Forming 6.5x50 brass from .25-35 Winchester

zbones6 · December 23, 2012, 04:45 PM

Hey guys, I've never reloaded and i dont have the gear, but my uncle gave me a Type 38 Arisaka chambered in 6.5x50. Not only is this cartridge very rare, but when i can find it, very expensive. I have an old box of .25-35 Winchester, and one day while cleaning the bolt assembly of the Arisaka, i found that the .25-35 brass fits in the chamber of the rifle, and the bullets are not much smaller than the 6.5 bore size. I was wondering if i could form the 6.5 brass from the .25-35 Winchester. Thanks in advance!

Sport45 · December 23, 2012, 09:19 PM

I think the base will be much too small for that.

I'd wait until Graf's has the PRVI brass back in stock.

Romeo 33 Delta · December 23, 2012, 10:39 PM

I second Sport45. Unless you need it RIGHT THIS MINUTE ... wait. You might consider Buffalo Arms. They handle some factory brass, but EXCEL at reforming. I've been a customer of theirs for ... well, Dave Gullo, the founder was working out of his kitchen back then ... what, 20+ years now (maybe 30 even). Some brass is "pricey" according to some people's thinking ... 6.5 Jap runs about $1.50/case for 50 pieces, but if you're not ham-handed as a reloader and wreck it you can look forward to 10+ reloadings per case.

Ralph Allen · December 23, 2012, 11:37 PM

zbones6,
Check the numbers on the reciever and bolt if there are any. Type 38 6.5X50 Jap was notorious for mismatched bolts which lead to excessive headspace.
Ralph

Sport45 · December 23, 2012, 11:48 PM

And a lot of them were rechambered to 6.5x.257 Roberts. If you don't know whether or not this gun has been worked on it might be worth having a chamber cast made.

bull bob · December 24, 2012, 10:43 AM

Biggest problem you have would be the rims. 25-35 WCF is a rimmed cartridge, .50-.503 rim diameter, same as a 30-30. 6.5 Arisaka specs show .470-.473 diameter. Big difference. The 25-35 is the equivalent of the European 6.5x52R, a totally different cartridge. Might be easier to wait until you can find proper brass or a better cartridge to convert from, like maybe 257Roberts??

zbones6 · December 24, 2012, 01:00 PM

Hey guys just an update, the bolt and receiver numbers match, and it is in fact chambered in 6.5x50. As a side note, i can cycle the .25-35 in the rifle quite easily. Of course i can buy the loaded rounds and save the brass until i get a press, i was just wondering if i could do it. It almost looks like the .25-35 would fireform nicely to the chamber. The rim fits the bolt head and extractor almost like a glove.

**Mike Irwin** · December 24, 2012, 01:05 PM

No. EMPHATIC NO.

The base diameter on the .25-35/.30-30/.32 Winchester family of cartridges is .422.

The base diameter on the 6.5x50 Arisaka is .447.

That is simply FAR too much.

You might get away with fireforming the case to the chamber, but if you tried loading a 6.5mm bullet and a standard powder charge you'd likely have a case head failure and have a VERY bad moment.

zbones6 · December 24, 2012, 01:13 PM

Sounds good. So, what kind of brass would you suggest i use if i opt not to buy factory ammo? .30-30 perhaps? Ive heard of people reforming .308 brass, but the head looks waaaay too small.

zbones6 · December 24, 2012, 01:28 PM

Oh, and im not sure where you got your info, and im not insulting your knowledge, but according to my micrometer, the case head measures in at .492 inches. And the inside of the bolt head measures .493

Sport45 · December 24, 2012, 09:00 PM

Mike is talking about the base diameter. I think you are measuring the rim.

6.5jap is semi-rimmed and the base is almost the same diameter as the rim. A .25-35 would have to do a lot of expanding above the web to fill a 6.5x50 chamber. As Mike said, it would likely blow out.

Jimro · December 24, 2012, 10:44 PM

I've seen what happened when a guy fired 30-30 through a 308 Win chamber.

So as has been mentioned, do not use 25-35 brass.

Jimro

GTOne · December 25, 2012, 12:44 AM

My handloaders manual of cartridge conversions states starting from .270 Win brass:

Swage base to .447
Size in 6.5 Jap die with expander removed
Trim to length
I.D. Neck ream
FL size
Chamfer

Word for word out of the book. fwiw *shrug*

**Mike Irwin** · December 25, 2012, 12:54 AM

Yep, you're measuring the rim diameter, not the case head diameter. The case head is the part just ahead of the rim, above the extractor groove.

Jimro · December 25, 2012, 02:55 PM

If 270 brass works, 308 brass might work better. Swage the base, full length size, trim.

Depending on the chamber you might not need to swage, a lot of milspec chambers from that era were "generous" on body diameter even when they were tight on headspace (I have a Swede M38 with an oversized body diameter, seems to be relatively common).

Jimro

Romeo 33 Delta · December 25, 2012, 04:38 PM

I hate to beat a dead horse, but just contact BUFFALO ARMS. I've formed and reformed more calibers than I care to think of and have learned that if I can pay a little more and have someone who's set up to do the job correctly, it really saves a ton of work and aggravation too. I restrict myself to reforming for calibers that are otherwise not available. You're looking at $1.50 a case when ordering 50 pieces.

m&p45acp10+1 · December 25, 2012, 04:40 PM

Jimro .270 is not formed from the .308 Winchester cartridge. It is from the .30-'06 Springfield cartridge. The .270 is already necked down enough to go into the 6.5 mm die without having to be run through a reforming die first. If you were using the .30-'06 then you would have to neck it down through a reforming die to shrink it a bit at a time first.

Note if you are reforming brass by necking it down you will get a few lube dents in the shoulder. They will pop out with fire forming loads.

It is a bit of work though it can be done. It just depends on if it worth the time, and effort to for you. It is much easier to save brass from factory ammo, and just reload it.

Note I do reform a couple of rounds. One it is the only way to do it. There were fewer than 20 thousand rounds of loaded factory ammo made for it. The barrel kit for the gun came with a 2 die sets. One for forming, and trimming. The other for loading.

Jimro · December 25, 2012, 06:37 PM

m&p45acp10+1,

I had a long snarky comment in mind, but it is Christmas so I'll play nice.

Just google "6.5x50 formed from 308 Win" and you'll see that it is a relatively easy conversion. The reason I recommended it is that the metric version of the 308 is also known as 7.62x51, which means that there would be much less trimming than using a 270 Win, which is about 64mm in length.

And you are wrong about the 270 Win parent cartridge, the 270 Win is based on the 30-03 version, with the longer neck.

Remember, when dealing with metric calibers, the first number is the bore diameter, the second number is the cartridge length.

Merry Christmas.

Jimro

sc928porsche · December 25, 2012, 10:55 PM

Hornady makes loaded ammo for it (140 gr) for 20 bucks a box. Thats a dollar each and after fired, you can reload it.

m&p45acp10+1 · December 26, 2012, 03:21 PM

Well I learn something new every day Jimro.

I reform .221 Rem Fireball from .223 Rem brass.

I also reform .357 Wildey Magnum from .475 Wildey Magnum brass. It takes a forming die, then the trim die. Then sizing. The .475 brass is neither cheap, or easy to come by that I have found. Though the gun is a real hoot to light off.

December 23, 2012, 04:45 PM	#1
zbones6 Member Join Date: December 29, 2011 Posts: 91	Forming 6.5x50 brass from .25-35 Winchester Hey guys, I've never reloaded and i dont have the gear, but my uncle gave me a Type 38 Arisaka chambered in 6.5x50. Not only is this cartridge very rare, but when i can find it, very expensive. I have an old box of .25-35 Winchester, and one day while cleaning the bolt assembly of the Arisaka, i found that the .25-35 brass fits in the chamber of the rifle, and the bullets are not much smaller than the 6.5 bore size. I was wondering if i could form the 6.5 brass from the .25-35 Winchester. Thanks in advance!

December 23, 2012, 09:19 PM	#2
Sport45 Senior Member Join Date: May 25, 1999 Location: Too close to Houston Posts: 4,196	I think the base will be much too small for that. I'd wait until Graf's has the PRVI brass back in stock. __________________ Proud member of the NRA and Texas State Rifle Association. Registered and active voter. Last edited by Sport45; December 23, 2012 at 11:38 PM. Reason: spelling

December 23, 2012, 11:48 PM	#5
Sport45 Senior Member Join Date: May 25, 1999 Location: Too close to Houston Posts: 4,196	And a lot of them were rechambered to 6.5x.257 Roberts. If you don't know whether or not this gun has been worked on it might be worth having a chamber cast made. __________________ Proud member of the NRA and Texas State Rifle Association. Registered and active voter.

December 24, 2012, 01:05 PM	#8
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	No. EMPHATIC NO. The base diameter on the .25-35/.30-30/.32 Winchester family of cartridges is .422. The base diameter on the 6.5x50 Arisaka is .447. That is simply FAR too much. You might get away with fireforming the case to the chamber, but if you tried loading a 6.5mm bullet and a standard powder charge you'd likely have a case head failure and have a VERY bad moment. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

December 24, 2012, 09:00 PM	#11
Sport45 Senior Member Join Date: May 25, 1999 Location: Too close to Houston Posts: 4,196	Mike is talking about the base diameter. I think you are measuring the rim. 6.5jap is semi-rimmed and the base is almost the same diameter as the rim. A .25-35 would have to do a lot of expanding above the web to fill a 6.5x50 chamber. As Mike said, it would likely blow out. __________________ Proud member of the NRA and Texas State Rifle Association. Registered and active voter.

December 23, 2012, 10:39 PM	#3
Romeo 33 Delta Senior Member Join Date: March 27, 2009 Posts: 315	I second Sport45. Unless you need it RIGHT THIS MINUTE ... wait. You might consider Buffalo Arms. They handle some factory brass, but EXCEL at reforming. I've been a customer of theirs for ... well, Dave Gullo, the founder was working out of his kitchen back then ... what, 20+ years now (maybe 30 even). Some brass is "pricey" according to some people's thinking ... 6.5 Jap runs about $1.50/case for 50 pieces, but if you're not ham-handed as a reloader and wreck it you can look forward to 10+ reloadings per case.

December 23, 2012, 11:37 PM	#4
Ralph Allen Senior Member Join Date: January 21, 2007 Posts: 436	zbones6, Check the numbers on the reciever and bolt if there are any. Type 38 6.5X50 Jap was notorious for mismatched bolts which lead to excessive headspace. Ralph

December 24, 2012, 10:43 AM	#6
bull bob Senior Member Join Date: October 29, 2010 Location: Michigan Posts: 114	Biggest problem you have would be the rims. 25-35 WCF is a rimmed cartridge, .50-.503 rim diameter, same as a 30-30. 6.5 Arisaka specs show .470-.473 diameter. Big difference. The 25-35 is the equivalent of the European 6.5x52R, a totally different cartridge. Might be easier to wait until you can find proper brass or a better cartridge to convert from, like maybe 257Roberts??

December 24, 2012, 01:13 PM	#9
zbones6 Member Join Date: December 29, 2011 Posts: 91	Sounds good. So, what kind of brass would you suggest i use if i opt not to buy factory ammo? .30-30 perhaps? Ive heard of people reforming .308 brass, but the head looks waaaay too small.

December 24, 2012, 01:28 PM	#10
zbones6 Member Join Date: December 29, 2011 Posts: 91	Oh, and im not sure where you got your info, and im not insulting your knowledge, but according to my micrometer, the case head measures in at .492 inches. And the inside of the bolt head measures .493

December 24, 2012, 10:44 PM	#12
Jimro Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2006 Posts: 7,097	I've seen what happened when a guy fired 30-30 through a 308 Win chamber. So as has been mentioned, do not use 25-35 brass. Jimro __________________ Machine guns are awesome until you have to carry one.

December 25, 2012, 12:44 AM	#13
GTOne Senior Member Join Date: December 28, 2011 Location: IL Posts: 210	My handloaders manual of cartridge conversions states starting from .270 Win brass: Swage base to .447 Size in 6.5 Jap die with expander removed Trim to length I.D. Neck ream FL size Chamfer Word for word out of the book. fwiw shrug

December 25, 2012, 12:54 AM	#14
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	Yep, you're measuring the rim diameter, not the case head diameter. The case head is the part just ahead of the rim, above the extractor groove. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

December 25, 2012, 02:55 PM	#15
Jimro Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2006 Posts: 7,097	If 270 brass works, 308 brass might work better. Swage the base, full length size, trim. Depending on the chamber you might not need to swage, a lot of milspec chambers from that era were "generous" on body diameter even when they were tight on headspace (I have a Swede M38 with an oversized body diameter, seems to be relatively common). Jimro __________________ Machine guns are awesome until you have to carry one.

December 25, 2012, 04:38 PM	#16
Romeo 33 Delta Senior Member Join Date: March 27, 2009 Posts: 315	I hate to beat a dead horse, but just contact BUFFALO ARMS. I've formed and reformed more calibers than I care to think of and have learned that if I can pay a little more and have someone who's set up to do the job correctly, it really saves a ton of work and aggravation too. I restrict myself to reforming for calibers that are otherwise not available. You're looking at $1.50 a case when ordering 50 pieces.

December 25, 2012, 04:40 PM	#17
m&p45acp10+1 Senior Member Join Date: May 3, 2009 Location: Central Texas Posts: 3,930	Jimro .270 is not formed from the .308 Winchester cartridge. It is from the .30-'06 Springfield cartridge. The .270 is already necked down enough to go into the 6.5 mm die without having to be run through a reforming die first. If you were using the .30-'06 then you would have to neck it down through a reforming die to shrink it a bit at a time first. Note if you are reforming brass by necking it down you will get a few lube dents in the shoulder. They will pop out with fire forming loads. It is a bit of work though it can be done. It just depends on if it worth the time, and effort to for you. It is much easier to save brass from factory ammo, and just reload it. Note I do reform a couple of rounds. One it is the only way to do it. There were fewer than 20 thousand rounds of loaded factory ammo made for it. The barrel kit for the gun came with a 2 die sets. One for forming, and trimming. The other for loading. __________________ No matter how many times you do it and nothing happens it only takes something going wrong one time to kill you.

December 25, 2012, 06:37 PM	#18
Jimro Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2006 Posts: 7,097	m&p45acp10+1, I had a long snarky comment in mind, but it is Christmas so I'll play nice. Just google "6.5x50 formed from 308 Win" and you'll see that it is a relatively easy conversion. The reason I recommended it is that the metric version of the 308 is also known as 7.62x51, which means that there would be much less trimming than using a 270 Win, which is about 64mm in length. And you are wrong about the 270 Win parent cartridge, the 270 Win is based on the 30-03 version, with the longer neck. Remember, when dealing with metric calibers, the first number is the bore diameter, the second number is the cartridge length. Merry Christmas. Jimro __________________ Machine guns are awesome until you have to carry one.

December 25, 2012, 10:55 PM	#19
sc928porsche Senior Member Join Date: May 29, 2008 Location: now living in alabama Posts: 2,433	Hornady makes loaded ammo for it (140 gr) for 20 bucks a box. Thats a dollar each and after fired, you can reload it. __________________ No such thing as a stupid question. What is stupid is not asking it.

December 26, 2012, 03:21 PM	#20
m&p45acp10+1 Senior Member Join Date: May 3, 2009 Location: Central Texas Posts: 3,930	Well I learn something new every day Jimro. I reform .221 Rem Fireball from .223 Rem brass. I also reform .357 Wildey Magnum from .475 Wildey Magnum brass. It takes a forming die, then the trim die. Then sizing. The .475 brass is neither cheap, or easy to come by that I have found. Though the gun is a real hoot to light off. __________________ No matter how many times you do it and nothing happens it only takes something going wrong one time to kill you.