Question on searching: Canada border - Page 2

Scouse · April 28, 2013, 05:10 PM

Rifleman1776 - you are incorrect. In legal terms, I as a British person am not a "subject", nor are Canadians ("Subject" as a legal term only applies to a small and rapidly dwindling group of people for historical reasons).

They are Citizens of Canada, a mature, stable, parliamentary democracy, not some repressive banana republic. The fact that there are different laws and social mores about a few things does not make it some sort of communist police state. People are not "owned by the government".

**tyme** · April 28, 2013, 07:06 PM

Within the 9th circuit, on the U.S. side, as of March 2013 there are some limits to how extensive a search can be of electronic devices.

https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/0...earches-border

I think there should be no border searches of electronic devices, because information should not be subject to border control. In a state with totalitarian restrictions on information, a bad actor can simply put the data on the internet somewhere and access it once inside the target country. Conducting digital forensics searches of someone's phone, laptop, etc. is stupid. It might theoretically catch a terrorist who is stupid enough to keep terror plans unencrypted on such a device, but it is unlikely to catch anyone in practice.

Mausermolt · April 28, 2013, 08:07 PM

An friend and I ferried a helicopter from Pasco, Washington up to Anchorage about a year ago, our first stop in Canada was in Kelowna. now this helicopter we picked up from another pilot that had started this journey in Arizona where the helicopter was originally based. the other pilot had some recurrent training he had to do so he couldnt finish the flight. we were only supposed to finish the ferry and the other pilot was to continue the heli-skiing operation once the heli got up to Alaska.

of course there is some paperwork involved with crossing an international border with an aircraft where you declare who is on the aircraft and the cargo carried ect. we landed the helicopter, with customs waiting.

they were asking us the normal questions : who does the helicopter belong to. how do you know each other. yadda yadda yadda.

what this other pilot forgot to mention was he left a bunch of cloths and a snowboard in the cargo space of the heli (we figured it was survival gear/parts that went with the helicopter because thats what the back seat was full of). so when customs asked us what was in the bags we said "it must belonged to the other pilot".

they got their feathers all ruffled up and started asking more questions about this "other pilot"

after completely unloading everything in the friggin helicopter spreading it all over the ground and making a complete mess they let us go on to our hotel for the night.

Never once did they act rude to us, they were suspicious (reasonably so) about the "other pilots bags" but they didnt accuse us of smuggling anything. heck even our cab driver to our hotel was very pleasant (but he did look like a hobo

).

I dont have a problem with Canada. I have a couple of Canadian friends and really enjoyed every second of the flight through it. Isnt it a stereotype that all Canadians are apologetic and nice? I have found it pleasantly true

csmsss · April 29, 2013, 12:17 PM

MM, glad you had a pleasant experience with crossing the border. But it must be pointed out that the folks you dealt with are probably nothing like the folks positioned on the actual border stations that motorists must transit.

btmj · April 29, 2013, 01:21 PM

I feel I must comment on the behavior and attitude of some US Customs and Immigration officers. I travel internationally on a regular basis, and I have witnessed many visitors to the US coming through airport passport control, customs, and immigration. Often the US agents are polite and professional... sometimes they are not.

The most outrageous example I witnessed I arrived in Chicago O'Hare on a flight from Japan. About half the flight was US citizens returning from somewhere in Asia, and about half the flight was foreign visitors from various parts of Asia. This was the day before Thanksgiving, and the airport was mobbed with people.

This was a few years after 9-11 and the airports were still a mess... there were all these new security procedures, but the airports had not yet been re-designed to accommodate the procedures. So there were long lines everywhere and in many cases the lines stretched around corners and into walkways.

I saw visitors to the US whose first encounter with our government was a man in a uniform screaming at him and his family because they were in the wrong line. No one in the family spoke English, which seemed to infuriate the officer even more. There were two other officers who were yelling at everyone else in line also. I was yelled at because I had a US passport and thus I was in the wrong line. I could not understand where I was supposed to go, or which line I was supposed to be in, and I fly through the international terminal at O’Hare fairly often. These people from India, Korea, and Japan were obviously confused, and having an "armed guard" shouting orders in a language they did not understand, only made the situation worse.

I was embarrassed and angry. It was like Chicago O'Hare was welcoming these visitors with the Attitude of "Welcome to America A-hole, now get in the right F-ing line and shut your face"... nice.

So while I have no doubt that the Canadian border authorities can be very rude to people on occasion, I know the US immigration and customs officials can compete very well in the rudeness game. On that day, they took home the gold medal

Tangentabacus · April 30, 2013, 02:54 AM

I've seen this too. I've traveled quite a bit between Asia and here and the American immigrants people have been rude but I've never seen them be unprofessional necessarily.

I'm ashamed to admit that I probably am pointing fingers at an agency that does as much wrong as ours.

April 28, 2013, 07:06 PM	#27
tyme Staff Join Date: October 13, 2001 Posts: 3,355	Within the 9th circuit, on the U.S. side, as of March 2013 there are some limits to how extensive a search can be of electronic devices. https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/0...earches-border I think there should be no border searches of electronic devices, because information should not be subject to border control. In a state with totalitarian restrictions on information, a bad actor can simply put the data on the internet somewhere and access it once inside the target country. Conducting digital forensics searches of someone's phone, laptop, etc. is stupid. It might theoretically catch a terrorist who is stupid enough to keep terror plans unencrypted on such a device, but it is unlikely to catch anyone in practice. __________________ “The egg hatched...” “...the egg hatched... and a hundred baby spiders came out...” (blade runner) “Who are you?” “A friend. I'm here to prevent you from making a mistake.” “You have no idea what I'm doing here, friend.” “In specific terms, no, but I swore an oath to protect the world...” (continuum) “It's a goal you won't understand until later. Your job is to make sure he doesn't achieve the goal.” (bsg)

April 28, 2013, 08:07 PM	#28
Mausermolt Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2007 Location: Ory-gun Posts: 508	An friend and I ferried a helicopter from Pasco, Washington up to Anchorage about a year ago, our first stop in Canada was in Kelowna. now this helicopter we picked up from another pilot that had started this journey in Arizona where the helicopter was originally based. the other pilot had some recurrent training he had to do so he couldnt finish the flight. we were only supposed to finish the ferry and the other pilot was to continue the heli-skiing operation once the heli got up to Alaska. of course there is some paperwork involved with crossing an international border with an aircraft where you declare who is on the aircraft and the cargo carried ect. we landed the helicopter, with customs waiting. they were asking us the normal questions : who does the helicopter belong to. how do you know each other. yadda yadda yadda. what this other pilot forgot to mention was he left a bunch of cloths and a snowboard in the cargo space of the heli (we figured it was survival gear/parts that went with the helicopter because thats what the back seat was full of). so when customs asked us what was in the bags we said "it must belonged to the other pilot". they got their feathers all ruffled up and started asking more questions about this "other pilot" after completely unloading everything in the friggin helicopter spreading it all over the ground and making a complete mess they let us go on to our hotel for the night. Never once did they act rude to us, they were suspicious (reasonably so) about the "other pilots bags" but they didnt accuse us of smuggling anything. heck even our cab driver to our hotel was very pleasant (but he did look like a hobo ). I dont have a problem with Canada. I have a couple of Canadian friends and really enjoyed every second of the flight through it. Isnt it a stereotype that all Canadians are apologetic and nice? I have found it pleasantly true __________________ Molon Labe

April 28, 2013, 05:10 PM	#26
Scouse Senior Member Join Date: June 9, 2011 Posts: 133	Rifleman1776 - you are incorrect. In legal terms, I as a British person am not a "subject", nor are Canadians ("Subject" as a legal term only applies to a small and rapidly dwindling group of people for historical reasons). They are Citizens of Canada, a mature, stable, parliamentary democracy, not some repressive banana republic. The fact that there are different laws and social mores about a few things does not make it some sort of communist police state. People are not "owned by the government".

April 29, 2013, 12:17 PM	#29
csmsss Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Orange, TX Posts: 3,078	MM, glad you had a pleasant experience with crossing the border. But it must be pointed out that the folks you dealt with are probably nothing like the folks positioned on the actual border stations that motorists must transit.

April 29, 2013, 01:21 PM	#30
btmj Senior Member Join Date: November 1, 2011 Location: Near St. Louis, Missouri Posts: 864	I feel I must comment on the behavior and attitude of some US Customs and Immigration officers. I travel internationally on a regular basis, and I have witnessed many visitors to the US coming through airport passport control, customs, and immigration. Often the US agents are polite and professional... sometimes they are not. The most outrageous example I witnessed I arrived in Chicago O'Hare on a flight from Japan. About half the flight was US citizens returning from somewhere in Asia, and about half the flight was foreign visitors from various parts of Asia. This was the day before Thanksgiving, and the airport was mobbed with people. This was a few years after 9-11 and the airports were still a mess... there were all these new security procedures, but the airports had not yet been re-designed to accommodate the procedures. So there were long lines everywhere and in many cases the lines stretched around corners and into walkways. I saw visitors to the US whose first encounter with our government was a man in a uniform screaming at him and his family because they were in the wrong line. No one in the family spoke English, which seemed to infuriate the officer even more. There were two other officers who were yelling at everyone else in line also. I was yelled at because I had a US passport and thus I was in the wrong line. I could not understand where I was supposed to go, or which line I was supposed to be in, and I fly through the international terminal at O’Hare fairly often. These people from India, Korea, and Japan were obviously confused, and having an "armed guard" shouting orders in a language they did not understand, only made the situation worse. I was embarrassed and angry. It was like Chicago O'Hare was welcoming these visitors with the Attitude of "Welcome to America A-hole, now get in the right F-ing line and shut your face"... nice. So while I have no doubt that the Canadian border authorities can be very rude to people on occasion, I know the US immigration and customs officials can compete very well in the rudeness game. On that day, they took home the gold medal

April 30, 2013, 02:54 AM	#31
Tangentabacus Senior Member Join Date: April 15, 2010 Location: Alaska Posts: 276	I've seen this too. I've traveled quite a bit between Asia and here and the American immigrants people have been rude but I've never seen them be unprofessional necessarily. I'm ashamed to admit that I probably am pointing fingers at an agency that does as much wrong as ours.