What lifestyle do you REALLY want?

Viceroy808 · November 21, 2000, 11:46 PM

Ok, in this forum we have seen discussions on what the ideal means of defense in:

(1) Houses
(2) Cars
(3) Weapons (CCW etc)
(4) Multiple scenarios (work, leisure)

What I see happening is more description of steps that take Condition Yellow to a siege mentality that would put the most rabid survivalist or 50s atomic fallout bunker digger guru to total shame. At least, that's what I'm starting to think of ... firing ports in roofs notwithstanding (forgot who suggested it but no offense is intended at all ok?) it's nice to be able to live a normal life whatever that is nowadays ...

Is it worth it to you? Do you want to live in a modern-day Krak de Chevaliers, drive the urban equivalent of a WW1 dreadnought, walk around your home in pajamas toting shotguns and carbines, treat every trip to the supermarket like a supply run across the Volga to Stalingrad? Does your life warrant such measures?

I don't see people here as being like that. I'm trying to point out, say, that it is easy to talk about setting claymores in your driveway, but to actually think it is a good idea? Would you rig landmines in suburbia? Tripwires leading to shotguns? As a matter of conjecture ... what is the border between paranoia and reasonable preparation, what to you is really good defensive common sense?

Mort · November 22, 2000, 03:28 AM

Well, I have a problem with fortification anyway. I think the whole MOVE incident nicely illustrated what happens in a real siege nowadays. The main thing is to be ready to leave. Heavy on preparation, light on equipment.

twist996 · November 22, 2000, 07:53 AM

if ya not paranoid, you're not paying attention....won't say that i live like some claymore happy recluse, but i value my privacy...i plan for these situations because they might happen, and i want to be ready....i work at being alert, secure, and responsive....my safety and the safety of my loved ones is worth the effort....

nbk2000 · November 22, 2000, 10:12 AM

I'm the person who posted the firing ports (murder holes) in the floor/ceiling. But that was in response to someones query about defensive architecture in castles and so I related how murder holes were a common feature and how they could POSSIBLY be added to ones home if one were so paranoid (scared) as to want them.

Personally, I think a lot of stuff here IS excessive paranoia. I don't even own a gun (I'm VERY pro-gun so don't start on that), let alone building firing ports in my house. And a lot of the scenarios I've seen posted here seem like excerises in mental masturbation.

Typical scenario:

You're at (popular place with lots of crowds/dark deserted place/wherever) with your (girlfriend/family/whoever) when (wacko/terrorist/gangsta'/BG/whatever) armed with (silenced pistol/machine gun/bazooka) (waves it around/opens fire/takes hostages/whatever).

You are armed with only your trusty (insert favorite gun here) with one spare clip. There's (1,2, whole gang) of the (wacko/terrorist/gangsta'/BG)'s .

What do you do?

No matter what the scenario the replies always break down to either run away and call 911 or take out the bad guy (guys) yourself.

Personally, no matter what the situation I'm saving me and my family, everyone else is cannon fodder/decoy targets for the (wacko/terrorist/gangsta'/BG) as far as I'm concerned. If I have to push them between me and the BG to stop a bullet, oh well.

Viceroy808 · November 22, 2000, 12:47 PM

Oh that was me. I should ask the admin's to change my old name (dragontooth73) so I can still keep my posts and my Senior Member status, like they did for Frontsight!/Steve Smith, but I'll wait on it.

Well, some of the answers to the scenarios tend to border on hero-infatuation, true enough. I don't think they're untowardly senseless, however; they'd be pointed out as such if they were.

I think most of the people get by with what could be called "minimal" preparations just fine. What I really wanted to know is that was there a committment to be found in reaching a very very deep Condition Yellow that would change your life and the way you live it? Sometimes I sleep in the doorway with my feet planted on the door. That's something I picked up from experience; not because I wanted to but because I'd have died if I hadn't done it in several occasions in my life.

What I really wanted to ask is how much defense do you think your life warrants, and how it would change your life away from what you'd be living if you were blissfully unconcerned with such issues.

Personally I think 90% of the measures are reasonable. But when you start getting into the "more is always better" mode, do you cross into that 10%? When you have a dozen BGs blown apart by claymores on your lawn and shot down, and you set down your belt-fed machinegun, is that really the outcome you want when the LEOs come and you have to explain it in court? Really, when is too much simply just too much?

Dave R · November 22, 2000, 04:45 PM

My belief--statistically, your risk at home is 1/2 a bell-shaped curve. (Single-tail? Help me out, statisticians). It only takes a little effort to move pretty far down the curve (i.e. remove most of your risk). Its takes a lot of effort to remove the last 5% of total risk. I think reasonable efforts include:

1) Getting a dog. That reduces your risk substantially, right there. Prepared amateurs will case your place, note the dog and look elsewhere. Stupid crooks or druggies may not catch the dog, but probably won't get past the first attempt to open a door/window before the dog scares them away.

2) Improving security of most likely points of access. Removing bushes that provide good hide/access points for BG/s. Installing floodlights with motion detectors in most likely access points. Upgrading locks.

3) Getting a cell phone and keeping it handy, with 1-button access to 911, so if the "cut your lines" you can still communicate.

4) Having a plan. Probably should've put this first. A fire plan, a break-in plan, and a "home invasion" plan. Fire plan probably has more value than break-in plan. If you're in CA, an earthquake plan. In southern coasts, a hurricane plan. In Portland/Seattle, a volcano plan.

5) Keep your CCW weapon on you in the house. I saw a TV special on home invasion. Most folks disarms their alarm system and lock up their firearms at home. Keeping your weapon on you and your alarm system activated seems like a reasonable precaution. Again, the Dog is probably the best first step.

6) This may sound stupid, but let your neighbors know you're a shooter. Show off some good targets or brag about your skeet score. Throw out used targets etc. in the trash. If someone is casing you, they'll likely prefer a non-shooter.

7) Chill out and enjoy life. If you've done some/all of the above, you've removed most of the risk. Odds are the house next door/over the hill will now look like a better target than your home.

I can't get into barbed wire/claymore type living. At some point, that stuff increases legal liability to more than offset the additional security.

IMHO.

LASur5r · November 22, 2000, 09:52 PM

I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one, young man.
The reason you and I and all the other members of TFL and many Americans like us are "discussing these issues" is because we have taken the moral high ground, therefore it is incumbent upon us to show more restraint in handling ourselves.
When I first went into Apache territory, I wondered that with all our might, why we just didn't pull the troops out and nuke the whole mess into h#@l! That way we could save a lot of American men and women's lives and we could all go home.
When I learned to fight Charlie his way, then we were on the offensive, we took control, and we determined when engagement happened rather than just slogging through the boonies hoping to run into a contingent of the NVA. I was becoming a happy camper.
When I got stateside, when I got back to the "real" world, then i saw that Americans had rules, that we needed to follow the rules and i couldn't apply what I had learned over there to over here. I learned that what I fought for over there....was to preserve the "ideals" of the American way.
Through quite a bit of American history, we strayed often but we kept coming back to preserve the American way of life....the rest of the world, little by little, seems to be evolving that way to some degree.
This country has something of what all people in this planet seem to want...each has his/her ideal.
For me, it means if I am to be a "civilized" American, I play by the rules; I stay within the law;...etc..,etc..
It means, I don't "zap" my boss because he is trying to fire me. It means i don't set up an ambush for the local gang guys that just tried to attack my neighbor....it means I uphold this Constitution and the Bill of Rights on which this country was founded.
Even if it means I have to be defensive and in siege mode....I don't have to like it, but there are ways within this system that you can fight back...and that's the trick, Hing dai, we fight within the system and if we don't like it we try to change the system...legally....and together.

Sorry about the soap box. You and I have talked on E-mail, we owe it to ourselves and our future to take the moral high ground. All of us do. Keep the faith.

Viceroy808 · November 23, 2000, 04:41 AM

LASur5er shi, in all honesty I think you misread me somewhere in this thread. Either that or I seriously screwed up communicating ideas. The gist of what I'm saying is that it must be NUTS to consider murder holes, claymores, and belt-fed machinguns to be a serious choice in personal defense. Anything that is done will HAVE to be accountable to the law - which is why I mentioned having to deal with the LEOs arriving and to explain it in court should this kind of extreme approach be taken.

The reason I posted this thread in the first place is because nbk2000 suggested the creation of "murder holes" via firing ports in a house and blasting BGs in the doorway (no offense nbk2000, I know you meant that in sarcasm and you got me thinking for which I am truly grateful) ... the word murder to me was a serious slap to the head. I mean really, the ideal means of "home defense" taken on a confrontational level like this is to go on the offensive - locate the gang members, shoot them down where they live. "Why shoot them in the house when you can shoot them in the doorway? Why shoot them in the doorway when you can nail 'em in the driveway? Why settle for the driveway when you can get them from across the block? Forget the block, get them at home, show 'em how it feels ..." This kind of logic is just plain nuts. That's premeditated murder, and it's not crime prevention. It's a flat out crime.

Pre-empting home invasions by planting explosives on the perimiter, or picking them off with a .50 cal rifle the moment the BGs life a foot off the sidewalk is just plain ludicrous. I wanted to introduce a question where I'd get opinions on "Ok what is enough for home defense?" And by and large I think the replies have been ok. I recognize the importance of dogs much more, for instance. In fact, I'm taking Dave R's suggestions to heart and I see them as the perfect model for basic home security. I'll add on the recommendations for lights in other threads for good measure, but no more.

I really, really don't want to come across as some rabid nutcase who thinks "ok I think I have a right to slap a 100-round drum on an RPK and mow down everyone who steps into my driveway" ... I thought I was making it clear that was going that far is nuts and people had to stop before they got to that point? LASur5er shi, if I've in any way unwittingly written anything that is offensive to you or others, I am truly sorry. I'm going to reread my previous posts and try to figure it out.

[Edited by Viceroy808 on 11-23-2000 at 11:15 AM]

zanthope · November 23, 2000, 11:57 AM

To complement my cleverly emplaced M-60's, Browning 30's, twin quad 50 AAA platforms on the roof, and the sighted-in 155 mm AP rounds, I've hidden Claymores in the bushes around the doors and installed C4 empregnated with buckshot and razorblades in the nearby bird feeders. NO ONE would ever expect that.......anyway, hopefully an attack from the JBT's and BG's could coincide with some feeding frenzy at an ornothologically optimal moment....lotsa birds around...and as well as maintaining my safety and serenity and security, I'd have a whole lot of feathers and maybe a squirrel tail or two to make a really swell quilt.
Whatdya think?

[Edited by zanthope on 11-23-2000 at 10:06 PM]

LASur5r · November 23, 2000, 01:52 PM

Sorry Hing Dai,
Was a long week...brain turn to mush at end of day....my bad.
Now that I reread your thread...I must agree, by all means...see? I can be just as contrary as Florida voting system.
You are right, we don't cross the line...but if we do and we really want to turn the house into a castle full of traps...I have a lot of good ideas.....heee..heee...heee.
I pau hana now....must get rest....Have a Great Thanksgiving.

November 21, 2000, 11:46 PM	#1
Viceroy808 Member Join Date: November 16, 2000 Posts: 86	Ok, in this forum we have seen discussions on what the ideal means of defense in: (1) Houses (2) Cars (3) Weapons (CCW etc) (4) Multiple scenarios (work, leisure) What I see happening is more description of steps that take Condition Yellow to a siege mentality that would put the most rabid survivalist or 50s atomic fallout bunker digger guru to total shame. At least, that's what I'm starting to think of ... firing ports in roofs notwithstanding (forgot who suggested it but no offense is intended at all ok?) it's nice to be able to live a normal life whatever that is nowadays ... Is it worth it to you? Do you want to live in a modern-day Krak de Chevaliers, drive the urban equivalent of a WW1 dreadnought, walk around your home in pajamas toting shotguns and carbines, treat every trip to the supermarket like a supply run across the Volga to Stalingrad? Does your life warrant such measures? I don't see people here as being like that. I'm trying to point out, say, that it is easy to talk about setting claymores in your driveway, but to actually think it is a good idea? Would you rig landmines in suburbia? Tripwires leading to shotguns? As a matter of conjecture ... what is the border between paranoia and reasonable preparation, what to you is really good defensive common sense? __________________ FYI: Yes I am that pup dragontooth73 - I just decided to go under my hotmail name for all my identities to simplify. Differnt name, same pup [i]People always die for their inability and suffer defeat for their lack of training. Therefore education and discipline are priorities in the arts of war.[i] Wu Qi's Art of War

November 22, 2000, 07:53 AM	#3
twist996 Member Join Date: October 20, 2000 Posts: 85	if ya not paranoid, you're not paying attention....won't say that i live like some claymore happy recluse, but i value my privacy...i plan for these situations because they might happen, and i want to be ready....i work at being alert, secure, and responsive....my safety and the safety of my loved ones is worth the effort.... __________________ speak now, or forever hold your peace

November 22, 2000, 04:45 PM	#6
Dave R Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2000 Location: Idaho Posts: 6,073	Keep it reasonable My belief--statistically, your risk at home is 1/2 a bell-shaped curve. (Single-tail? Help me out, statisticians). It only takes a little effort to move pretty far down the curve (i.e. remove most of your risk). Its takes a lot of effort to remove the last 5% of total risk. I think reasonable efforts include: 1) Getting a dog. That reduces your risk substantially, right there. Prepared amateurs will case your place, note the dog and look elsewhere. Stupid crooks or druggies may not catch the dog, but probably won't get past the first attempt to open a door/window before the dog scares them away. 2) Improving security of most likely points of access. Removing bushes that provide good hide/access points for BG/s. Installing floodlights with motion detectors in most likely access points. Upgrading locks. 3) Getting a cell phone and keeping it handy, with 1-button access to 911, so if the "cut your lines" you can still communicate. 4) Having a plan. Probably should've put this first. A fire plan, a break-in plan, and a "home invasion" plan. Fire plan probably has more value than break-in plan. If you're in CA, an earthquake plan. In southern coasts, a hurricane plan. In Portland/Seattle, a volcano plan. 5) Keep your CCW weapon on you in the house. I saw a TV special on home invasion. Most folks disarms their alarm system and lock up their firearms at home. Keeping your weapon on you and your alarm system activated seems like a reasonable precaution. Again, the Dog is probably the best first step. 6) This may sound stupid, but let your neighbors know you're a shooter. Show off some good targets or brag about your skeet score. Throw out used targets etc. in the trash. If someone is casing you, they'll likely prefer a non-shooter. 7) Chill out and enjoy life. If you've done some/all of the above, you've removed most of the risk. Odds are the house next door/over the hill will now look like a better target than your home. I can't get into barbed wire/claymore type living. At some point, that stuff increases legal liability to more than offset the additional security. IMHO.

November 22, 2000, 09:52 PM	#7
LASur5r Junior member Join Date: July 20, 2000 Location: pasadena,california,America Posts: 542	What lifestyle do you really want? I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one, young man. The reason you and I and all the other members of TFL and many Americans like us are "discussing these issues" is because we have taken the moral high ground, therefore it is incumbent upon us to show more restraint in handling ourselves. When I first went into Apache territory, I wondered that with all our might, why we just didn't pull the troops out and nuke the whole mess into h#@l! That way we could save a lot of American men and women's lives and we could all go home. When I learned to fight Charlie his way, then we were on the offensive, we took control, and we determined when engagement happened rather than just slogging through the boonies hoping to run into a contingent of the NVA. I was becoming a happy camper. When I got stateside, when I got back to the "real" world, then i saw that Americans had rules, that we needed to follow the rules and i couldn't apply what I had learned over there to over here. I learned that what I fought for over there....was to preserve the "ideals" of the American way. Through quite a bit of American history, we strayed often but we kept coming back to preserve the American way of life....the rest of the world, little by little, seems to be evolving that way to some degree. This country has something of what all people in this planet seem to want...each has his/her ideal. For me, it means if I am to be a "civilized" American, I play by the rules; I stay within the law;...etc..,etc.. It means, I don't "zap" my boss because he is trying to fire me. It means i don't set up an ambush for the local gang guys that just tried to attack my neighbor....it means I uphold this Constitution and the Bill of Rights on which this country was founded. Even if it means I have to be defensive and in siege mode....I don't have to like it, but there are ways within this system that you can fight back...and that's the trick, Hing dai, we fight within the system and if we don't like it we try to change the system...legally....and together. Sorry about the soap box. You and I have talked on E-mail, we owe it to ourselves and our future to take the moral high ground. All of us do. Keep the faith.

November 23, 2000, 11:57 AM	#9
zanthope Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2000 Location: Ohio Posts: 258	Optimizing with a Fringe Benny.... To complement my cleverly emplaced M-60's, Browning 30's, twin quad 50 AAA platforms on the roof, and the sighted-in 155 mm AP rounds, I've hidden Claymores in the bushes around the doors and installed C4 empregnated with buckshot and razorblades in the nearby bird feeders. NO ONE would ever expect that.......anyway, hopefully an attack from the JBT's and BG's could coincide with some feeding frenzy at an ornothologically optimal moment....lotsa birds around...and as well as maintaining my safety and serenity and security, I'd have a whole lot of feathers and maybe a squirrel tail or two to make a really swell quilt. Whatdya think? [Edited by zanthope on 11-23-2000 at 10:06 PM] __________________ We are born naked, wet, and hungry. Then it gets worse.

November 22, 2000, 03:28 AM	#2
Mort Senior Member Join Date: December 17, 1998 Posts: 479	Well, I have a problem with fortification anyway. I think the whole MOVE incident nicely illustrated what happens in a real siege nowadays. The main thing is to be ready to leave. Heavy on preparation, light on equipment.

November 22, 2000, 10:12 AM	#4
nbk2000 Senior Member Join Date: October 13, 2000 Posts: 216	I'm the person who posted the firing ports (murder holes) in the floor/ceiling. But that was in response to someones query about defensive architecture in castles and so I related how murder holes were a common feature and how they could POSSIBLY be added to ones home if one were so paranoid (scared) as to want them. Personally, I think a lot of stuff here IS excessive paranoia. I don't even own a gun (I'm VERY pro-gun so don't start on that), let alone building firing ports in my house. And a lot of the scenarios I've seen posted here seem like excerises in mental masturbation. Typical scenario: You're at (popular place with lots of crowds/dark deserted place/wherever) with your (girlfriend/family/whoever) when (wacko/terrorist/gangsta'/BG/whatever) armed with (silenced pistol/machine gun/bazooka) (waves it around/opens fire/takes hostages/whatever). You are armed with only your trusty (insert favorite gun here) with one spare clip. There's (1,2, whole gang) of the (wacko/terrorist/gangsta'/BG)'s . What do you do? No matter what the scenario the replies always break down to either run away and call 911 or take out the bad guy (guys) yourself. Personally, no matter what the situation I'm saving me and my family, everyone else is cannon fodder/decoy targets for the (wacko/terrorist/gangsta'/BG) as far as I'm concerned. If I have to push them between me and the BG to stop a bullet, oh well.

November 22, 2000, 12:47 PM	#5
Viceroy808 Member Join Date: November 16, 2000 Posts: 86	Oh that was me. I should ask the admin's to change my old name (dragontooth73) so I can still keep my posts and my Senior Member status, like they did for Frontsight!/Steve Smith, but I'll wait on it. Well, some of the answers to the scenarios tend to border on hero-infatuation, true enough. I don't think they're untowardly senseless, however; they'd be pointed out as such if they were. I think most of the people get by with what could be called "minimal" preparations just fine. What I really wanted to know is that was there a committment to be found in reaching a very very deep Condition Yellow that would change your life and the way you live it? Sometimes I sleep in the doorway with my feet planted on the door. That's something I picked up from experience; not because I wanted to but because I'd have died if I hadn't done it in several occasions in my life. What I really wanted to ask is how much defense do you think your life warrants, and how it would change your life away from what you'd be living if you were blissfully unconcerned with such issues. Personally I think 90% of the measures are reasonable. But when you start getting into the "more is always better" mode, do you cross into that 10%? When you have a dozen BGs blown apart by claymores on your lawn and shot down, and you set down your belt-fed machinegun, is that really the outcome you want when the LEOs come and you have to explain it in court? Really, when is too much simply just too much?

November 23, 2000, 04:41 AM	#8
Viceroy808 Member Join Date: November 16, 2000 Posts: 86	LASur5er shi, in all honesty I think you misread me somewhere in this thread. Either that or I seriously screwed up communicating ideas. The gist of what I'm saying is that it must be NUTS to consider murder holes, claymores, and belt-fed machinguns to be a serious choice in personal defense. Anything that is done will HAVE to be accountable to the law - which is why I mentioned having to deal with the LEOs arriving and to explain it in court should this kind of extreme approach be taken. The reason I posted this thread in the first place is because nbk2000 suggested the creation of "murder holes" via firing ports in a house and blasting BGs in the doorway (no offense nbk2000, I know you meant that in sarcasm and you got me thinking for which I am truly grateful) ... the word murder to me was a serious slap to the head. I mean really, the ideal means of "home defense" taken on a confrontational level like this is to go on the offensive - locate the gang members, shoot them down where they live. "Why shoot them in the house when you can shoot them in the doorway? Why shoot them in the doorway when you can nail 'em in the driveway? Why settle for the driveway when you can get them from across the block? Forget the block, get them at home, show 'em how it feels ..." This kind of logic is just plain nuts. That's premeditated murder, and it's not crime prevention. It's a flat out crime. Pre-empting home invasions by planting explosives on the perimiter, or picking them off with a .50 cal rifle the moment the BGs life a foot off the sidewalk is just plain ludicrous. I wanted to introduce a question where I'd get opinions on "Ok what is enough for home defense?" And by and large I think the replies have been ok. I recognize the importance of dogs much more, for instance. In fact, I'm taking Dave R's suggestions to heart and I see them as the perfect model for basic home security. I'll add on the recommendations for lights in other threads for good measure, but no more. I really, really don't want to come across as some rabid nutcase who thinks "ok I think I have a right to slap a 100-round drum on an RPK and mow down everyone who steps into my driveway" ... I thought I was making it clear that was going that far is nuts and people had to stop before they got to that point? LASur5er shi, if I've in any way unwittingly written anything that is offensive to you or others, I am truly sorry. I'm going to reread my previous posts and try to figure it out. [Edited by Viceroy808 on 11-23-2000 at 11:15 AM]

November 23, 2000, 01:52 PM	#10
LASur5r Junior member Join Date: July 20, 2000 Location: pasadena,california,America Posts: 542	Spider holes Sorry Hing Dai, Was a long week...brain turn to mush at end of day....my bad. Now that I reread your thread...I must agree, by all means...see? I can be just as contrary as Florida voting system. You are right, we don't cross the line...but if we do and we really want to turn the house into a castle full of traps...I have a lot of good ideas.....heee..heee...heee. I pau hana now....must get rest....Have a Great Thanksgiving.

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