TC Encore Katahdin:S&W .460 vs.500

Skeets · May 21, 2015, 09:25 AM

Wanting to switch my Encore ML to a carbine for deer.Using scope,shots at 150 yds.could be expected.Sure would like your thoughts,from chambering to impact,with these cartridges.TIA as always.

Doyle · May 21, 2015, 09:54 AM

Both will give you huge recoil. One member here was having a terrible time trying to get his .460 to group.

Personally, I'd go with the .460 and then use .454 Casul ammo for the distance you are stating.

Unlicensed Dremel · May 21, 2015, 01:01 PM

If you're gonna go big, do it right - the .500.

taylorce1 · May 24, 2015, 10:08 AM

Have you thought about a .357 Maximum? Using it in an Encore rifle barrel and 180 grain SSP from Hornady would make an awesome 150 yard plus deer rifle. It would be far more pleasurable to shoot than the .460 barrel.

MarkCO · May 24, 2015, 10:33 AM

.444 Marlin, .45-70 are also good choices. I would get the .460 over the .500.

Dr_2_B · May 24, 2015, 11:12 AM

It's a sad day when I see the word "Katahdin" and I think it reads "Kardashian." Excuse me while I go gouge my eyes out.

darkgael · May 26, 2015, 03:14 AM

It is a light gun. Recoil may be objectionable. I have a 15 inch pistol barrel chambered for the 500. Yes, it is a different animal than the Katahdin but recoil using heavy bullets was painful from shot one.
Perhaps the carbine will mitigate that to a degree. Perhaps.

Capt Rick Hiott · May 26, 2015, 06:55 AM

,,,,go with the .460. If the recoil is to much, you can shoot the .454 or the .45
long colt.......

Doyle · May 26, 2015, 07:40 AM

Quote:

.444 Marlin, .45-70 are also good choices. I would get the .460 over the .500.

I don't think the .444 and 45-70 are allowed in Indiana. There is an overall case length for deer hunting. The .454 Casul is just under and the .460 is over.

TimSr · May 26, 2015, 01:47 PM

I doubt the deer would react differently with either, but the 460 will be a lot more versitile, and less expensive to practice with, even if you handload.

Sevens · May 26, 2015, 02:35 PM

I have shot a decent volume of ammo from the big X-frame S&W revolvers in both of these rounds and in my opinion, they handle the massive recoil every bit as well as I should think could be possible. Given that a "full slate of shooting" is typically going to be a handful of rounds in one session (not 50-200rds), I find them manageable and even enjoyable to shoot.

The -WORST- physical abuse that I have EVER put myself through with a firearm has been that .500 S&W Magnum barrel on a T/C Encore. Four shots, completely awful, straight punishment.

If I wanted to shoot .500 Mag, the S&W is the only good platform, IMO.

skizzums · May 26, 2015, 03:41 PM

.35 whelen?

Doyle · May 26, 2015, 05:27 PM

Quote:

35 whelen?

NO. Read my posts. The dude is in Indiana. They have some REALLY funky laws about what you can use to hunt deer with. They only started allowing any rifles at all just in the last few years. Now, they can use only certain "pistol caliber" rifles - i.e. .357, .44mag, .454 Casul, etc. They must be straight-walled cartridges with a case length no shorter than 1.6" and no longer than 1.8".

taylorce1 · May 27, 2015, 12:58 AM

Unless things have changed recently, you can use a bottleneck cartridge in Indiana. The . 358X1.8 aka Hoosier (shortened .358 Win) sprang up as well as many many other shortened wildcat .358 based on WSSM and . 35 Rem cartridges. The WSSM is the best of the bunch usually achieving .35 Whelen performance.

Doyle · May 27, 2015, 08:23 AM

Taylorce1, I don't think so on the bottleneck (perhaps if they don't exceed the 1.8 but that would be a funky looking cartridge). It looks like the .460 S&W is now on their OK list. That makes the process even easier.

Quote:

Rifles with cartridges that fire a bullet of .357-inch diameter or larger; have a minimum case length of 1.16 inches; and have a maximum case length of 1.8 inches are legal to use only during the deer firearms and special antlerless seasons. Some cartridges legal for deer hunting include the .357 Magnum, .38-.40 Winchester, .41 Magnum, .41 Special, .44 Magnum, .44 Special, .44-.40 Winchester, .45 Colt, .454 Casull, .458 SOCOM, .475 Linebaugh, .480 Ruger, .50 Action Express, .500 S&W, .460 Smith & Wesson, .450 Bushmaster, and .50 Beowulf.

taylorce1 · May 27, 2015, 08:57 AM

The rule doesn't state straight walled cartridges only. Indiana with the changes to allow rifle cartridges is a wildcatters dream came true with the length restrictions and the birth of cartridges like the .358 Hoosier were born. The WSSM cartridge with a case length of 1.670" fits perfectly into the IN regs and the 54 grain case capacity puts it in the Whelen power range.

This all might be moot in the future, as there is a reg change discussion in Indiana to allow all rifle cartridges .243/6mm and up.

Doyle · May 27, 2015, 09:26 AM

I've never seen the .358 Hoosier so I'll have to take your word for it. Yes, it does sound like a wildcatter would have a field day there in IN. As to the rule change, I read somewhere last week that it was shot down - at least for another year until it gets brought back up again.

Back to the OP's question, I'm thinking he's probably not a wildcatter (and maybe not even a handloader). With that in mind, I'm still thinking the best Encore barrel for him is a .460 Katahdin. Ammo is more readily available (especially if you use .454 Casul) and it won't beat you up as badly. Plus, you get the ability to use .45 Colt plinking rounds.

Skeets · May 27, 2015, 05:24 PM

In myOP, one reason for changing;just tired of 12ga.slug recoil and shotgun slugs in general.Thanks for saving me from myself!!Just wondering how do those calibers compare in recoil to a 12ga. 1oz.slug in my Encore?

Doyle · May 27, 2015, 07:39 PM

Quote:

Just wondering how do those calibers compare in recoil to a 12ga. 1oz.slug in my Encore?

When compared to the 500, the slug would be "pleasant". .460 isn't going to be much better. Like I said earlier, you can use the .460 with .454 Casul loads. They will be much more tamer to shoot.

darkgael · May 28, 2015, 04:53 AM

Recoil. The 500 S&W shooting a 500 grain bullet at 1775fps
from a seven pound gun will have about 47 ft.lbs of free recoil. A 12 gauge one ounce slug at 1560 fps from the same weight gun will have about 30 ft.lbs.

johnwilliamson062 · May 29, 2015, 02:43 AM

If you go with 460 SW absolutely DO NOT buy a factory barrel. They use the 45 LC twist and it does not work at all for 460 and has poor performance for .454. Search the internet and you will find many reports.

With the change to carbines from pistols in Ohio I dropped the 460 and got a 45-70 barrel.

TMD · May 29, 2015, 05:29 AM

Quote:

In myOP, one reason for changing;just tired of 12ga.slug recoil and shotgun slugs in general.Thanks for saving me from myself!!Just wondering how do those calibers compare in recoil to a 12ga. 1oz.slug in my Encore?

As 12ga slug gun pales in comparison to the .460 & .500 out of a T/C.

P-990 · May 30, 2015, 01:00 PM

I understand it's not a legal option for Indiana hunting, but I used to have a 20" .45-70 Encore Katahdin (and a 50-caliber muzzleloader barrel in the same configuration). It earned the nickname "The Punisher". Six-pound fixed-breech carbine, 300-grain slugs at 1900-fps, you can figure the rest.

A standard 1-oz 12-gauge slug in just about any conventional set-up is a put-tee cat in comparison. In fact, 100-grains of Triple Seven or Pyrodex throwing 250-grain sabots in the .50-caliber barrel were far more comfortable to shoot.

(I offer this comparison as the .460 and .500 S&W are definitely in the same power-class as the .45-70 in a carbine.)

johnwilliamson062 · May 30, 2015, 10:31 PM

Like the 460, the 45-70 offers a large range of power out of an Encore. Well, that is what I hear. I just received my barrel this week.

I am planning to use a weighted Encore though. Not sure if I will permanently add lead to cutouts in the stock or find a way to add detachable bags, but I plan to add a few pounds.

45-70 outside the Indiana length restrictions?

Skeets · June 1, 2015, 02:06 PM

One more BIG thank-you to TFL for your thoughtful and eye-opening replies.Thanks guys!

May 21, 2015, 09:25 AM	#1
Skeets Member in memoriam Join Date: April 6, 2015 Location: Indiana Posts: 583	TC Encore Katahdin:S&W .460 vs.500 Wanting to switch my Encore ML to a carbine for deer.Using scope,shots at 150 yds.could be expected.Sure would like your thoughts,from chambering to impact,with these cartridges.TIA as always. __________________ Skeets "Over Kill Never Fails"

May 24, 2015, 10:08 AM	#4
taylorce1 Senior Member Join Date: November 18, 2005 Location: On the Santa Fe Trail Posts: 8,249	Have you thought about a .357 Maximum? Using it in an Encore rifle barrel and 180 grain SSP from Hornady would make an awesome 150 yard plus deer rifle. It would be far more pleasurable to shoot than the .460 barrel. __________________ NRA Life Member

May 24, 2015, 10:33 AM	#5
MarkCO Senior Member Join Date: October 21, 1998 Location: Colorado, USA Posts: 4,308	.444 Marlin, .45-70 are also good choices. I would get the .460 over the .500. __________________ Good Shooting, MarkCO www.CarbonArms.us

May 24, 2015, 11:12 AM	#6
Dr_2_B Senior Member Join Date: December 21, 2005 Location: midwest Posts: 502	It's a sad day when I see the word "Katahdin" and I think it reads "Kardashian." Excuse me while I go gouge my eyes out. __________________ If you're not a liberal when you're 20, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative when you're 40, you have no head. - adapted from Francois Guisot (often wrongly attributed to Winston Churchill)

May 26, 2015, 03:14 AM	#7
darkgael Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2006 Location: Homes in Brooklyn, NY and in Pennsylvania. Posts: 5,473	Encote It is a light gun. Recoil may be objectionable. I have a 15 inch pistol barrel chambered for the 500. Yes, it is a different animal than the Katahdin but recoil using heavy bullets was painful from shot one. Perhaps the carbine will mitigate that to a degree. Perhaps. __________________ “Auto racing, bull fighting, and mountain climbing are the only real sports ... all others are games.” Ernest Hemingway ... NRA Life Member

May 21, 2015, 09:54 AM	#2
Doyle Senior Member Join Date: June 20, 2007 Location: Rainbow City, Alabama Posts: 7,167	Both will give you huge recoil. One member here was having a terrible time trying to get his .460 to group. Personally, I'd go with the .460 and then use .454 Casul ammo for the distance you are stating.

May 21, 2015, 01:01 PM	#3
Unlicensed Dremel Junior member Join Date: February 13, 2014 Location: Flathead Valley, MT Posts: 2,187	If you're gonna go big, do it right - the .500.

May 26, 2015, 06:55 AM	#8
Capt Rick Hiott Senior Member Join Date: August 30, 2010 Posts: 376	,,,,go with the .460. If the recoil is to much, you can shoot the .454 or the .45 long colt....... __________________ Capt Rick Hiott Charleston,SC

May 26, 2015, 01:47 PM	#10
TimSr Senior Member Join Date: March 8, 2013 Location: Rittman, Ohio Posts: 2,074	I doubt the deer would react differently with either, but the 460 will be a lot more versitile, and less expensive to practice with, even if you handload.

May 26, 2015, 02:35 PM	#11
Sevens Senior Member Join Date: July 28, 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 11,756	I have shot a decent volume of ammo from the big X-frame S&W revolvers in both of these rounds and in my opinion, they handle the massive recoil every bit as well as I should think could be possible. Given that a "full slate of shooting" is typically going to be a handful of rounds in one session (not 50-200rds), I find them manageable and even enjoyable to shoot. The -WORST- physical abuse that I have EVER put myself through with a firearm has been that .500 S&W Magnum barrel on a T/C Encore. Four shots, completely awful, straight punishment. If I wanted to shoot .500 Mag, the S&W is the only good platform, IMO. __________________ *Attention Brass rats and other reloaders:* I really need .327 Federal Magnum brass, no lot size too small. Tell me what caliber you need and I'll see what I have to swap. PM me and we'll discuss.

May 26, 2015, 03:41 PM	#12
skizzums Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2013 Location: Douglasville, Ga Posts: 4,615	.35 whelen? __________________ My head is bloody, but unbowed

May 27, 2015, 12:58 AM	#14
taylorce1 Senior Member Join Date: November 18, 2005 Location: On the Santa Fe Trail Posts: 8,249	Unless things have changed recently, you can use a bottleneck cartridge in Indiana. The . 358X1.8 aka Hoosier (shortened .358 Win) sprang up as well as many many other shortened wildcat .358 based on WSSM and . 35 Rem cartridges. The WSSM is the best of the bunch usually achieving .35 Whelen performance. __________________ NRA Life Member Last edited by taylorce1; May 27, 2015 at 07:25 AM.

May 27, 2015, 08:57 AM	#16
taylorce1 Senior Member Join Date: November 18, 2005 Location: On the Santa Fe Trail Posts: 8,249	The rule doesn't state straight walled cartridges only. Indiana with the changes to allow rifle cartridges is a wildcatters dream came true with the length restrictions and the birth of cartridges like the .358 Hoosier were born. The WSSM cartridge with a case length of 1.670" fits perfectly into the IN regs and the 54 grain case capacity puts it in the Whelen power range. This all might be moot in the future, as there is a reg change discussion in Indiana to allow all rifle cartridges .243/6mm and up. __________________ NRA Life Member

May 27, 2015, 09:26 AM	#17
Doyle Senior Member Join Date: June 20, 2007 Location: Rainbow City, Alabama Posts: 7,167	I've never seen the .358 Hoosier so I'll have to take your word for it. Yes, it does sound like a wildcatter would have a field day there in IN. As to the rule change, I read somewhere last week that it was shot down - at least for another year until it gets brought back up again. Back to the OP's question, I'm thinking he's probably not a wildcatter (and maybe not even a handloader). With that in mind, I'm still thinking the best Encore barrel for him is a .460 Katahdin. Ammo is more readily available (especially if you use .454 Casul) and it won't beat you up as badly. Plus, you get the ability to use .45 Colt plinking rounds.

May 27, 2015, 05:24 PM	#18
Skeets Member in memoriam Join Date: April 6, 2015 Location: Indiana Posts: 583	Frying Pan to Fire? In myOP, one reason for changing;just tired of 12ga.slug recoil and shotgun slugs in general.Thanks for saving me from myself!!Just wondering how do those calibers compare in recoil to a 12ga. 1oz.slug in my Encore? __________________ Skeets "Over Kill Never Fails"

May 28, 2015, 04:53 AM	#20
darkgael Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2006 Location: Homes in Brooklyn, NY and in Pennsylvania. Posts: 5,473	Recoil. The 500 S&W shooting a 500 grain bullet at 1775fps from a seven pound gun will have about 47 ft.lbs of free recoil. A 12 gauge one ounce slug at 1560 fps from the same weight gun will have about 30 ft.lbs. __________________ “Auto racing, bull fighting, and mountain climbing are the only real sports ... all others are games.” Ernest Hemingway ... NRA Life Member Last edited by darkgael; May 28, 2015 at 12:08 PM.

May 29, 2015, 02:43 AM	#21
johnwilliamson062 Junior member Join Date: May 16, 2008 Posts: 9,995	If you go with 460 SW absolutely DO NOT buy a factory barrel. They use the 45 LC twist and it does not work at all for 460 and has poor performance for .454. Search the internet and you will find many reports. With the change to carbines from pistols in Ohio I dropped the 460 and got a 45-70 barrel. Last edited by johnwilliamson062; May 29, 2015 at 06:30 PM.

May 30, 2015, 01:00 PM	#23
P-990 Senior Member Join Date: May 2, 2002 Location: Only1/2WayThere Posts: 1,316	I understand it's not a legal option for Indiana hunting, but I used to have a 20" .45-70 Encore Katahdin (and a 50-caliber muzzleloader barrel in the same configuration). It earned the nickname "The Punisher". Six-pound fixed-breech carbine, 300-grain slugs at 1900-fps, you can figure the rest. A standard 1-oz 12-gauge slug in just about any conventional set-up is a put-tee cat in comparison. In fact, 100-grains of Triple Seven or Pyrodex throwing 250-grain sabots in the .50-caliber barrel were far more comfortable to shoot. (I offer this comparison as the .460 and .500 S&W are definitely in the same power-class as the .45-70 in a carbine.) __________________ NRA Master, Highpower Rifle, Across-the-Course NRA Expert, Highpower Rifle, Mid-Range Prone

May 30, 2015, 10:31 PM	#24
johnwilliamson062 Junior member Join Date: May 16, 2008 Posts: 9,995	Like the 460, the 45-70 offers a large range of power out of an Encore. Well, that is what I hear. I just received my barrel this week. I am planning to use a weighted Encore though. Not sure if I will permanently add lead to cutouts in the stock or find a way to add detachable bags, but I plan to add a few pounds. 45-70 outside the Indiana length restrictions?

June 1, 2015, 02:06 PM	#25
Skeets Member in memoriam Join Date: April 6, 2015 Location: Indiana Posts: 583	Ask First!! One more BIG thank-you to TFL for your thoughtful and eye-opening replies.Thanks guys! __________________ Skeets "Over Kill Never Fails"