge Brass
Minimum Properties Ultimate Tensile Strength, psi 61,600
Yield Strength, psi 52,200
Elongation 23%
Rockwell Hardness B77
Chemistry Copper (Cu) 68.5 - 71.5%
Zinc (Zn) 28.5 - 31.5%
Iron (Fe) 0.05% max
Lead (Pb) 0.07% max

**Shane Tuttle** · June 17, 2008, 09:49 PM

Quote:

Crowbeaner, if the independents, and even companies that have their own trucks, and freight companies, would park those trucks and refuse to move them, you would see some mad scrambling in DC to get fuel prices down.

If you're an independent and pull this stunt, another independent will step in and take your load. The company that you didn't haul for that day you decide to park your truck will no longer need your service...

Companies that have their own trucks will lose their business partners in a similar fashion...

Even if you got 50% of the industry to park, do you really think DC will more yet can do anything? Even if they do, how do you think the industry is going to recover quickly from parking their trucks?

R.Childs · June 18, 2008, 08:27 AM

Tuttle, there would have to be unity among them all. What you mentioned actually happened in the 70's. The truckers were all for strike but you had those that wouldn't park their truck and there cause was unsuccessful. There would have to be unity among them to make it work. If they every get urinated off enough to do it, this country will be brought to it's knees. Personally, I can't see how they keep them rolling with the price of diesel.

I don't expect DC to lower the cost of crude oil. They can't when they don't set the price. They could pressure each state to drop the excise tax on gas and diesel though. This tax is more for some than others, but at this point every little bit helps.

What DC really needs to do is open up offshore drilling and start drilling in ANWR. It makes no sense that we be virtually 100% dependent on foreign oil. Whether from the Arabs or Hugo Chaves in Venezuela. Why buy from your enemies?

swmike · June 21, 2008, 04:02 PM

Bullet Manufacturers will only lower their prices when they stop selling 100% of their capacity. For now I don't see that happening. Just like the oil companies. When people become accustomed to high prices why lower them.

The only way I see lower prices is if we all were to go on a 6month to one year "moratorium" on bullet purchases so the suppliers would choke on their inventories. And the chances of that happening are?????

38 Super Auto · June 21, 2008, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Even if you got 50% of the industry to park, do you really think DC will more yet can do anything?

The problem is the environmental lobby and their lapdog left wing US Reps and Senators.

They literally have regulated out new drilling and refining in the US. A large component of the price of crude right now is due to speculation. Therefore, when the US announces their intention to explore and drill for more oil, speculators will no longer be long on oil futures. It's that simple.

The US uses about 20 million bbls of oil/day. We produce 7-8 million bbl/day. Why, when we have nearly an unlimited supply available in the US in the form of crude oil and oil shale?

Why are we whining to Saudi Arabia? Enough with the excuses. We can and we should drill our way out of this problem. I guess, our elected representatives have not yet heard enough complaining from their constituency. It's a shame, because many of them are starting to believe they own the country and we are the subjects.

**Shane Tuttle** · June 21, 2008, 08:06 PM

R.Childs,

That's what my point was as you stated what happened in the '70's. I think you and I are on the same page. I do think they ought to unite and park 'em. It would screw me as the consumer, but I would understand their reason and it would only be a temporary setback for me.

Besides, if anybody has the intestinal fortitude in this country as civilians, it's truckers. It will take a VAST majority of them to go through with it to even have a chance of sending the message...

Sigma 40 Blaster · June 21, 2008, 11:38 PM

Before this thread gets completely jacked I'd like to bring the point back up that casters have already paid higher cost for the lead they currently have casted and whatever they have in reserve. Their supplies also likely have lead that they purchased while the cost was high.

It will take a while for everyone to sell off their "expensive" lead and get some cheaper lead circulating.

I spoke with Mike at MasterCast about that this weekend and he said that he hoped his suppliers prices would reflect these new prices. There is the possibility that the suppliers will continue to sell at the higher price as long as people are buying.

June 14, 2008, 08:39 PM	#1
Joe D Senior Member Join Date: October 17, 1999 Location: Alabama Posts: 455	Cost of Lead Under .80 Lb. The price of lead is now under .80 per lb. This is down over $1.00 per lb from it's high. Lead inventories are at a very high level. It is time to start putting pressure on the bullet manufacturers to start dropping their prices. If we don't nothing will happen. __________________ Miss? That can't be a miss. Looks like a perfect double to me.

June 15, 2008, 11:08 AM	#8
Crosshair Senior Member Join Date: December 16, 2004 Location: Grand Forks, ND Posts: 5,333	Don't forget the cost of energy. Bullets are heavy and shipping heavy stuff is expensive. Anything these companies save in lead costs is going to be made up for in shipping costs. Ammo companies generally only do one or two price changes a year. This isn't like gasoline where the price changes daily. So the prices are going to have to stay low for quire awhile before they lower their retail prices. Don't forget that most ammo companies waited for quite awhile before their started raising prices. (This resulted in shortages for some kinds of ammo.) So it's only fair for them to wait a bit before lowering prices if it is possible to do so. __________________ I don't carry a gun to go looking for trouble, I carry a gun in case trouble finds me.

June 16, 2008, 03:02 PM	#9
crowbeaner Senior Member Join Date: June 4, 2007 Location: Upstate SC Posts: 1,943	I'm waiting with baited breath for the arrival of my Littleton; this $63 a bag shot at Goose Hill has gotten my dander up. I paid $0.25 a pound for linotype and bullet alloy 10 years ago; it's going to make some fine extra hard shot. __________________ If you want your children to follow in your footsteps, be careful where you walk. Beware the man that only owns one gun; he probably knows how to use it. I just hope my ship comes in before my dock rots.

June 16, 2008, 08:26 PM	#10
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	The cost of lead has little to do with retail ammo prices. Cast or otherwise. Trucks don't use gasoline. The average price, Stateside, for diesel fuel is $4.69 per gallon. Truck fuel tanks hold around 50 U.S. gallons. $234.50 to fill one side. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

June 17, 2008, 03:04 PM	#17
crowbeaner Senior Member Join Date: June 4, 2007 Location: Upstate SC Posts: 1,943	I drove 18 and 34 wheelers for 25 years until diabetes and burnout parked me. The last Freightliner I drove had a 475 Detroit in it and got just under 6 MPG with a single, and averaged 4.5 with (2) 45 foot trailers at 65 MPH on the Thruway. Diesel right now is $5.25 a gallon at the mini truckstop down the road from me. I think it's time that our elected officials got off their onagers and did something about this; everything you have is brought by truck to wherever you bought it. Manufacturers are using the cost of fuel to raise prices on EVERYTHING not just ammo and reloading supplies. __________________ If you want your children to follow in your footsteps, be careful where you walk. Beware the man that only owns one gun; he probably knows how to use it. I just hope my ship comes in before my dock rots.

June 14, 2008, 09:41 PM	#2
R.Childs Senior Member Join Date: June 11, 2008 Location: S.Georgia Posts: 164	Doubt that will happen since copper is up right now. It's roughly up .75c per pound than it was in Dec. at around $3.60 per lb. But that is down from April where it was $4.00 per lb.

June 14, 2008, 10:12 PM	#3
imdarren Senior Member Join Date: April 20, 2005 Location: Washington State Posts: 164	Copper may be up, but for cast lead bullets, they should be comming down!

June 14, 2008, 11:19 PM	#5
308sc Member Join Date: April 1, 2008 Location: Elgin, South Carolina Posts: 30	Yep agreed Distra....when gas goes up everything you see on the selfs goes up with it. Our society is based upon gas, I mean when you think about it if the US didn't have gas/oil/petroleum during uprising of this nation then our lifestyle would be completely different today, but I am pretty sure there is still alot of profit in ammunition sales...but what can you do? Then again I am only in 10th grade what do I know?

June 15, 2008, 10:45 AM	#6
orionengnr Senior Member Join Date: July 9, 2004 Posts: 5,177	My local sources lead bullet casting suppliers cannot keep product on the shelves, and are (in at least one case) at least one month behind in filling orders. And I am going to "put pressure" on them, just how again?

June 16, 2008, 08:35 PM	#11
R.Childs Senior Member Join Date: June 11, 2008 Location: S.Georgia Posts: 164	T, alot of your overtheroad trucks have 150 gallon tanks, one on each side. Do the math on that one! I don't know how the independent truckers are making it right now.

June 17, 2008, 12:40 AM	#13
freakshow10mm Junior member Join Date: January 23, 2008 Location: MI Posts: 1,398	Most 18 wheelers I know of are regulated to 65-70mph on the governor. The newer ones get 15-17mpg on the hwy at 65mph. Not too shabby.

June 17, 2008, 08:50 AM	#14
R.Childs Senior Member Join Date: June 11, 2008 Location: S.Georgia Posts: 164	freakshow, they don't hardly get half that mileage. I worked as a diesel mechanic on heavy duty trucks for over 20 years. Those engines are capable of more like 6 to 8 mpg and if you aren't running with a heavy load and the driver knows what he's doing then you may, MAY, squeeze 9 out of it but only if running a series 60 Detroit. The Cummins, Caterpillars, and Macks won't touch it in mpg. Gotta remember these engines are from 800 cubic inches to over 900 cubic inches and fully loaded are pulling 40,000lbs. down the road. Add the weight of the trailer and the truck and that goes up to 80,000lbs. My Yukon won't do 16mpg just pulling me down the road. As far as being governed to 65-70, it depends on the company or the truck owner. The "old" governors are no more. Everything is done by electronics now. You roll a laptop up to the truck, or a scantool, and program the ecm(computer) to run however fast you set it. You are right, a lot of the companies want the most mpg they can get and have the ecm set around 70mph. The independents own their own truck, they set it usually alot faster because for them time is money. They get paid by the mile and need to run as many miles as possible. Of course now, with almost $5 diesel, I'm sure they have had to rethink that strategy and back of the accelerator a bit.

June 17, 2008, 09:19 AM	#15
freakshow10mm Junior member Join Date: January 23, 2008 Location: MI Posts: 1,398	I worked in a steel mill in Green Bay, before I moved up here. Part of my job was loading steel bundles on the trucks with cranes. I chatted with the drivers quite a bit about their trucks. They mostly stated the mpg into the low to mid teens. Could be with just the truck and no trailer, but that's where I got the figure from. They all ran out of TTI of Eden, WI, we had a few company trucks though. Couple Volvos, mostly Peterbuilts. Only saw a Mack once and about the same for a Cummins. Most loads were close to 50,000lbs. Lotta weight hauling ass down the highway. Most truckers said they do 65-70mph during the day but LE lets them open it up at night when there is less traffic, but most said they never go over 80mph.

June 17, 2008, 02:52 PM	#16
langenc Senior Member Join Date: August 19, 2007 Location: Montmorency Co, MI Posts: 1,551	So using figures I found right here-- Copper at $3.60 per pound. The 38s I was loading weighed about 92 grain with primer-so less than 90 gr/case or 9000/100 cases or 1.28 pounds/100 cases or 4.60 for the brass in 100 cases. One post said that the 3.60/pound is 75 cents more than December. So in December the cases cost $4.03/100 or just over $2.00 for the brass in a box of 50--38 cases. 9 mm probably only 60-70% that much or $1.20 to 1.40 for thae brass in a box of 50 9 mm-(at Decembers prices)!! How much did ammo go up in January??

June 17, 2008, 05:42 PM	#18
R.Childs Senior Member Join Date: June 11, 2008 Location: S.Georgia Posts: 164	langenc, i think you have copper confused with brass. casings are made of brass, bullet jackets are made of copper. Either way it is what it is and ammo is not gonna go down when raw materials are up and diesel is $5+ per gallon. Crowbeaner, if the independents, and even companies that have their own trucks, and freight companies, would park those trucks and refuse to move them, you would see some mad scrambling in DC to get fuel prices down.

June 17, 2008, 09:42 PM	#19
freakshow10mm Junior member Join Date: January 23, 2008 Location: MI Posts: 1,398	Cartridge brass is 70% copper, 30% zinc, and maybe a trace of other metals. 260 Brass (Cartridge Brass) 260 Brass is known by about a zillion different names, but the most common are yellow brass and cartridge brass, the second because it is generally used for shell casings. As a rule, it is only available in sheet, and is not very machinable, but is a great combination of formability and workability. C260 Cartridge Brass Minimum Properties Ultimate Tensile Strength, psi 61,600 Yield Strength, psi 52,200 Elongation 23% Rockwell Hardness B77 Chemistry Copper (Cu) 68.5 - 71.5% Zinc (Zn) 28.5 - 31.5% Iron (Fe) 0.05% max Lead (Pb) 0.07% max

June 18, 2008, 08:27 AM	#21
R.Childs Senior Member Join Date: June 11, 2008 Location: S.Georgia Posts: 164	Tuttle, there would have to be unity among them all. What you mentioned actually happened in the 70's. The truckers were all for strike but you had those that wouldn't park their truck and there cause was unsuccessful. There would have to be unity among them to make it work. If they every get urinated off enough to do it, this country will be brought to it's knees. Personally, I can't see how they keep them rolling with the price of diesel. I don't expect DC to lower the cost of crude oil. They can't when they don't set the price. They could pressure each state to drop the excise tax on gas and diesel though. This tax is more for some than others, but at this point every little bit helps. What DC really needs to do is open up offshore drilling and start drilling in ANWR. It makes no sense that we be virtually 100% dependent on foreign oil. Whether from the Arabs or Hugo Chaves in Venezuela. Why buy from your enemies?

June 21, 2008, 04:02 PM	#22
swmike Senior Member Join Date: June 25, 2005 Location: Marysville, WA Posts: 670	Bullet Manufacturers will only lower their prices when they stop selling 100% of their capacity. For now I don't see that happening. Just like the oil companies. When people become accustomed to high prices why lower them. The only way I see lower prices is if we all were to go on a 6month to one year "moratorium" on bullet purchases so the suppliers would choke on their inventories. And the chances of that happening are????? __________________ My definition of Gun Control--- A steady grip and hitting your target. "In God we trust, all others are suspects." "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying, either I won't need any more, or more won't be of any help". ____________________________________________

June 21, 2008, 08:06 PM	#24
Shane Tuttle Staff Join Date: November 28, 2005 Location: Montana Posts: 9,443	R.Childs, That's what my point was as you stated what happened in the '70's. I think you and I are on the same page. I do think they ought to unite and park 'em. It would screw me as the consumer, but I would understand their reason and it would only be a temporary setback for me. Besides, if anybody has the intestinal fortitude in this country as civilians, it's truckers. It will take a VAST majority of them to go through with it to even have a chance of sending the message... __________________ If it were up to me, the word "got" would be deleted from the English language. Posting and YOU: http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/posting

June 21, 2008, 11:38 PM	#25
Sigma 40 Blaster Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2007 Location: East Texas Posts: 997	Before this thread gets completely jacked I'd like to bring the point back up that casters have already paid higher cost for the lead they currently have casted and whatever they have in reserve. Their supplies also likely have lead that they purchased while the cost was high. It will take a while for everyone to sell off their "expensive" lead and get some cheaper lead circulating. I spoke with Mike at MasterCast about that this weekend and he said that he hoped his suppliers prices would reflect these new prices. There is the possibility that the suppliers will continue to sell at the higher price as long as people are buying.