In The Market For A New O/U Need Opinions

JW74 · November 24, 2011, 12:17 AM

I was hoping to get peoples opinion on here regarding a few shotguns I have been looking at lately. I started shooting sporting clays a year ago and am really enjoying it! I placed 3rd at nationals this year in my class shooting my Browning Citori 625 Feather. It's a great gun but only has 28" barrels and at 6'3 I feel like I could benefit from a longer gun. I have shot a few 30" and 32" guns and they seem to fit better. I have shot a Blaser and it felt great. Ultimately I would like the Blaser F3 Super Sporting but am having trouble justifying the cost as I would also like to add sub gauge tubes at some point. Today I was able to shoot a Beretta 682 and it shouldered well and had a good feel as did a friends Zoli Z Sport that I shot as well. I also stopped at Bass Pro and shouldered a Guerini Magnus, it was the one with the dark heat treated metal on the receiver. It has a great feel and balance. I am not too familiar with the Guerini but it was new in the box for $4299. I also shouldered a used Kolar Sporting with adjustable aluminum but plate and full sub gauge tubes for $7500. Again that's a little on the pricey side, especially for a used gun. I am sure it has many miles left in it though. I know these guns really run the spectrum but wanted to hear what you guys thought of the Guerini, Beretta 682, Kolar, Blaser and Zoli? I know the Kolar is a top tier gun but am not sure how dependable the Guerini and Zoli's are. Thanks for any info and advice.

hopper810 · November 24, 2011, 09:19 AM

They are all good guns,good luck deciding

Wish I had your dilemma.

COK · November 24, 2011, 10:11 AM

What was said above ,they are all good quality firearms and should last a long time . For me it would come down to what fit ,felt the best, looked good to me and fit my budget. I have little experience with Guerini though have a friend that loves his, I never any trouble with the others . I myself am always comfortable with the Beretta - but that's me.

TheKlawMan · November 24, 2011, 11:53 AM

One thing about the Guerini over Browning and Beretta (I know naught about the others) is I have heard it has an excellent warranty department and customer service.

zippy13 · November 24, 2011, 11:55 AM

I'm happy with my 682. Beretta has been in business for almost 500 years and make everyone else seem like newbies.

oneounceload · November 24, 2011, 03:13 PM

Buy the Blaser - you want it, and the cost of the gun is the least costly factor compared to targets and ammo, etc..............

BigJimP · November 25, 2011, 07:45 PM

You obviously shoot well enough - to know what stock dimensions will fit you ..so that isn't a factor.

In terms of durability - I don't think there is a bad gun in your mix of options ...so I don't know there is much of a reason to pick one over the other...but if it were me, I'd take a real hard look at Kolar, Krieghoff and Blaser. If you want to go with a tube set ....at your level of competence -- I'd certainly consider a gun with a carrier barrel vs just tubing a 12ga. Its a way better option long term.

The 625 Feather ...is a light gun ...and has a lot of drop at the comb and heel ...so make you have a gun with some built in adjustability - but then I prefer parallel adj combs.

JW74 · November 26, 2011, 12:11 AM

BigJim I am definitely looking to have an adjustable stock on my next gun for that very reason. I also have been checking on guns that I can get a carrier barrel for the sub gauge tubes to fit in. One of the positives for Beretta is that you can find carrier barrels for a reasonable price fairly easily.

Speaking of carrier barrels, is there a large difference on how the gun handles with fitted tubes in the main 12ga barrel as opposed to the carrier barrel that has had some of the weight removed to help keep the weight consistent?

oregunner · November 26, 2011, 12:23 AM

I have a Browning skeet gun with a set of Kolar subgauge tubes. Shooting it as a 12 gauge, without tubes, it feels like an entirely different gun, it is that much lighter. I have gone to a different gun for 12 gauge, (a semi-auto) and only shoot the Browning with tubes. Mark

zippy13 · November 26, 2011, 02:28 PM

Shooting it as a 12 gauge, without tubes, it feels like an entirely different gun, it is that much lighter.

That's why Kolar (and others) sell barrel weights to compensate for the weight differential, or you can go the carrier barrel routine. IMHO, folks who don't shoot their tube gun in 12-ga events typically do so for the reduced recoil of a gas gun. If you practice all week with your .410 tubes, then shooting in a weekend's 12-ga event can be a rude awakening.

JW74 · November 27, 2011, 01:34 AM

I think I would be inclined to add barrel weights when shooting the 12 gauge in an effort to keep the weight the same as when the sub gauge tubes are in the gun. It seems like the much cheaper rout to go than buying a separate carrier barrel that could run anywhere from $1000 for a Beretta to $2500 for the carrier barrel on the Blaser.

zippy13 · November 27, 2011, 01:21 PM

Also, the weighted 12-ga will have less recoil, and a smoother swing, than a lighter carrier barrel set-up. The difference isn't monumental, once I forgot to attach the weight after removing my tubes and I didn't figure it out until Skeet's Station 7.

BigJimP · November 28, 2011, 05:23 PM

Barrel weights are a decent solution ...as long as the balance point remains identical to what it was before you added the weight. If it moves forward -- even an inch / I wouldn't recommend it.

Its surprising how much difference there is in the handling and swing characteristics in a gun that weighs even 10oz more ...at least for me / but maybe you're good enough - that it won't bother you.

Yes, carrier barrels are expensive ...but companies like Briley ...will also bore out a 12ga barrel and turn it into a carrier barrel / I think for around $ 1,000 for a customer supplied barrel - and fit it to the receiver, etc...

But keep in mind ...in your shooting career ...since you're already at a high level ....the cost of the gun / to get you to that elite level ....vs cost of shells, entry fees, travel, etc ...is the least of your cost factors - even in you spend $ 30K on this new gun !! Compromising on that gun now ...may hold you back in your development down the road ...so I'd seriously suggest looking for a carrier barrel ...and a shop that knows how to make it correctly / or go to the mfg directly ! I don't compete at your level ...so a carrier barrel is just not something I've ever done .../ I considered it - when I was younger and more competitive ...but in the senior ranks now / and eyesight failing ...its no longer worth it to me / and I just shoot for fun ....not in tournaments much anymore - except locally.

oneounceload · November 28, 2011, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Guerini, Beretta 682, Kolar, Blaser and Zoli?

In order, IMO, from lowest to highest quality:

Beretta 682
Guerini
Zoli
Blaser
Kolar

and the Blaser is right on the heels of the Kolar

JW74 · November 29, 2011, 12:11 AM

BigJimP you make a good point as did oneounceload in that the cost of the gun is the least of the cost factors. I have been thinking about that over the last couple of days. I guess I wouldn't want to settle on a lesser gun only to regret it down the road and then end up upgrading at some point anyway. I don't imagine I will ever shoot the high end P or K guns but am leaning heavily towards to Blaser F3 Super Sport at this time. I also think the price of the Blasers is going to climb in the next few years as they become more and more popular, not that they aren't already.

Slugo · November 29, 2011, 03:05 AM

it's a very nice gun and one well worth consideration. If I bought one, it would definitely be a new model plain vanilla F3 sporter. Many earlier Blasers had faulty triggers, but that has been put to bed with the newer guns. Also, remember Kemen and Ranato Gamba!?! Everybody predicted them to land next to Krieghoff and Perazzi. Never happened. Same can happen with Blaser.

Let's move on to Caesar Guerini. Nice looking guns, reminiscent to a 682 Beretta, even prettier. Great customer service if you need it, and allot better than Beretta who treats their customers with cactus thorns. CG guns remind me of Hyundai cars, 10 year/100,000 mile warranty, because that's the only reason people buy them. It's a good marketing gimmick.

I would move Browning (Miroku) right underneath the two K guns and Perazzi in the durability and fit and finish department. Believe me, I've owned them all. Miroku of Japan has one of the most modern gun making facilities on the planet. The Citori is a direct descendant of the late/great JMB. Their customer service is also excellent. Let's see how many CG's match the Citori over the next decade in the aging department.

If I had to buy an Italian gun, it would most likely be a new Zoli. Other than the Perazzi, they appear to be one of the better shotguns out there from pasta land.

Just my 2 cents...

oneounceload · November 29, 2011, 11:35 AM

It isn't that Japanese Brownings are poorly built - they aren't; I own several because i can't afford the Perazzi yet. However, their barrels are thick and heavy - if you look at them, there's no swaged bulge at the end for the choke tubes like you see on guns with thinner (and better balanced) barrels - even the K-80 has that. Why doesn't browning? because they are so thick already, they don't need to do it. This makes the gun very barrel heavy - not always a bad thing, but definitely not as manageable as something else - even the old Superposeds - THOSE have great barrels, very well struck, ring like a chime, and balance better between the hands

BigJimP · November 29, 2011, 12:28 PM

Picking a gun for a serious competition shooter like you - that might fire 30,000 shells a yr ( 1,200 boxes)......or a guy like some of us that just want to have fun - but still shoot 15,000 shells a year (600 boxes) or so ....or a guy that just wants to shoots some clays once in a while - that might fire 2,000 shells a year ( 80 boxes)...are very different things.

If I had to list the top 5 O/U mfg's as I see them ( and with full disclosure / I have about 13 Browning O/U's - all Citori's and all Miroku guns - in my safe today ...5 field guns - Lightning's, 2 -XT Trap models, 5 - XS Skeet models and a BT-100 )....but I buy Browning Citori's because they fit me / and I like their fit and finish - and I wanted stand alone guns in every gague vs a better competition system like carrier barrels and tubes ).... but having said that ....my top 6 would be:

1. Krieghoff
2. Kolar
3. Blaser
4. Perazzi
5. Browning
6. Beretta

I don't think there is a bad gun in the mix / and any gun made by those 6 companies will easily be a 500,000 shell gun before you have to consider any major rebuilds...if even then ...

For a pedestrian shooter like myself ...that won a few tournaments and state titles ( in class, never overall !!! ) in sporting clays ...I fall easily into that middle group of shooters just out to have some fun ...and shoot 15,000 shells a yr or so. Any of the guns from Browning or Beretta will meet my needs ( but we buy what fits us / and at 6'5" and 275 lbs - what fits me / vs zippy or Oneounce might be very different).

In that top 4 ...the Blaser's are getting a lot of attention .../ but nobody knows where it may end up ...or who may buy them out or whatever may happen. All of the top 4 are big time players ..and big time shooters are sponsored by one of them / and hopefully you will be someday as well ...and then they'll tell you what you'll be shooting. In the meantime --- a Blaser is not a bad choice ...but neither are any of the top 6 ...in my view.

Oneounce likes the Belgium made Brownings a lot more than I do / and he likes CG and Zoli as well - way more than I do ..../ but I'd probably put them in 7th or 8th on my list .../ but like Slugo said too ...its just my 2 cents. But what I do know ...if you're going to shoot sporting ..seriously / or Skeet ...then you need to consider a Carrier Barrel gun / and a company that will fine tune your fit - and your triggers to your liking.

My primary guns are the Citori XS Skeet models - 30" barrels, adj combs ..at around 8 1/2 lbs ...in 12ga, 20ga, 28ga and .410 ...and I shoot them for sporting, skeet and some field hunting. For Trap I go to a longer and heavier gun - Citori XT Trap in a 32" and around 10 lbs. I have a nice BT-100 ...but rarely shoot it / and I'll probably sell it ..but those are my go to guns.

But if I had enought talent - and was 30 yrs younger - I'd invest in one of the top 4 mfg's - with a carrier barrel / even if I shot the 12ga 90% of the time in sporting ( only the bigger shoots - like state tournaments out here have any sub-gague events ). But I'm not going to drop $ 35 K on a new gun ....when I only shoot 1/3 of the guns in my safe now ...and for me today, breaking 70 on a sporting course is a good day for me / or in the low 90's at skeet / or mid 90's in Trap ....its just how it is / as most of us get into our 60's and the eyesight goes ....and shoulders, and elbows, and feet...( and hemmeroids ..just kidding ) ...

zippy13 · November 29, 2011, 01:18 PM

JW74,
I'm going to play devil's advocate: Do you NEED a new gun or do you WANT a new gun? You said, you feel you'd do better with a longer gun. Are you going to spend $5K+ on a hunch? Why not just get a new heavier/longer Browning? I know, a shiny new higher grade gun is appealing; but, in all reality, are you ready for it? Before you go from a generic gun, like your Browning, to a much more specific gun like those you've mentioned there are a bunch of decisions to be made. These guns offer varying specifications, and it's these individual specs that should determine your selection of make and model.

With just a year at the clays, you may not have the experience to adequately evaluate features of a higher grade gun. This is exemplified by your comment, "I have shot a few 30" and 32" guns and they seem to fit better." Barrel length has nothing to do with gun fit, it has to do with swing dynamics. I have a 28" Perazzi and one with a 30s. They have the same action, stock and forend -- they fit the same. The same holds true for my Beretta combo with two vastly different barrels -- it doesn't change the fit. Yes, they all swing differently.

A fancy new gun you will look cool at the gun club, but you want to avoid a costly mistake. You need a new gun when your existing gun is the limiting factor of your progress. Have you reached the Browning's full potential in just a year? Please, do yourself a favor, don't rush into getting a new gun until you've had a real chance to evaluate what you really want/need from a new gun.

When I got my first Skeet gun (in the late 60s) it had 26" barrels. Then, the theory was that 26s would get you on target quicker. We learned that it will also get you off target just as quickly because 26s are jumpy. Are you experiencing the same thing with your Feather -- do you find targets are getting under your barrels (a dire condition) while swinging? The trend has been to longer barrels, but some are taking it too far.

I'm your size and find that a heavier gun swings better for me. But, a heavier gun doesn't necessarily mean a longer gun. Have you tried hanging some wight on your existing gun? It's an inexpensive first step in learning what works best for you. There is no way of telling how a gun is going to perform simply by shouldering it in a gun store. You've got to shoot a bunch of different guns to find which specific model suits you.

Good luck, and to borrow from Slogo (who borrowed from Big Jim), "Sometimes the search is most of the fun!"

JW74 · November 29, 2011, 10:19 PM

BigJimP, thanks for your insight, it's greatly appreciated! I am still in the middle group of shooters you described shooting about 12000 rounds this past year. I hope to shoot more in the 2012 season with more registered shoots as well. I would like to get a gun that I can eventually get a carrier barrel for even if it's a year or two down the road. As in your area we really only have sub gauge classes at the state shoot and at nationals. I was planning on going with the Briley Side-kicks for now as I will only shoot 20 and 28 gauge at next year’s state shoot and at nationals. I don't really expect to be highly competitive in the sub gauges but want to shoot them for fun. I figure why not, if I travel all the way to the state shoot or national shoot I might as well shoot as much as I can while I am there. If the Side-Kick tubes work well I will stick with them for now as I can always trade them in towards fitted tubes with Briley down the road. It would be nice to be one of the fellas that shoots well enough to get free guns but that is definitely the pie in the sky for sure!

Slugo I agree with you about the Zoli being a solid contender as well. My buddy has A Z-Sport Bilanx. I don’t know much about that model but it’s a nice looking gun with 32” barrels. We are going shooting on Friday and I am going to take it for a test drive.

Zippy13, thanks for the grounding post. You make a lot of valid points. I did mean to say that the longer barreled gun swung better for me not fit better. I worded that incorrectly. I haven’t found that the targets are getting under my barrels while swinging the gun fortunately. I definitely plan to shoot as many guns as I can before I buy and if I don’t shoot any better with a longer or upper level gun I will hold off on throwing money at something that’s isn’t the right gun for me. I will admit there is some intrigue to a new gun, especially one specific to sporting clays as opposed to my current field gun which as I mentioned earlier is a good gun. I can’t honestly say that my 625 is the limiting factor to my shooting. I still have a long way to go. I did notice a significant improvement in my shooting this past summer when I switched from my Winchester SX3 to my Citori 625 though. Heavier seems to feel smoother but I am sure there is a point of diminishing returns with that as well. I am going to keep shooting my Citori 625 through the winter while I continue to try and improve and also test some other guns out too. I agree "Sometimes the search is most of the fun!". I find that I am also learning a lot in the process as well.

BigJimP · November 30, 2011, 12:32 PM

and no matter what --- have fun with the process.

You're not going to be too happy with the "side kicks" if you take them out and pattern them. They're ok for a few laughs ...but imagine how aggravated you'll be if you shoot the sub-gague events at State ...and you lose another title by 1 or 2 birds ...because you were shooting the "side kicks" ....vs a good tubed gun / or even a stand alone gun in 28ga or .410 ...

and I know / in my state sproting tournament - partly because I won the 28ga events (in class) 2 yrs in a row ...and lost the .410 events 2 yrs in a row ( to the same guy / by 1 bird each yr ).../ but at least I knew it wasn't my equipment that let me down ...

The entry fees, the practice time, the ammo etc on sub-gagues ...is not insignificant...

JW74 · December 1, 2011, 01:53 AM

BigJimP when you ran full length sub gauge tubes did your gun have the "pig on a shovel" feel to it compared to shooting the 12 gauge, or was it fairly easy to get used to the added or reduced weight when switching from to the other? I would like to experiment with a set of side-kick tubes before buying after reading your last post. No point in wasting money on those if they are going to be a weak link.

BigJimP · December 1, 2011, 12:00 PM

I've tested a lot of guns with full length tubes ....and I just didn't like them because of the difference in weight issue. The ones I considered the most - were a Citori XS Skeet 20ga ( with 28ga and .410 tubes ) ....and a Citori XS Skeet 12ga with 20ga, 28ga and .410 tubes ....both guns were 30" barrels.

In the 12ga Citori XS Skeet with 30" barrels and adj comb - the gun weighs about 8.5 lbs ...but when you put the full length tubes in it ...it added about 10 - 12 oz ...so it went up to between 9.25 and 9.5 lbs ...making it a little clumsy ( as a skeet gun, sporting clays guns ).

In the 20ga Citori XS Skeet with 30" barrels and adj comb - the gun weighs about 7.5 lbs ...so again adding the 10-12 oz for tubes ...it goes up to about 8.25 lbs .../ so as a stand alone 20ga ...its way lighter than the same model 12ga ( 8.5 lbs ) ...but with the tubes in it for 28ga and .410 it felt pretty good.

In the 20ga ...when you go to a 28ga tube set ----they're really thin / same on a 12ga when you go to a 20ga tube set ( they're thin ) ...and occasionally there will be cracking issues around the extractors / ejectors on the thinner tubes...

Bottom line ...unless I was going to spend the money for a carrier barrel and do it right ...I decided tubes were not my best option. So I ended up buying a stand alone XS Skeet 20ga, and a stand alone 28ga and a stand alone .410 ... This was a few yrs back / and I guess in all 4 guns (actually I have 5 - because I have a backup gun in 12ga as well / all in the Citori XS Skeet models, and 30" barrels ---- the 20ga, 28ga and .410 are all built on the 20ga receiver )....but I've got about $ 15,000 in replacement cost today on all 5 guns - or call it $12,000 for 4 guns. So you have to weigh the $ 12,000 for 4 guns ...against the cost of a carrier barrel and subgague tubes and chokes ...etc ..( and I'd say with a carrier barrel and everything its about $ 20,000 ) ....so its a little cheaper with stand alone guns ....but its an inferior system ...even though I've tried to weight all 4 guns so they are identical ....they're still just a hair different...and the triggers in all 4 guns are pretty good ...but not identical...

So its kind of an apples to oranges thing ....both work / or all 3 work ....the single stand alone with tubes is not the best ( too much weight difference), stand alone guns means you have to pack up and carry 4 guns around ..and they're close but not perfect ....and the carrier barrel option - which is pretty close to perfect but a little more money.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/atta...9&d=1281543688

So here are my primary guns --- all Citori XS Skeet models, 30" barrels top one is the 12ga, then 20ga, the 28ga and the .410 ....and since my semi-serious days of competition are over ...frankly, I like having 4 stand alone guns ...not having to fuss with tube sets...etc. But in your case - if you really want to get into this in a big way / the carrier barrel is really the way to do / and its an investment - that I think you will get your money out of long term as well - if you take care of the gun and the tubes, etc.

Now - I do like a heavier gun for Trap ...where I go to an XT ( Citori XT with 32" barrels at around 10lbs ...and I have one that is a stock gun with adj comb and one with a GraCoil and a fancy upgraded stock that I bought used ...) and I like them both ...and I can shoot them in skeet and sporting ...but they are really clumsy ( in my buddies words / they're like trying to swing a big ole sewer pipe ) when I was just fooling around and shooting skeet with the one with the GraCoil one day ...just for laughs.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/atta...8&d=1280945127

Both nice guns ...just not a good sporting or skeet gun, in my opinion.

zippy13 · December 1, 2011, 01:57 PM

Big Jim, being a casual shooter you're missing the major aspect of the carrier barrel system: Gauge change time and convenience.

Back in the day, a lot of shooters competed with Skeet sets -- a 12-ga O/U with extra 20, 28 & .410 barrels. Folks generally got better scores with sets than with four different guns. Having the same stock and receiver was a big bonus, the down side was cost. And, there was a big difference between the 12-ga and .410-bore barrels.

Then Skeeters discovered full length tubes. You could shoot 4-gauges from the same 12-ga barrel cheaper than with a 4-barrel set. And, as a bonus, the added weigh of the tubes smoothed the swing of the short barreled Skeet guns. Tube scores soared and the popularity of expensive 4-barrel sets plummeted.

IMHO, the weakness of the tube system was a matter of housekeeping -- you had to have your 12-ga barrel squeaky clean before inserting your tubes. You couldn't change gauge as quickly with a tubes as you could with a 4-barrel set. These were the days before fuzzy sticks and bore snakes. Then the carrier barrel set-up was introduced -- you didn't dirty your tube carrying barrel so gauge changes were much simpler. (Of course, if your barrels weren't identical you lost the "common barrel" advantage.) And, you didn't have to remember to install your barrel weight when shooting 12-ga.

To the casual and mid-class shooter, a carrier barrel may not sound cost effective. But, if you're a scratch shooter, you'll soon appreciate the advantage of quick gauge changes when they are calling the shoot-off squads, as daylight starts to fade, at the conclusion of a major tournament.

BigJimP · December 1, 2011, 02:13 PM

Sure zippy, things evolve over time ..../just like barrel length issues too...

But in my mind - cleaning a carrier barrel to change it over from a 20ga to a 28ga ...still takes the same amount of time ...as cleaning a stand alone 20ga gun so you can drop the 28ga tube set into it....

so sure - having stand alone guns or a 4 barrel set were faster to transition ...but like you say with fuzzy sticks and bore snakes these days the transition can be done inside of 10 min probably with no issues for changing tube sets in a carrier barrel or in a stand alone gun / but you're right / when they're calling squads out at the end of the day ...they don't want to wait 10 or 15 min ....

The carrier barrels I've seen are bored out - to accept the tube sets ...so the carrier barrel with the tubes in it ...is identical in weight to the stand alone 12ga barrel. The 4 barrel sets are another option ...and I see some mfg's are making them again ...but I don't think they're that good an option ..and certainly not that good for a serious competition shooter like yourself - if you were going into it today / with the options we have now.

November 24, 2011, 12:17 AM	#1
JW74 Member Join Date: September 5, 2007 Posts: 89	In The Market For A New O/U Need Opinions I was hoping to get peoples opinion on here regarding a few shotguns I have been looking at lately. I started shooting sporting clays a year ago and am really enjoying it! I placed 3rd at nationals this year in my class shooting my Browning Citori 625 Feather. It's a great gun but only has 28" barrels and at 6'3 I feel like I could benefit from a longer gun. I have shot a few 30" and 32" guns and they seem to fit better. I have shot a Blaser and it felt great. Ultimately I would like the Blaser F3 Super Sporting but am having trouble justifying the cost as I would also like to add sub gauge tubes at some point. Today I was able to shoot a Beretta 682 and it shouldered well and had a good feel as did a friends Zoli Z Sport that I shot as well. I also stopped at Bass Pro and shouldered a Guerini Magnus, it was the one with the dark heat treated metal on the receiver. It has a great feel and balance. I am not too familiar with the Guerini but it was new in the box for $4299. I also shouldered a used Kolar Sporting with adjustable aluminum but plate and full sub gauge tubes for $7500. Again that's a little on the pricey side, especially for a used gun. I am sure it has many miles left in it though. I know these guns really run the spectrum but wanted to hear what you guys thought of the Guerini, Beretta 682, Kolar, Blaser and Zoli? I know the Kolar is a top tier gun but am not sure how dependable the Guerini and Zoli's are. Thanks for any info and advice. Last edited by JW74; November 24, 2011 at 12:24 AM.

November 24, 2011, 09:19 AM	#2
hopper810 Member Join Date: November 3, 2009 Location: East Tx Posts: 60	They are all good guns,good luck deciding Wish I had your dilemma. __________________ Jerry

November 29, 2011, 03:05 AM	#16
Slugo Junior member Join Date: September 15, 2001 Location: Central PA Posts: 1,007	don't count on the Blaser... it's a very nice gun and one well worth consideration. If I bought one, it would definitely be a new model plain vanilla F3 sporter. Many earlier Blasers had faulty triggers, but that has been put to bed with the newer guns. Also, remember Kemen and Ranato Gamba!?! Everybody predicted them to land next to Krieghoff and Perazzi. Never happened. Same can happen with Blaser. Let's move on to Caesar Guerini. Nice looking guns, reminiscent to a 682 Beretta, even prettier. Great customer service if you need it, and allot better than Beretta who treats their customers with cactus thorns. CG guns remind me of Hyundai cars, 10 year/100,000 mile warranty, because that's the only reason people buy them. It's a good marketing gimmick. I would move Browning (Miroku) right underneath the two K guns and Perazzi in the durability and fit and finish department. Believe me, I've owned them all. Miroku of Japan has one of the most modern gun making facilities on the planet. The Citori is a direct descendant of the late/great JMB. Their customer service is also excellent. Let's see how many CG's match the Citori over the next decade in the aging department. If I had to buy an Italian gun, it would most likely be a new Zoli. Other than the Perazzi, they appear to be one of the better shotguns out there from pasta land. Just my 2 cents...

December 1, 2011, 12:00 PM	#23
BigJimP Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2005 Posts: 13,195	I've tested a lot of guns with full length tubes ....and I just didn't like them because of the difference in weight issue. The ones I considered the most - were a Citori XS Skeet 20ga ( with 28ga and .410 tubes ) ....and a Citori XS Skeet 12ga with 20ga, 28ga and .410 tubes ....both guns were 30" barrels. In the 12ga Citori XS Skeet with 30" barrels and adj comb - the gun weighs about 8.5 lbs ...but when you put the full length tubes in it ...it added about 10 - 12 oz ...so it went up to between 9.25 and 9.5 lbs ...making it a little clumsy ( as a skeet gun, sporting clays guns ). In the 20ga Citori XS Skeet with 30" barrels and adj comb - the gun weighs about 7.5 lbs ...so again adding the 10-12 oz for tubes ...it goes up to about 8.25 lbs .../ so as a stand alone 20ga ...its way lighter than the same model 12ga ( 8.5 lbs ) ...but with the tubes in it for 28ga and .410 it felt pretty good. In the 20ga ...when you go to a 28ga tube set ----they're really thin / same on a 12ga when you go to a 20ga tube set ( they're thin ) ...and occasionally there will be cracking issues around the extractors / ejectors on the thinner tubes... Bottom line ...unless I was going to spend the money for a carrier barrel and do it right ...I decided tubes were not my best option. So I ended up buying a stand alone XS Skeet 20ga, and a stand alone 28ga and a stand alone .410 ... This was a few yrs back / and I guess in all 4 guns (actually I have 5 - because I have a backup gun in 12ga as well / all in the Citori XS Skeet models, and 30" barrels ---- the 20ga, 28ga and .410 are all built on the 20ga receiver )....but I've got about $ 15,000 in replacement cost today on all 5 guns - or call it $12,000 for 4 guns. So you have to weigh the $ 12,000 for 4 guns ...against the cost of a carrier barrel and subgague tubes and chokes ...etc ..( and I'd say with a carrier barrel and everything its about $ 20,000 ) ....so its a little cheaper with stand alone guns ....but its an inferior system ...even though I've tried to weight all 4 guns so they are identical ....they're still just a hair different...and the triggers in all 4 guns are pretty good ...but not identical... So its kind of an apples to oranges thing ....both work / or all 3 work ....the single stand alone with tubes is not the best ( too much weight difference), stand alone guns means you have to pack up and carry 4 guns around ..and they're close but not perfect ....and the carrier barrel option - which is pretty close to perfect but a little more money. http://thefiringline.com/forums/atta...9&d=1281543688 So here are my primary guns --- all Citori XS Skeet models, 30" barrels top one is the 12ga, then 20ga, the 28ga and the .410 ....and since my semi-serious days of competition are over ...frankly, I like having 4 stand alone guns ...not having to fuss with tube sets...etc. But in your case - if you really want to get into this in a big way / the carrier barrel is really the way to do / and its an investment - that I think you will get your money out of long term as well - if you take care of the gun and the tubes, etc. Now - I do like a heavier gun for Trap ...where I go to an XT ( Citori XT with 32" barrels at around 10lbs ...and I have one that is a stock gun with adj comb and one with a GraCoil and a fancy upgraded stock that I bought used ...) and I like them both ...and I can shoot them in skeet and sporting ...but they are really clumsy ( in my buddies words / they're like trying to swing a big ole sewer pipe ) when I was just fooling around and shooting skeet with the one with the GraCoil one day ...just for laughs. http://thefiringline.com/forums/atta...8&d=1280945127 Both nice guns ...just not a good sporting or skeet gun, in my opinion. Last edited by BigJimP; December 1, 2011 at 12:32 PM.

November 24, 2011, 10:11 AM	#3
COK Senior Member Join Date: June 18, 2002 Posts: 173	What was said above ,they are all good quality firearms and should last a long time . For me it would come down to what fit ,felt the best, looked good to me and fit my budget. I have little experience with Guerini though have a friend that loves his, I never any trouble with the others . I myself am always comfortable with the Beretta - but that's me.

November 24, 2011, 11:53 AM	#4
TheKlawMan Junior member Join Date: June 23, 2009 Location: Orange County, CA Posts: 2,149	One thing about the Guerini over Browning and Beretta (I know naught about the others) is I have heard it has an excellent warranty department and customer service.

November 24, 2011, 11:55 AM	#5
zippy13 Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2008 Location: SoCal Posts: 6,442	I'm happy with my 682. Beretta has been in business for almost 500 years and make everyone else seem like newbies.

November 24, 2011, 03:13 PM	#6
oneounceload Junior member Join Date: April 18, 2008 Location: N. Central Florida Posts: 8,518	Buy the Blaser - you want it, and the cost of the gun is the least costly factor compared to targets and ammo, etc..............

November 25, 2011, 07:45 PM	#7
BigJimP Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2005 Posts: 13,195	You obviously shoot well enough - to know what stock dimensions will fit you ..so that isn't a factor. In terms of durability - I don't think there is a bad gun in your mix of options ...so I don't know there is much of a reason to pick one over the other...but if it were me, I'd take a real hard look at Kolar, Krieghoff and Blaser. If you want to go with a tube set ....at your level of competence -- I'd certainly consider a gun with a carrier barrel vs just tubing a 12ga. Its a way better option long term. The 625 Feather ...is a light gun ...and has a lot of drop at the comb and heel ...so make you have a gun with some built in adjustability - but then I prefer parallel adj combs.

November 26, 2011, 12:11 AM	#8
JW74 Member Join Date: September 5, 2007 Posts: 89	BigJim I am definitely looking to have an adjustable stock on my next gun for that very reason. I also have been checking on guns that I can get a carrier barrel for the sub gauge tubes to fit in. One of the positives for Beretta is that you can find carrier barrels for a reasonable price fairly easily. Speaking of carrier barrels, is there a large difference on how the gun handles with fitted tubes in the main 12ga barrel as opposed to the carrier barrel that has had some of the weight removed to help keep the weight consistent?

November 26, 2011, 12:23 AM	#9
oregunner Senior Member Join Date: May 12, 2011 Location: Oregon, of course Posts: 136	I have a Browning skeet gun with a set of Kolar subgauge tubes. Shooting it as a 12 gauge, without tubes, it feels like an entirely different gun, it is that much lighter. I have gone to a different gun for 12 gauge, (a semi-auto) and only shoot the Browning with tubes. Mark

November 26, 2011, 02:28 PM	#10
zippy13 Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2008 Location: SoCal Posts: 6,442	Shooting it as a 12 gauge, without tubes, it feels like an entirely different gun, it is that much lighter. That's why Kolar (and others) sell barrel weights to compensate for the weight differential, or you can go the carrier barrel routine. IMHO, folks who don't shoot their tube gun in 12-ga events typically do so for the reduced recoil of a gas gun. If you practice all week with your .410 tubes, then shooting in a weekend's 12-ga event can be a rude awakening.

November 27, 2011, 01:34 AM	#11
JW74 Member Join Date: September 5, 2007 Posts: 89	I think I would be inclined to add barrel weights when shooting the 12 gauge in an effort to keep the weight the same as when the sub gauge tubes are in the gun. It seems like the much cheaper rout to go than buying a separate carrier barrel that could run anywhere from $1000 for a Beretta to $2500 for the carrier barrel on the Blaser.

November 27, 2011, 01:21 PM	#12
zippy13 Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2008 Location: SoCal Posts: 6,442	Also, the weighted 12-ga will have less recoil, and a smoother swing, than a lighter carrier barrel set-up. The difference isn't monumental, once I forgot to attach the weight after removing my tubes and I didn't figure it out until Skeet's Station 7.

November 28, 2011, 05:23 PM	#13
BigJimP Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2005 Posts: 13,195	Barrel weights are a decent solution ...as long as the balance point remains identical to what it was before you added the weight. If it moves forward -- even an inch / I wouldn't recommend it. Its surprising how much difference there is in the handling and swing characteristics in a gun that weighs even 10oz more ...at least for me / but maybe you're good enough - that it won't bother you. Yes, carrier barrels are expensive ...but companies like Briley ...will also bore out a 12ga barrel and turn it into a carrier barrel / I think for around $ 1,000 for a customer supplied barrel - and fit it to the receiver, etc... But keep in mind ...in your shooting career ...since you're already at a high level ....the cost of the gun / to get you to that elite level ....vs cost of shells, entry fees, travel, etc ...is the least of your cost factors - even in you spend $ 30K on this new gun !! Compromising on that gun now ...may hold you back in your development down the road ...so I'd seriously suggest looking for a carrier barrel ...and a shop that knows how to make it correctly / or go to the mfg directly ! I don't compete at your level ...so a carrier barrel is just not something I've ever done .../ I considered it - when I was younger and more competitive ...but in the senior ranks now / and eyesight failing ...its no longer worth it to me / and I just shoot for fun ....not in tournaments much anymore - except locally.

November 29, 2011, 12:11 AM	#15
JW74 Member Join Date: September 5, 2007 Posts: 89	BigJimP you make a good point as did oneounceload in that the cost of the gun is the least of the cost factors. I have been thinking about that over the last couple of days. I guess I wouldn't want to settle on a lesser gun only to regret it down the road and then end up upgrading at some point anyway. I don't imagine I will ever shoot the high end P or K guns but am leaning heavily towards to Blaser F3 Super Sport at this time. I also think the price of the Blasers is going to climb in the next few years as they become more and more popular, not that they aren't already.

November 29, 2011, 11:35 AM	#17
oneounceload Junior member Join Date: April 18, 2008 Location: N. Central Florida Posts: 8,518	It isn't that Japanese Brownings are poorly built - they aren't; I own several because i can't afford the Perazzi yet. However, their barrels are thick and heavy - if you look at them, there's no swaged bulge at the end for the choke tubes like you see on guns with thinner (and better balanced) barrels - even the K-80 has that. Why doesn't browning? because they are so thick already, they don't need to do it. This makes the gun very barrel heavy - not always a bad thing, but definitely not as manageable as something else - even the old Superposeds - THOSE have great barrels, very well struck, ring like a chime, and balance better between the hands

November 29, 2011, 12:28 PM	#18
BigJimP Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2005 Posts: 13,195	Picking a gun for a serious competition shooter like you - that might fire 30,000 shells a yr ( 1,200 boxes)......or a guy like some of us that just want to have fun - but still shoot 15,000 shells a year (600 boxes) or so ....or a guy that just wants to shoots some clays once in a while - that might fire 2,000 shells a year ( 80 boxes)...are very different things. If I had to list the top 5 O/U mfg's as I see them ( and with full disclosure / I have about 13 Browning O/U's - all Citori's and all Miroku guns - in my safe today ...5 field guns - Lightning's, 2 -XT Trap models, 5 - XS Skeet models and a BT-100 )....but I buy Browning Citori's because they fit me / and I like their fit and finish - and I wanted stand alone guns in every gague vs a better competition system like carrier barrels and tubes ).... but having said that ....my top 6 would be: 1. Krieghoff 2. Kolar 3. Blaser 4. Perazzi 5. Browning 6. Beretta I don't think there is a bad gun in the mix / and any gun made by those 6 companies will easily be a 500,000 shell gun before you have to consider any major rebuilds...if even then ... For a pedestrian shooter like myself ...that won a few tournaments and state titles ( in class, never overall !!! ) in sporting clays ...I fall easily into that middle group of shooters just out to have some fun ...and shoot 15,000 shells a yr or so. Any of the guns from Browning or Beretta will meet my needs ( but we buy what fits us / and at 6'5" and 275 lbs - what fits me / vs zippy or Oneounce might be very different). In that top 4 ...the Blaser's are getting a lot of attention .../ but nobody knows where it may end up ...or who may buy them out or whatever may happen. All of the top 4 are big time players ..and big time shooters are sponsored by one of them / and hopefully you will be someday as well ...and then they'll tell you what you'll be shooting. In the meantime --- a Blaser is not a bad choice ...but neither are any of the top 6 ...in my view. Oneounce likes the Belgium made Brownings a lot more than I do / and he likes CG and Zoli as well - way more than I do ..../ but I'd probably put them in 7th or 8th on my list .../ but like Slugo said too ...its just my 2 cents. But what I do know ...if you're going to shoot sporting ..seriously / or Skeet ...then you need to consider a Carrier Barrel gun / and a company that will fine tune your fit - and your triggers to your liking. My primary guns are the Citori XS Skeet models - 30" barrels, adj combs ..at around 8 1/2 lbs ...in 12ga, 20ga, 28ga and .410 ...and I shoot them for sporting, skeet and some field hunting. For Trap I go to a longer and heavier gun - Citori XT Trap in a 32" and around 10 lbs. I have a nice BT-100 ...but rarely shoot it / and I'll probably sell it ..but those are my go to guns. But if I had enought talent - and was 30 yrs younger - I'd invest in one of the top 4 mfg's - with a carrier barrel / even if I shot the 12ga 90% of the time in sporting ( only the bigger shoots - like state tournaments out here have any sub-gague events ). But I'm not going to drop $ 35 K on a new gun ....when I only shoot 1/3 of the guns in my safe now ...and for me today, breaking 70 on a sporting course is a good day for me / or in the low 90's at skeet / or mid 90's in Trap ....its just how it is / as most of us get into our 60's and the eyesight goes ....and shoulders, and elbows, and feet...( and hemmeroids ..just kidding ) ...

November 29, 2011, 01:18 PM	#19
zippy13 Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2008 Location: SoCal Posts: 6,442	JW74, I'm going to play devil's advocate: Do you NEED a new gun or do you WANT a new gun? You said, you feel you'd do better with a longer gun. Are you going to spend $5K+ on a hunch? Why not just get a new heavier/longer Browning? I know, a shiny new higher grade gun is appealing; but, in all reality, are you ready for it? Before you go from a generic gun, like your Browning, to a much more specific gun like those you've mentioned there are a bunch of decisions to be made. These guns offer varying specifications, and it's these individual specs that should determine your selection of make and model. With just a year at the clays, you may not have the experience to adequately evaluate features of a higher grade gun. This is exemplified by your comment, "I have shot a few 30" and 32" guns and they seem to fit better." Barrel length has nothing to do with gun fit, it has to do with swing dynamics. I have a 28" Perazzi and one with a 30s. They have the same action, stock and forend -- they fit the same. The same holds true for my Beretta combo with two vastly different barrels -- it doesn't change the fit. Yes, they all swing differently. A fancy new gun you will look cool at the gun club, but you want to avoid a costly mistake. You need a new gun when your existing gun is the limiting factor of your progress. Have you reached the Browning's full potential in just a year? Please, do yourself a favor, don't rush into getting a new gun until you've had a real chance to evaluate what you really want/need from a new gun. When I got my first Skeet gun (in the late 60s) it had 26" barrels. Then, the theory was that 26s would get you on target quicker. We learned that it will also get you off target just as quickly because 26s are jumpy. Are you experiencing the same thing with your Feather -- do you find targets are getting under your barrels (a dire condition) while swinging? The trend has been to longer barrels, but some are taking it too far. I'm your size and find that a heavier gun swings better for me. But, a heavier gun doesn't necessarily mean a longer gun. Have you tried hanging some wight on your existing gun? It's an inexpensive first step in learning what works best for you. There is no way of telling how a gun is going to perform simply by shouldering it in a gun store. You've got to shoot a bunch of different guns to find which specific model suits you. Good luck, and to borrow from Slogo (who borrowed from Big Jim), "Sometimes the search is most of the fun!"

November 29, 2011, 10:19 PM	#20
JW74 Member Join Date: September 5, 2007 Posts: 89	BigJimP, thanks for your insight, it's greatly appreciated! I am still in the middle group of shooters you described shooting about 12000 rounds this past year. I hope to shoot more in the 2012 season with more registered shoots as well. I would like to get a gun that I can eventually get a carrier barrel for even if it's a year or two down the road. As in your area we really only have sub gauge classes at the state shoot and at nationals. I was planning on going with the Briley Side-kicks for now as I will only shoot 20 and 28 gauge at next year’s state shoot and at nationals. I don't really expect to be highly competitive in the sub gauges but want to shoot them for fun. I figure why not, if I travel all the way to the state shoot or national shoot I might as well shoot as much as I can while I am there. If the Side-Kick tubes work well I will stick with them for now as I can always trade them in towards fitted tubes with Briley down the road. It would be nice to be one of the fellas that shoots well enough to get free guns but that is definitely the pie in the sky for sure! Slugo I agree with you about the Zoli being a solid contender as well. My buddy has A Z-Sport Bilanx. I don’t know much about that model but it’s a nice looking gun with 32” barrels. We are going shooting on Friday and I am going to take it for a test drive. Zippy13, thanks for the grounding post. You make a lot of valid points. I did mean to say that the longer barreled gun swung better for me not fit better. I worded that incorrectly. I haven’t found that the targets are getting under my barrels while swinging the gun fortunately. I definitely plan to shoot as many guns as I can before I buy and if I don’t shoot any better with a longer or upper level gun I will hold off on throwing money at something that’s isn’t the right gun for me. I will admit there is some intrigue to a new gun, especially one specific to sporting clays as opposed to my current field gun which as I mentioned earlier is a good gun. I can’t honestly say that my 625 is the limiting factor to my shooting. I still have a long way to go. I did notice a significant improvement in my shooting this past summer when I switched from my Winchester SX3 to my Citori 625 though. Heavier seems to feel smoother but I am sure there is a point of diminishing returns with that as well. I am going to keep shooting my Citori 625 through the winter while I continue to try and improve and also test some other guns out too. I agree "Sometimes the search is most of the fun!". I find that I am also learning a lot in the process as well.

November 30, 2011, 12:32 PM	#21
BigJimP Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2005 Posts: 13,195	and no matter what --- have fun with the process. You're not going to be too happy with the "side kicks" if you take them out and pattern them. They're ok for a few laughs ...but imagine how aggravated you'll be if you shoot the sub-gague events at State ...and you lose another title by 1 or 2 birds ...because you were shooting the "side kicks" ....vs a good tubed gun / or even a stand alone gun in 28ga or .410 ... and I know / in my state sproting tournament - partly because I won the 28ga events (in class) 2 yrs in a row ...and lost the .410 events 2 yrs in a row ( to the same guy / by 1 bird each yr ).../ but at least I knew it wasn't my equipment that let me down ... The entry fees, the practice time, the ammo etc on sub-gagues ...is not insignificant...

December 1, 2011, 01:53 AM	#22
JW74 Member Join Date: September 5, 2007 Posts: 89	BigJimP when you ran full length sub gauge tubes did your gun have the "pig on a shovel" feel to it compared to shooting the 12 gauge, or was it fairly easy to get used to the added or reduced weight when switching from to the other? I would like to experiment with a set of side-kick tubes before buying after reading your last post. No point in wasting money on those if they are going to be a weak link.

December 1, 2011, 01:57 PM	#24
zippy13 Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2008 Location: SoCal Posts: 6,442	Big Jim, being a casual shooter you're missing the major aspect of the carrier barrel system: Gauge change time and convenience. Back in the day, a lot of shooters competed with Skeet sets -- a 12-ga O/U with extra 20, 28 & .410 barrels. Folks generally got better scores with sets than with four different guns. Having the same stock and receiver was a big bonus, the down side was cost. And, there was a big difference between the 12-ga and .410-bore barrels. Then Skeeters discovered full length tubes. You could shoot 4-gauges from the same 12-ga barrel cheaper than with a 4-barrel set. And, as a bonus, the added weigh of the tubes smoothed the swing of the short barreled Skeet guns. Tube scores soared and the popularity of expensive 4-barrel sets plummeted. IMHO, the weakness of the tube system was a matter of housekeeping -- you had to have your 12-ga barrel squeaky clean before inserting your tubes. You couldn't change gauge as quickly with a tubes as you could with a 4-barrel set. These were the days before fuzzy sticks and bore snakes. Then the carrier barrel set-up was introduced -- you didn't dirty your tube carrying barrel so gauge changes were much simpler. (Of course, if your barrels weren't identical you lost the "common barrel" advantage.) And, you didn't have to remember to install your barrel weight when shooting 12-ga. To the casual and mid-class shooter, a carrier barrel may not sound cost effective. But, if you're a scratch shooter, you'll soon appreciate the advantage of quick gauge changes when they are calling the shoot-off squads, as daylight starts to fade, at the conclusion of a major tournament.

December 1, 2011, 02:13 PM	#25
BigJimP Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2005 Posts: 13,195	Sure zippy, things evolve over time ..../just like barrel length issues too... But in my mind - cleaning a carrier barrel to change it over from a 20ga to a 28ga ...still takes the same amount of time ...as cleaning a stand alone 20ga gun so you can drop the 28ga tube set into it.... so sure - having stand alone guns or a 4 barrel set were faster to transition ...but like you say with fuzzy sticks and bore snakes these days the transition can be done inside of 10 min probably with no issues for changing tube sets in a carrier barrel or in a stand alone gun / but you're right / when they're calling squads out at the end of the day ...they don't want to wait 10 or 15 min .... The carrier barrels I've seen are bored out - to accept the tube sets ...so the carrier barrel with the tubes in it ...is identical in weight to the stand alone 12ga barrel. The 4 barrel sets are another option ...and I see some mfg's are making them again ...but I don't think they're that good an option ..and certainly not that good for a serious competition shooter like yourself - if you were going into it today / with the options we have now.