1858 issue

Kadmos · June 22, 2012, 06:04 PM

Came across a used 1858 Remington that was just too good of a deal to pass up.

Looked ugly as sin when I got it, covered in dried fouling, barrel like a sewer pipe, no grip screw, a rubber band holding homemade grips on it.

Cleaned up incredibly with just a fair bit of elbow grease, not sure if this gun is plated, stainless, or just in the white, a magnet will stick to it if that means anything. Just a few tiny stain spots I couldn't get off..at least not yet.

Also don't know the maker, it say on the barrel top "Black powder only New Army 1858 Remington" and "Made in Italy" on the side of the barrel.

No proof marks or date codes

Just ahead of the cylinder there is some sort of mark, which is poorly struck and slightly crooked, which I'm guessing is an importers mark, it's too badly struck to read but looks like it might have been 6 or seven letters, looks like it might be "HA----"

Ok now that I'm done braggin', here's the issue. While the pistol does in fact shoot, full cock isn't fully cocked. It does half cock ok, locks into full cock, trigger works. But if you pull the hammer all the way back it will come forward maybe 10-15 degrees then lock into full cock. Because of this the hammer obscures the sight a bit.

My thought is that
A. this is a parts gun which might need new hammer, trigger, bolt, hand to fit things to the right geometry

B.The tab on the top of the trigger may be too short, allowing the hammer not to be pushed back as far as it should (but somehow still works and safely)

I'd love to hear some thoughts though

Thanks

Microgunner · June 22, 2012, 06:22 PM

What we all want to know is what is a deal too good to pass up?

Kadmos · June 22, 2012, 06:50 PM

He asked $50, I offered $30, we settled on $40

mykeal · June 22, 2012, 09:53 PM

Picking nits a bit:

When you pull the hammer back past half cock, does it go into full cock on the way back and stay there?

Or do you have to pull it back past the full cock notch and then let it go forward the 10 to 15 degrees before it will enter the notch and stay there?

Kadmos · June 22, 2012, 10:21 PM

No, as I pull the trigger back it will click at half cock, then click at "full" cock, then I can still pull it back farther.

If I do pull it back farther and let it up, it will lock back into full cock.

Hellgate · June 22, 2012, 10:22 PM

Look under the rammer on the barrel for other manufacturer's marks.

Kadmos · June 22, 2012, 11:09 PM

217 is the only thing stamped under the barrel.

Serial number is H 12XX, don't know if the "H" of the serial means anything

mykeal · June 23, 2012, 06:25 AM

Quote:

I pull the trigger back it will click at half cock, then click at "full" cock, then I can still pull it back farther.

Ok, I understand you get a 'click' at full cock as the hammer comes back, and I understand that once you get that 'click' it's possible to pull it back further.

What I want to know is, when you get that 'click' at full cock, on the way back, if you don't pull it back further, will it stay in full cock?

Mechanically, the only thing that prevents the hammer from being pulled back beyond full cock is the main spring, so I find nothing particularly unusual about the fact that you can do that. It suggests the main spring may somewhat weak or maybe dislocated somehow. If the spring still has sufficient force to fire the caps I wouldn't mess with it.

What I'm trying to do is understand the relationship between the sear and the full cock notch. The sear should be snapped into the full cock notch by the trigger side of the trigger/bolt spring as the hammer comes back and first reaches that position. If that's not happening you have a broken or incorrectly installed trigger/bolt spring, or the sear is damaged, or the notch itself is damaged.

If you MUST pull the hammer back past full cock and then move it forward to enter full cock (and it stays there) then the broken/misplaced trigger/bolt spring is likely. But if that spring is ok and you get a good lockup in full cock on the way back, then it appears the only issue is the ability to pull the hammer back a few degrees further, and I'm not sure that's a serious problem. You may wish to get into replacing the main spring or not.

Hawg · June 23, 2012, 07:03 AM

What he said^

Kadmos · June 23, 2012, 10:44 AM

If I don't pull the hammer back farther it will stay at full cock.

The problem is that full cock isn't as far back as it should go, the hammer is far forward enough to obscure the sights. I did have a few failure to fires, but I was using uncle mikes nipples which are shorter, and some Remington caps of really questionable quality (priming compound fell out of several).

The mainspring seems ok. I'm really thinking now it's the trigger. I think half cock looks short also, and though I can barely see in there with the guard off and bolt out, it looks like the trigger really moves forward at half cock, like it's wedged sort of across half cock, rather than actually fully seating in the slot.

Hellgate · June 23, 2012, 11:52 AM

It sounds like you are getting overtravel from a too short trigger. Several of my guns will do what yours does: pull back beyond full cock but settle into the full cock notch. I don't like it either but I can still see the sights fine. A taller/longer trigger sear would cause the hammer to need to be pulled farther back to engage the full cock sear. My 2 cents is to get a new trigger. Maybe someone did some "tuning" and goofed up and reground the sear down a little too much to "fix" it. I read somewhere (so it must be true) that Colt made triggers a little on the long side in order that the guns could be properly fitted. Changing a trigger out on a Colt might change the POI due to changing the position of the hamer in its arc to a higher or lower point. I've thought about that with some Colts that have shot low.

buckhorn · June 23, 2012, 12:22 PM

Interesting. The guys who posted before me know buckets more than I do. I would like to know what you do with it in the end. It would help me down the road should I run into similar situations. I'm still waiting for my neighbor to bring over his old Pietta '58 that he overloaded, and then jammed it solid. [45 grains of pyrodex in an old Pietta . He's got his new gun and Howell cylinder, and he's supposed to bring them both over and give me the old brass Pietta if I help him with the cylinder install.

Kadmos · June 23, 2012, 12:45 PM

Will do buckhorn. Probably take me a week to get the parts, but I'll let ya'll know how it turned out.

It's kind of a pet peeve of mine, a guy asks for help on these forums and doesn't say how it turned out, then you find you have a similar question, do a search, find the thread (which is now two years old or some such), and still don't have the actual answer. Drives me nuts when working on cars especially.

mykeal · June 23, 2012, 01:27 PM

Hellgate +1.

Replace the trigger.

Possible cause: Trigger sears are hardened. Sometimes they break or chip. Owner 'dresses' the sear to clean it up, re-installs it and it works fine. Except it's not really fine at all - the remaining tip of the trigger sear is no longer hardened and wears quickly; what works fine at first gradually wears out leading to the situation you have.

Another possibility: I've heard about this but never seen it. Trigger sear corrodes, becomes embrittled, easily breaks off under normal use, leaving tip shorter and softer.

Interesting problem.

Kadmos · June 23, 2012, 10:51 PM

Ok, gonna try to upload a pic of that marking. My upload skills suck so expect it to be huge or tiny, but the image should be about as clear as the marking..not very

Personally I see the bottom of an "H" followed by the bottom of an "A" followed what appears to be the Klingon number "8" or maybe a "W", followed by what I think is the Hebrew letter "Mem", then the bottom of the smiley "

", followed by two dashes (one long, one short)...but there is a slight chance I am reading it wrong

mykeal · June 24, 2012, 05:29 AM

That mark wasn't made by any professional like a manufacturer or importer. That's some amateur's attempt at putting his name or some cute name on his gun with individual letter stamps.

Beagle333 · June 24, 2012, 08:40 AM

Quote:

Personally I see the bottom of an "H" followed by the bottom of an "A" followed what appears to be the Klingon number "8" or maybe a "W", followed by what I think is the Hebrew letter "Mem", then the bottom of the smiley "", followed by two dashes (one long, one short)...

This made my morning. Thank you. ROFL.

buckhorn · June 24, 2012, 01:14 PM

It appears as though someone was having fun with their die-punch set.

Doc Hoy · June 24, 2012, 04:58 PM

....a Hawes?

I know it is not the way they are normally marked but there are exceptions to every rule.

Kadmos · June 24, 2012, 06:51 PM

I don't think I've ever heard of Hawes. Are/were they a manufacturer or importer?

Does anyone have a Hawes with anything similar stamped on it?

I didn't even think of someone with a hand punch set, I don't think that is the case though, the "H" has a sort of fancy turndown on the crossbar to the left hand side. Most handpunch sets use a very plain font

Doc Hoy · June 24, 2012, 07:04 PM

Hawes was an importer and I am not certain we have ever locked down who did the manufacturing.

Neither of mine are marked as yours is. Mine are marked on the barrel.

They are of moderate quality.

Kadmos · June 24, 2012, 10:46 PM

Thanks Doc, just out of curiosity was wondering if the serial numbers of yours start with "H" also, might nail this down a bit more.

I couldn't find any close up pics of a Hawes marking, but it looked like the couple said Hawes Firearm Co.

I'm thinking maybe I got an early model import and they didn't have proper stamping equipment yet...dunno

buckhorn · June 25, 2012, 04:17 PM

I've heard of Hawes and actually have some old "Guns'n'Ammo" with ads for them in the '70's and 80"s. They made several types of replicas. I understand they went under but I don't know how long ago. The 'Shooter's Bible' from 1995 doesn't list them as vendors anymore.

Doc Hoy · June 25, 2012, 05:25 PM

....I have only one Hawes. Photos are included.

I had forgotten that the second one was traded off.

The second photo shows the SN and the first character is a "1".

The missing revolver was a Remington and it was marked in a way identical to the Navy shown in the photos.

I confess, I do not remember the serial number nor whether the first digit was an "H".

I do remember that there was no marking on the side of the frame that looked like your photo.

You can see from the photo above that the markings on the Navy are fairly nicely done.

Kadmos · June 25, 2012, 06:16 PM

Thanks Doc, guess this one might stay a mystery for now.

June 22, 2012, 06:04 PM	#1
Kadmos Member Join Date: April 27, 2010 Posts: 93	1858 issue Came across a used 1858 Remington that was just too good of a deal to pass up. Looked ugly as sin when I got it, covered in dried fouling, barrel like a sewer pipe, no grip screw, a rubber band holding homemade grips on it. Cleaned up incredibly with just a fair bit of elbow grease, not sure if this gun is plated, stainless, or just in the white, a magnet will stick to it if that means anything. Just a few tiny stain spots I couldn't get off..at least not yet. Also don't know the maker, it say on the barrel top "Black powder only New Army 1858 Remington" and "Made in Italy" on the side of the barrel. No proof marks or date codes Just ahead of the cylinder there is some sort of mark, which is poorly struck and slightly crooked, which I'm guessing is an importers mark, it's too badly struck to read but looks like it might have been 6 or seven letters, looks like it might be "HA----" Ok now that I'm done braggin', here's the issue. While the pistol does in fact shoot, full cock isn't fully cocked. It does half cock ok, locks into full cock, trigger works. But if you pull the hammer all the way back it will come forward maybe 10-15 degrees then lock into full cock. Because of this the hammer obscures the sight a bit. My thought is that A. this is a parts gun which might need new hammer, trigger, bolt, hand to fit things to the right geometry B.The tab on the top of the trigger may be too short, allowing the hammer not to be pushed back as far as it should (but somehow still works and safely) I'd love to hear some thoughts though Thanks

June 22, 2012, 06:22 PM	#2
Microgunner Senior Member Join Date: March 6, 2006 Location: Central Florida Posts: 3,324	What we all want to know is what is a deal too good to pass up? __________________ *Proud NRA Benefactor Member*

June 22, 2012, 10:22 PM	#6
Hellgate Senior Member Join Date: November 18, 2010 Location: Orygun Posts: 869	Look under the rammer on the barrel for other manufacturer's marks. __________________ With over 15 perCUSSIN' revolvers, I've been called the Imelda Marcos of cap & ball. SASS#3302 (Life), SASS Regulator, NRA (Life), Dirty Gamey Bastards #129 Wolverton Mtn. Peacekeepers (WA), former Orygun Cowboy (Ranger, Posse from Hell)

June 23, 2012, 11:52 AM	#11
Hellgate Senior Member Join Date: November 18, 2010 Location: Orygun Posts: 869	It sounds like you are getting overtravel from a too short trigger. Several of my guns will do what yours does: pull back beyond full cock but settle into the full cock notch. I don't like it either but I can still see the sights fine. A taller/longer trigger sear would cause the hammer to need to be pulled farther back to engage the full cock sear. My 2 cents is to get a new trigger. Maybe someone did some "tuning" and goofed up and reground the sear down a little too much to "fix" it. I read somewhere (so it must be true) that Colt made triggers a little on the long side in order that the guns could be properly fitted. Changing a trigger out on a Colt might change the POI due to changing the position of the hamer in its arc to a higher or lower point. I've thought about that with some Colts that have shot low. __________________ With over 15 perCUSSIN' revolvers, I've been called the Imelda Marcos of cap & ball. SASS#3302 (Life), SASS Regulator, NRA (Life), Dirty Gamey Bastards #129 Wolverton Mtn. Peacekeepers (WA), former Orygun Cowboy (Ranger, Posse from Hell)

June 23, 2012, 10:51 PM	#15
Kadmos Member Join Date: April 27, 2010 Posts: 93	Ok, gonna try to upload a pic of that marking. My upload skills suck so expect it to be huge or tiny, but the image should be about as clear as the marking..not very Personally I see the bottom of an "H" followed by the bottom of an "A" followed what appears to be the Klingon number "8" or maybe a "W", followed by what I think is the Hebrew letter "Mem", then the bottom of the smiley "", followed by two dashes (one long, one short)...but there is a slight chance I am reading it wrong

June 22, 2012, 06:50 PM	#3
Kadmos Member Join Date: April 27, 2010 Posts: 93	He asked $50, I offered $30, we settled on $40

June 22, 2012, 09:53 PM	#4
mykeal Senior Member Join Date: October 8, 2006 Location: Northern Michigan Posts: 2,772	Picking nits a bit: When you pull the hammer back past half cock, does it go into full cock on the way back and stay there? Or do you have to pull it back past the full cock notch and then let it go forward the 10 to 15 degrees before it will enter the notch and stay there?

June 22, 2012, 10:21 PM	#5
Kadmos Member Join Date: April 27, 2010 Posts: 93	No, as I pull the trigger back it will click at half cock, then click at "full" cock, then I can still pull it back farther. If I do pull it back farther and let it up, it will lock back into full cock.

June 22, 2012, 11:09 PM	#7
Kadmos Member Join Date: April 27, 2010 Posts: 93	217 is the only thing stamped under the barrel. Serial number is H 12XX, don't know if the "H" of the serial means anything

June 23, 2012, 07:03 AM	#9
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,188	What he said^

June 23, 2012, 10:44 AM	#10
Kadmos Member Join Date: April 27, 2010 Posts: 93	If I don't pull the hammer back farther it will stay at full cock. The problem is that full cock isn't as far back as it should go, the hammer is far forward enough to obscure the sights. I did have a few failure to fires, but I was using uncle mikes nipples which are shorter, and some Remington caps of really questionable quality (priming compound fell out of several). The mainspring seems ok. I'm really thinking now it's the trigger. I think half cock looks short also, and though I can barely see in there with the guard off and bolt out, it looks like the trigger really moves forward at half cock, like it's wedged sort of across half cock, rather than actually fully seating in the slot.

June 23, 2012, 12:22 PM	#12
buckhorn Senior Member Join Date: May 11, 2012 Location: mid michigan Posts: 196	Interesting. The guys who posted before me know buckets more than I do. I would like to know what you do with it in the end. It would help me down the road should I run into similar situations. I'm still waiting for my neighbor to bring over his old Pietta '58 that he overloaded, and then jammed it solid. [45 grains of pyrodex in an old Pietta . He's got his new gun and Howell cylinder, and he's supposed to bring them both over and give me the old brass Pietta if I help him with the cylinder install.

June 23, 2012, 12:45 PM	#13
Kadmos Member Join Date: April 27, 2010 Posts: 93	Will do buckhorn. Probably take me a week to get the parts, but I'll let ya'll know how it turned out. It's kind of a pet peeve of mine, a guy asks for help on these forums and doesn't say how it turned out, then you find you have a similar question, do a search, find the thread (which is now two years old or some such), and still don't have the actual answer. Drives me nuts when working on cars especially.

June 23, 2012, 01:27 PM	#14
mykeal Senior Member Join Date: October 8, 2006 Location: Northern Michigan Posts: 2,772	Hellgate +1. Replace the trigger. Possible cause: Trigger sears are hardened. Sometimes they break or chip. Owner 'dresses' the sear to clean it up, re-installs it and it works fine. Except it's not really fine at all - the remaining tip of the trigger sear is no longer hardened and wears quickly; what works fine at first gradually wears out leading to the situation you have. Another possibility: I've heard about this but never seen it. Trigger sear corrodes, becomes embrittled, easily breaks off under normal use, leaving tip shorter and softer. Interesting problem.

June 24, 2012, 05:29 AM	#16
mykeal Senior Member Join Date: October 8, 2006 Location: Northern Michigan Posts: 2,772	That mark wasn't made by any professional like a manufacturer or importer. That's some amateur's attempt at putting his name or some cute name on his gun with individual letter stamps.

June 24, 2012, 01:14 PM	#18
buckhorn Senior Member Join Date: May 11, 2012 Location: mid michigan Posts: 196	It appears as though someone was having fun with their die-punch set.

June 24, 2012, 04:58 PM	#19
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	Could it be ....a Hawes? I know it is not the way they are normally marked but there are exceptions to every rule. __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath. Last edited by Doc Hoy; June 24, 2012 at 06:28 PM.

June 24, 2012, 06:51 PM	#20
Kadmos Member Join Date: April 27, 2010 Posts: 93	I don't think I've ever heard of Hawes. Are/were they a manufacturer or importer? Does anyone have a Hawes with anything similar stamped on it? I didn't even think of someone with a hand punch set, I don't think that is the case though, the "H" has a sort of fancy turndown on the crossbar to the left hand side. Most handpunch sets use a very plain font

June 24, 2012, 07:04 PM	#21
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	I have 2 Hawes revolvers Hawes was an importer and I am not certain we have ever locked down who did the manufacturing. Neither of mine are marked as yours is. Mine are marked on the barrel. They are of moderate quality. __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.

June 24, 2012, 10:46 PM	#22
Kadmos Member Join Date: April 27, 2010 Posts: 93	Thanks Doc, just out of curiosity was wondering if the serial numbers of yours start with "H" also, might nail this down a bit more. I couldn't find any close up pics of a Hawes marking, but it looked like the couple said Hawes Firearm Co. I'm thinking maybe I got an early model import and they didn't have proper stamping equipment yet...dunno

June 25, 2012, 04:17 PM	#23
buckhorn Senior Member Join Date: May 11, 2012 Location: mid michigan Posts: 196	I've heard of Hawes and actually have some old "Guns'n'Ammo" with ads for them in the '70's and 80"s. They made several types of replicas. I understand they went under but I don't know how long ago. The 'Shooter's Bible' from 1995 doesn't list them as vendors anymore.

June 25, 2012, 05:25 PM	#24
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	I owe you an apology..... ....I have only one Hawes. Photos are included. I had forgotten that the second one was traded off. The second photo shows the SN and the first character is a "1". The missing revolver was a Remington and it was marked in a way identical to the Navy shown in the photos. I confess, I do not remember the serial number nor whether the first digit was an "H". I do remember that there was no marking on the side of the frame that looked like your photo. You can see from the photo above that the markings on the Navy are fairly nicely done. __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.

June 25, 2012, 06:16 PM	#25
Kadmos Member Join Date: April 27, 2010 Posts: 93	Thanks Doc, guess this one might stay a mystery for now.