New Army Handgun: We're Really Doing This

[WVsig]

I disagree with the view that a sidearm is nonessential. As our military embraces ever expanding technology the need for powerful sidearms also expands. Imagine a trailer full of drone pilots suddenly overun by adversaries what better tool for them to defend themselves with than a hangun?

A Rifle or a subgun would better suit them along with a handgun. You need to deliver a lot of rounds quickly in order to retreat to a better position under the cover of heavy guns.

I guess to me the real question is what about the M9 would not allow those drone pilots to defend themselves. What is a 40 S&W with ball ammo going to do that the M9 doesn't. What would a 1911 allow them to do that the M9 doesn't.

No matter what pistol caliber you choose it is a pour substitute for a rifle in the combat arena. It is purely a defensive weapon whose role is to buy you enough time to get to a rifle or at least under the protection of one.

Do we need to waste $350 million+ in tax payers money to simply get something to do the job no better than the current side arm.

[Venom1956]

What vwsig said.

A rifle is 1000999% better then a handgun

[kcub]

Maybe it's time to bring back the carbine concept that was introduced with the M1 carbine. But instead of an intermediate rifle round make it a pistol round carbine that has a folding stock and weighs in at about 5 pounds.

I always liked the accordion like folding stock of the uzi.

[TunnelRat]

Originally Posted by Brutus

I disagree with the view that a sidearm is nonessential. As our military embraces ever expanding technology the need for powerful sidearms also expands. Imagine a trailer full of drone pilots suddenly overun by adversaries what better tool for them to defend themselves with than a hangun?

Those drone pilots are in compounds in the Midwest. Line of sight communication isn't needed on the modern battlefield. Rear echelon personnel are better served by carbines or shotguns as WVsig said.

[Crankgrinder]

I can think of better things to waste taxpayer money on than new pistols, or extravagant Hawaii vacations for that matter.

[jmr40]

My vote is the new Glock 40 in 10mm. Why not. About the same size as the current Beretta, the military is moving toward optics on rifles, why not handguns. I understand the reasoning to stay with 9mm because it is a NATO round, but who says we have to use the same ammo everyone else is carrying. Especially when the bulk of the fighting is our boys doing it. The heck with NATO.

I have no problem with 9mm BTW and would have no problems staying with that caliber, but seriously think 45 is a step in the wrong direction. We are seeing more situations where light body armor is being used by our enemies. 45 ACP is a poor choice here, 9mm is better, but 40, 357 Sig, or 10mm are even better options.

If we are going to the trouble of developing a new gun, start thinking outside the box and really get innovative.

[chrisp51]

I don't know but the 5.7 fn with a 20 round mag can do a lot of damage.

[Independent George]

Originally Posted by 915A

I can tell you right now that we cant afford to make this happen. I am currently on Active Duty(18yrs and counting) and we are broker than broke. We are going back to pre-war times where every penny spent is micro managed. I struggle on a daily basis to order common repair parts to keep our fleet maintained. And personally, besides the current M9s being worn out, nothing wrong with the M9.

Crap. That means they're going to do it, doesn't it?

[seeker_two]

I don't care for the 5.7 round in a pistol, but it does pretty well in the 10+" barrel of the full-auto P-90. Maybe most of the pistol needs can be met with a PDW instead.

....and, for the ones where only a pistol will do, a smaller pistol like a Glock 19 or M&Pc would fit the bill.

[Metalboy]

"Crap. That means they're going to do it, doesn't it?"

Only in hindsight we'll know it, and than again maybe not even than.

[Andy Blozinski]

The F-35 might rank as the top most damaging thing to our military preparedness. If they want to spend some money on ANYTHING but that, it will probably be better spent.
If we get a cool modular pistol that can fire 9mm or .45 that can be switched to a few other applications, I'm alright with that.

[TxFlyFish]

What's a modular pistol?

[propforce]

I seem to remember a lot of same complaints when the Army switched from .45 ACP to 9 mm....

[Sharkbite]

Maybe it's time to bring back the carbine concept that was introduced with the M1 carbine. But instead of an intermediate rifle round make it a pistol round carbine that has a folding stock and weighs in at about 5 pounds.

HK tried that with the MP-7. Other then some VERY specialized units the acceptance by U.S. forces was lackluster to say the least

Ive never been a M9 fan. The USMC took my 1911 and issued me one. Not a fan. Having had to use a pistol as a secondary weapon in a couple of unfriendly countries during the past decade...i am glad it wasnt an M9.

That being said...it was a 9mm pistol. Im ok with that caliber choice.

[Evil Monkey]

who gives a damn what round it fires. It's all the same thing, PISTOL ROUNDS.

Second, no they're not going to spend millions on replacing a pistol, of all things.

What is the M9 for? Is it a PDW or an emergency weapon?

As an emergency weapon, the current M9 is fine.

As a PDW, a shoulder fired weapon would be more appropriate.

[Noreaster]

Ok, some of you don't think the M9 needs to be replaced. Some of you don't think the US Military should use a handgun for anything and a PDW would be better. The Army and Air Force want to replace their handguns. They want to have handguns. As for the $ for the program, I don't have an answer for you other than if they don't buy new handguns they won't be able to spend that money on something else. The money would probably be a procurement from Congress. Congress or the DOD wont say "hey you didn't spend that 35 million on handguns, here it is buy something else. Remember Pakistan is getting 1.6 billion in aid from us. I'd rather spend that money on the US military but it aint gonna happen. We can all argue about money better spent. When the Marines bought new M9a1 and Colt 1911s no one complained. I bet a Glock or M&P would have been cheaper.

[IZinterrogator]

Originally Posted by TunnelRat

Those drone pilots are in compounds in the Midwest. Line of sight communication isn't needed on the modern battlefield. Rear echelon personnel are better served by carbines or shotguns as WVsig said.

Shadows are flown line of sight. However, there's no point in getting in a gunfight in the shelter when you can just shoot through it instead.

[std7mag]

Alas, does no one here remember the M14 to M16 change over???

And why would it surprise anyone that the Army wants to do a study? Anyone want to buy a $5,000 toilet seat???

Oh, and the Marine Corps has already gone ahead and started replacing their M9 in the special ops groups with the M45..

Knowing how the military operates, I'm surprised that they haven't put in an order for Hi-Points in 380acp...

[kcub]

Related question to the more general topic of a better military sidearm, would this bullet design be Geneva/Hague compliant?

Lehigh Defense Xtreme Penetrator


Solid Copper (Lead Free) precision CNC machined design. *Good for the environment, bad, really bad for the target.

Unique nose that increases the hydraulic velocity creating high pressure spikes resulting in a larger permanent wound column and over twice the penetration than most expanding bullets.

Blunt nose for initial energy transfer and straight, deep penetration while allowing for reliable magazine feeding.

Solid copper construction and cutting edges to punch through entry barriers without deformation or deflection

http://www.underwoodammo.com/45acpp2...xpboxof20.aspx

http://www.underwoodammo.com/9mmluge...xpboxof20.aspx

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2...netrator-ammo/

[Nathan]

Honestly, they need a handgun, just not a combat handgun. The combat handgun may be a waste of time....in a tank, airplane, etc maybe not, but really only spec ops and MP's need handguns.

In a tank, airplane, machine gunner, etc, a PDW is the better tool. I'm thinking something modular like the new sig, but in a short rifle round like the 5.7 FN round. Modular like a pistol form with a laser for airplane pilots and tankers.....then a folding stock version with the small Trijicon dot sight and a flashlight for the field commanders.

Last, wanna really spend money right? Develop a small silencer that works decent to put on every M4! No reason to go deaf in modern times.

[testuser79]

Agreed that 9mm will likely stay for most soldiers, we're neglecting DoD police officers, criminal investigators, MPs and other security personnel whose primary weapon is a handgun. They might have a need for a .40 S&W pistol.

This could be handled with a modular design. It means slides and frames come together with zero fitting...like a Glock or M&P.

Say you have a need for an "offensive" handgun for a small number of individuals. You want a longer barrel, heavier caliber and a lighter trigger.

If the general issue handgun is in 9mm with decocker, like a Walther P99 AS, your "offensive" handgun would just delete the decocker like a Walter P99QA and go with a longer slide in .40 S&W. The frame stays the same and most replacement parts are still shared with the 9mm variant. All you do is purchase new slides and mags.

With a modular system, you can issue the same frame and slide to 99% and buy a small batch of barrels, slides and mags from the same manufacturer for those in the organization that have different requirements. No need to waste money on buying a different handgun for very few personnel just because they have unique mission requirements.

[Pilot]

M1 Carbine?

[Brutus]

Maybe the drone trailer was a bad example but what about the guys driving vehicles, kind of hard to swing a carbine in a vehicle and yes something like a 10mm might not penetrate body armor but it sure would hurt a hell of a lot more than a 9mm.

[Brit]

The FBI just spent a bunch of money, showing their 9mm rounds were best, for them. 9mm Luger +P 115 Grain Xtreme Penetrator would be an ideal round.

Glock pistols for the Military, Glock 19 Gen4. Light, and shoot lots of rounds prior to breaking, now made in the US.

Nothing to test, evaluate, invent! All the hardball ammo stocks, practice only.
But they still stop bad guys, everywhere, if that's all you have!

In order to stop aggression by an opponent, bullet must hit the organs, deep penetration. Anywhere you go in the world, 9mm is available.

[TunnelRat]

Originally Posted by IZinterrogator

Shadows are flown line of sight. However, there's no point in getting in a gunfight in the shelter when you can just shoot through it instead.

The Shadow is a relatively special case. I was thinking more Predator, Reaper, and Global Hawk but you are right that LOS does come into play for certain platforms. My point was there aren't trailers of operators comprising a command center for all drone operstions a stone's throw from enemy lines.