Mountain gun... for hunting.

[RaySendero]

March 1, 2011 04:03 PM Wrothgar wrote:

Rock'n'roll, thanks everybody! Too bad that .338 MX at Buds sold over the weekend :-(.

Wrothgar,

Since you like level actions - How about these Browning BLRs. Lightweight and it even comes in a lot of good common cartridges.


http://www.browning.com/products/cat...ent=BLR-Rifles

[mbb300]

thanks gamehog. i think i might just have to check it out

[Big Bill]

I've taken my Winchester (pre-64) 94 into the deep woods of central Idaho for elk and have never felt under gunned. My cousin even killed a nice black bear with his. That 30-30 was plenty of gun for the elk we have here.

[cookhj]

i would look at a lightweight rifle like a remington model 7 in 7mm-08, .260, or .308.

[ripnbst]

He mentioned bear guys/gals. Since he didn't specify species I'll assume the worst. .260 really? I wouldn't feel comfortable taking on a grizzly bent on taking my life with a .260. Personal .300 WIN MAG minimum here.

When hunting elk penetration is king.

A .270 WIN with bonded ammo will do the trick. So will .30-06. High Penetration is what is important, in any caliber for elk hunting. As for the OP's question. I'd buy a .45-70 and never look back. Guides and fisherman and hunters living in Mountainous regions swear by it. The round is popular enough you'll never have to worry about it becoming unavailable and you can readily buy it at your local gun shop, Walmart(Ok maybe not Walmart), bass pro, etc.

People seem to favor the Marlin Guide Gun in stainless too for all the weather changes dependent on elevation on a given day and the variable weather in the mountains.

[HiBC]

I have lived in Colorado since 1966.Seems like I might have heard of a possible grizzly bowhunter confrontation in southern Co,maybe around Salida,20 yers ago,or so.
In any case,I suspect I have more than enough toes to count the grizzlies in Co.I think officially,there are none.I did no research,thats just opinion.I do not think a Colorado hunter needs to be prepared for great bears.This is not AK.
Not knocking the 300 mags,if you are a fan,fine.Same with the 45-70.
What works is placing the shot with an appropriate bullet.
A rifle that causes the shooter to cringe and squint while they are squeezing the trigger is not so good for placing a shot.A rifle that is dropping 8 inches over 30 yards is going to place real challenges on the shooter,too.
A lot of folks take elk with a .243.Its not what I would recommend,but it gets done.
If you can shoot precisely,get within reasonable range,have the self dicipline to not shoot till you have a shot,use an appropriate bullet,and know some anatomy of your game so you know where to shoot,golly,there are a lot of good cartridges!Up to elk,.260,6.5x55,7x57,.270,7mm express,7-08,300 Savage,30-40 Krag,.303 British,30-06,.308,8x57,and many more.
They are gun enough if you are shooter/hunter enough.If you are not shooter/hunter enough,a .340 Weatherby won't fix it.

[hooligan1]

I really like the .270 win, for and all purpose caliber. But if I ever get the chance for a once in a lifetime hunt for the larger deer species out west, I bring my 7mm rem mag, to "get-er-done"

[rodwhaincamo]

I would suggest a rifle with some range as others have said. 270 Win, 7mm-08 Rem, 280 Rem, 308 Win, 30-06 Spr, 338 Fed, 358 Win, and 35 Whelen are all good nonmagnums. Magnums aren't neccesary.
A rule of thumb I recall from long ago: 1500 ft/lbs+ for elk.
Another option would be to Ackley Improve your chamber, which gives an additional 100-200 fps, and get into reloading so as to utilize boattails to increase the range. You wouldn't be able to have loaded more than 1 cartridge in the tube.

[rodwhaincamo]

Your 7x57mm Mau ought to do just fine.

[Wrothgar]

Howdy folks!


Soooooo... I never actually bought the rifle. But I'm doing it now! It took me a while to get my tax return, so now's the time. I've got a question;

How about the .308 round? Since it's a military round, it will always be around? I feel like the farthest shot I'll be willing to make is around 200 yards. If that's the case, would the .30-30 work?

[JerryM]

The 30-30 is not the gun for sheep and goats due to the likely ranges at which you might have to shoot. Consider the difficulty in getting a tag, and if you do you will want a longer range rifle.
For your use at least something on a .308 case is needed. I am not sure what is available in a lever action, but think Browning makes something comparable in its lever action. Others here are more up to date.

Considering the scarcity of game, difficulty in obtaining tags, and ranges you might have to shoot, the 30-30 will not do the job if you are going to do much hunting.

Regards,
Jerry

[JACK308]

marlin 1895 in 45/70 loaded with garrets hammerheads and a 44 mag as back up. You wont have no problem killing any animals with that.

[doofus47]

30-30 will do fine if you plan on getting to a reasonable range.

I use a 30-06 ted williams. My friend with a Howa .270 seems to do just as well after toting his up and down hill all day.

Good luck pulling a big horn or mountain goat tag...

[Alaska444]

My woods gun is a Marlin .444 by choice. I didn't want to go to the recoil of a 45-70, but I wanted a hard hitting hard cast bullet in large bore. The .444 fits that bill well. It out performs the .338 Marlin Express ballistically in essentially the same package. Great gun for hunting and for bear defense. Shot placement is the key to both.

Take a look at a review of Buffalo Bore 335 gr heavy .444 ammo dropping a large BUFFALO at 90 yards:

Reviewer: William Wallace
02/15/2010 09:29pm
Tim....

Wanted to let you know that the ammunition worked perfectly. Dropped a trophy Bison in its tracks from approximately 90 yards.

Heart/lungs from 90 yards. Hit him broadside. Big buffalo with a full winter coat. I've attached a picture. Bullet stayed inside the body and was recovered. I've made sure that Buffalo Bore has been represented on several of the boards that I checked in with.....many opinions about a Marlin 444 and its ability to take down a Bison. Bottom line....with the Marlin, Bushnell Banner Scope, and Buffalo Bore 335 grain bullets.....there is no argument in my mind.

A member of our party jammed his rifle and used my Marlin.....killed a deer with the same 335 load from 175 yards. Distance, accuracy, and stopping power.

Thanks!
William W.

http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php...t_detail&p=156

I tamed my recoil with a Limb Saver covered once over by a Kick Killer leather cover/pad. In addition, since my spot and stalk days in the woods are a thing of the past, I added about 1.5 pounds of lead and it feels like a 20 ga as far as recoil with a 9 pound weight. I know that is heavier than most folks want to carry, but the weight doesn't bother me, while the recoil does with my medical condition.

You can get Buffalo Bore ammo such as the one above and you are set for anything in the North American woods. You can't really say that about the .338 Express which is a CXP2 rifle and not for large bear which you can come across in CO.

If you are looking for something for longer range, consider the Browning BLR which comes in several calibers. I have the BLR in 300 WSM which gives you about 3500 ft-pds of muzzle energy. That is my elk rifle, my .444 is my woods gun.

[Daryl]

The venerable 30-30 has killed a lot of elk and deer. There's no reason why it shouldn't continue to do so, and I'm sure it will. I've seen a number of grizzled old-timers who hunted with nothing else, and they got their critters more often than many I know who carry magnum rifles.

That all said, if you want a new rifle, there's no reason not to get one. These days, a flat shooting cartridge can extend your effective range, whick can also increase your success. Lightweight "mountain rifles" are fairly numerous, so spend to time at a reputable dealer and see what you like best.

I love leverguns, but when I get "serious" about taking meat home I usually take a relatively lightweight bolt action with a 'scope sight. Something in 7mm 08, 7mm mag, .308, or 30-06 will serve your needs for such things very well.

Good luck, and maybe one o' these days I'll see you up on a Colorado mountain.

Daryl

[VeryOldDog]

In 2006, I won an elk hunt in a raffle guided by the Mescalero Apaches on their reservation in Northern New Mexico. I used a Ruger Super Redhawk chambered in 480 from 50 yards with a Burris 4x pistol scope mounted. The bull fell in one shot. The amunition used was hard cast from Buffalo Bore. The Guides carried my Manlicher Steyr chambered in 30-06 as a backup. Being an old Recon Marine, I wanted to stalk the game and get as close as I could. I was 64 years old then and I did pretty good walking them hills. I can't do that anymore. That was my last hurrah.

If you "hunt", you may get as close as possible and use your current rifle and that may be part of the hunt you expect. Or, as many have articulated go for a common rifle round that can easily be purchased whereever you may be located. For very long distances, the 06, and the 308 do very well and there is plenty of bullet selection for your hunt. I personally have been interested in the 375, but I cannot make those hunts anymore. Whatever you decide, make sure that you can find the caliber you want in substantial variety no matter where you may be hunting.

[Daekar]

Wrothgar,

Just taking a quick gander at the figures for Hornady Leverevolution ammo, the 338 is quite a bit flatter shooting an maintains about 1400 ft*lbs. out to 500 yards, but the bullet drop at that range is almost 4.5 feet. That's more than enough energy if you hit them in the right place. If you can compensate for bullet drop, I bet the bullet would do its part at that extreme range. At 200 yards, the bullet drop is negligible and it stays above 2000 ft*lbs, which should ruin anything's day.

The two larger calibers are extremely similar, and vary in the ways you'd expect. The 444 is a bit flatter shooting, but the 450 maintains energy a bit better since the bullet is heavier. Honestly, neither you nor the animal will know the difference at 200 yards. After that, the bullets of both start to bleed energy quickly, and the bullet drop is substantial. Hornady didn't even bother providing figures beyond 300 yards, where drop was around 20 inches for both, and energy had fallen to 1100-1200 ft*lbs, less than the 338 at 500 yards.

Based on the numbers and neglecting recoil in your decision, it really depends on how far away you're going to be shooting. If you're like me and won't really be taking shots beyond 200 yards, any of them will do - I would pick the 444 or 450 for that because I like big bullets, but that's more personal preference, dead is dead. Outside 200 yards, the 338 really begins to beat the snot out of the other two. If you want a rifle that will do it all, get the 338.

EDIT: As others have noted, the 30-30 will do the job just as well, but you need to be a bit closer. Just because the cartridge is old doesn't mean it's any less capable than the old days!

[Wrothgar]

So... for an elk... what would you all say is the range for a .30-30? 150 yards? 200? I ask because, again, I don't feel comfortable past 200. Also, if you ARE making a 150-200 yard shot with a .30-30, are you having to account for much drop? I, uh, don't really feel comfortable accounting much for drop... So, I need something that is flat shooting... but ONLY within 200 yards. I could care less what happens after that :-). I can't really practice anything past 100, as that is as far as my local range goes.

[fatwhiteboy]

Seems to me that an old guy named Elmer Keith had some positive things to say about the .270 Win. Mine is a Winchester Model 70. Light, flat shooting, easy recoil, ammo is available every where...

[Alaska444]

One of my friends here in Idaho grew up ranching and hunting since he was just a little boy. He prefers the .270 as his elk rifle. Some folks tell him it is too small, but he has killed dozens of elk and dozens of bear with this rifle. He happens to be a crack shot so that helps. My eyes are getting too old for me to handle anything much beyond 100 yards. The .270 in the right hands is essentially the same as a 30-06 but flatter shooting. My friend uses 130 grain silvertip bullets which he has likewise been told is too small, but who can argue with his success.

[Wrothgar]

Great! So, .270, noted.

If I WERE to go with a .30-30, using the Leverevolution cartridges, if I was going for a 200 yard shot, I would use the lightest bullet, correct?

[Alaska444]

Just a bit of a follow up, my friend up here in Idaho went with the .270 in part from Jack O'Connor who was a friend of his father. The 130 grain silvertip is also by Jack's advice. Here is a bit of the story from his website bio:

The .270 Winchester became one of the most popular big game cartridges due to Jack’s promotion of it as an effective caliber for the average hunter; sheep hunting and sheep conservation became more visible to the average sportsman resulting in an awareness of habitat requirements that led to the establishment of the Foundation for North American Wild Sheep, the first of several species-specific similar conservation organizations; and sportsmen were much more aware of the importance of ethical hunting standards and professional game management to the continuance of their sport.

http://www.jack-oconnor.org/biography.html

[Art Eatman]

Wrothgar, odds are that penetration is more important than trajectory: IF you learn the trajectory and know the distance. Were I planning to use a .30-30 for elk, I'd go with whichever Leverlution is heaviest.

Just guessing, I'd likely sight in for about three inches high at 100, expecting to be about dead on at 150-ish and maybe three to four inches low at 200. Given the size of the kill zone of an elk, point of aim should be easy to quickly figure out if you have any time at all before needing to shoot. The deal is to get as close as possible to "point it and pull".

[mapsjanhere]

My BLR in 450 is a great gun for brush, but not what I would use as mountain gun on elk. Mountain hunt to me means lots of walking and long shots. Unless you have a range finder (or the budget for it) the 450 will become a guessing game past 150 yards. I took my elk this spring with a single shot 7x65R, it shot flat enough to hit even after I missed the first word of the guide mumbling two hundred twenty while looking through the range finder. An elk is a big animal, at 8x I wasn't thinking I was aiming at a small target even at that range.
They do make the BLR in 300 WSM what would make a great lever long range option; it's on my list but budget limited until next year.

[JerryM]

If you get a chance to take your game at ranges of 200-300 yards you will rue the day your took advice to go with the 30-30. Elk have been killed with about everything, but that does not make everything adequate. In addition, if you were to draw out on a sheep or goat you need a gun that will make long range shots.
With a .270 sighted in for 3" high at 100 yards you can make shots out to 400 yards on such animals if you learn to shoot and the trajectory of your cartridge. A .270 will not require holdover out to 300 yards, and only about 10" at 400 yards. A .308 is not so flat, but not too much different with the right loads.

Considering the short seasons, difficulty of obtaining permits. scarcity of game, and number of hunters if you are serious about hunting in the West get a rifle that will have the power and trajectory for the conditions. A .308 will do the job.

FWIW I do not consider myself the greatest expert or even an expert, but I have hunted in Alaska (3.5 years), the SE, and for many years in the West. I would not even consider a 30-30.
Hunting is rather expensive, so don't skimp on the rifle, scope or binoculars. Game is sometimes scarce, and when an opportunity presents itself, you want to be ready to take advantage.

Learn the trajectory of your load, practice shooting from field positions, and learn to judge range. You may not have time to get the rangefinder, and bipod.
I also must say with Jack O'Connor that you carry a rifle more than you shoot it. That dictates a reasonably light rifle. Personally today with the choices I would not go for a rig that weighed more that 7 -7.5 lbs, with scope, loaded and with sling.

Best,
Jerry