.17 Hornady Hornet vs. .17 Ackley Hornet

Unlicensed Dremel · October 15, 2014, 07:35 PM

Since .17 Hornady Hornet will chamber and fire fine in a .17 Ackley Hornet chamber, but .17 Ackley Hornet will NOT chamber and fire in a .17 Hornady Hornet chamber,

If you were buying new, which chambering would you buy and why?

For example, Cooper for many years, and still today, has made the .17 A.H. one of their common chamberings for their model 38 action. But just very recently they added .17 H.H. as well - why? Why would someone want the HH chamber over the AH chamber? You could just use the AH dies once factory HH ammo was fire-formed, if you shot any factory at all, that is.

Seems like the AH is the no-brainer option, but maybe not. It's not like you're going to have two types of fired brass lying around that you could confuse and would have to measure, because ANY and all fired brass would be of the AH variety, regardless of its origin, if that's the chambering you have. And any rifle chambered for the AH (such as a Cooper for example) will have a magazine well long enough for the slightly-longer AH round, so that's not a concern.

So is it just ignorance of the general public that HH can be fired safely in the AH chamber, or some additional reason?

Thanks.

Unlicensed Dremel · October 15, 2014, 07:38 PM

Oh wait, I think I may have found the answer - I found this:

Quote:

I tried a Hornaday 17 Hornet in my 17 Akley Hornets chamber, and it would not go in. The Hornaday round is a bit larger at the shoulder. I am seriously considering re-chambering my rifle to the Hornaday cartridge. I will then have a set of Akley Hornet dies to offer to sakoman.

So perhaps there's less taper, and in a tight chamber, it's NOT true that the HH will chamber and fire... ??

http://www.assra.com/cgi-bin/yabb/Ya...num=1334332277

Oh well, also, obviously the answer might be "because no one chambers them in AH except Cooper, and I don't have $2K for a Cooper" - that'd be a reasonable answer too I suppose:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=446841611

There's one of the few Coopers I'm seeing chambered in the HH instead of the AH.

And can someone answer me this....How is it that Savage has the gall to call it's model 25 the "lightweight varminter" at over 8 lbs for the wood-stocked variety?!? That's not light at all.

Magnum Wheel Man · October 16, 2014, 05:57 AM

my builder buddy was interested in a 17 Hornet Contender barrel back several years ago when he was making Contender barrels... & he chambered in Ackley... I happened to have a vintage factory Contender barrel in K Hornet... they seemed to shoot pretty similarly... then the Hornady Hornet came out... we figured this was great, as we'd have fire form loads ready to shoot, rather than going through all the work of forming brass;...

well... it's great for me, as they go into the K Hornet chamber, but not the Ackley chamber...

if you're looking for easy, just chamber in Hornady Hornet... if you're after something different, & maybe the slightest bit better... chamber in K Hornet...

now that I've made that statement, I'll say hands down my favorite 17 centerfire is the 17 Fireball... a little hotter yet, factory brass when you can find it ( Gun Broker sellers are peddling 223 brass & 221 Fireball formed to 17 Fireball... those are easy to get... I already had quite a bit of R-P 17 Fireball brass, so I personally haven't used either of the formed cases ) easier to reload, cases last longer & are much thicker... yet doesn't have the "over kill", temperament, or barrel burning qualities of the 17 Remington / 17-223

Unlicensed Dremel · October 16, 2014, 11:27 AM

Wow, that's helpful. Thank you. So you think you can get several more reloadings per case from the .17 Rem Fireball, as compared to the .17 Hornady Hornet?

Magnum Wheel Man · October 16, 2014, 02:30 PM

many more...

khornet224 · October 16, 2014, 04:58 PM

Something else to consider is the difference in amount of powder being burned in the 17 Hornet and the 17 Fireball. Less powder being burned will result in shorter or longer pop sounds (gunfire blast) from the cartridges.

The 17 Hornet burns about 12 grains of powder and 17 Fireball about 18 grains. This means that the 17 Hornet when fired goes off with a short pop sound (the powder burn time is short). On the other hand, 17 Fireball has to burn more powder thus causing a longer pop sound. The longer pop sound is going to be heard further away.

This might be important if you a planning to shoot in fields near housing. I like the 17 Hornet (I do not own the 17 Fireball). If the 17 Fireball could be shortened to say 17 TCM (wildcatted of the 22 TCM) then you would have the best of both: longer case life and a quiet rifle.

Unlicensed Dremel · October 16, 2014, 05:16 PM

Thanks - good point about the noise - that's a real consideration.

Also, if buying factory, the .17 hornet is 75.2 cents/round: http://www.henryrifles.com/rifles/mini-bolt-youth/

vs. $1.18/round for .17 Fireball: http://www.midwayusa.com/product/628...ProductFinding

(comparing cheapest to cheapest)

If you shoot 50 rounds, that just cost you an EXTRA $21.39 to shoot the Fireball. I can't see needing that extra velocity and barrel burn for the extra cost, even if brass life is shorter. Not when my purpose is turtles and crows to 200 yards, and range shooting to 100 yards for newbies. I could see wanting the .17 Fireball for yotes & beavers, but that ain't my purpose here.

Well I guess it comes down to, like it often does: If I'm reloading it, the .17 Fireball wins out; if shooting factory, the .17 Hornet wins out.

Also, back to the original question. Perhaps a better question than

"Why NOT get a .17 AH since it's more versatile?"
is
"WHY get a .17 AH? Since you don't need the versatility - since well, no one buys .17 AH cartridges to shoot. They handload them"

So in light of that, .17 Hornet would win out regardless of whether you're mainly handloading or mainly factory ammo shooting. You can handload either just fine. But you'll never find yourself buying factory AH ammo, so that theoretical versatility will just never be needed. I guess the ONLY reason TO get an AH might be if you already have the AH dies and such. Or if you just HAD to have a Cooper, and Cooper didn't chamber the rifles in the HH round - BUT, they DO chamber the HH now, so that's a non-issue now too.

Magnum Wheel Man · October 17, 2014, 08:26 AM

Hornady really shook up the 17's by standardizing the Hornet... & making factory ammo, & IMO, Remington really dropped the ball, by standardizing the 17 Fireball, & then dropping it a year later... "If" Hornady keeps the 17 Hornet as a factory cartridge, it's going to be your most practical...

however, if not enough sales are generated, & they drop it like Remington did the Fireball, ( to my knowledge Remington was the only one to make factory brass for the 17 Fireball, & Hornady is currently the only one to make factory brass for the 17 Hornet )... to get brass for handloading in the future, then the Fireball wins, as it has more common brass that can be used for forming cases... ( have you tried to buy 22 Hornet ammo or brass lately... it's pretty much non existent ) also the Fireball is easier to form, & doesn't require a fire form load ( even though the 1st round forms ever so slightly to your chamber on formed brass ) 17 Hornet, requires you waste a bullet, powder & primer to blow out the shoulder to form the case from a 22 Hornet... I was trying to load ( & gave up for a while ) 17 K Hornet cartridges, back during the last primer shortage... & just couldn't see wasting primers to form cases... so I shelved that project for a while... so imagine how happy I was, when Hornady came out with the 17 Hornet... it's still a fire form load in my chamber, but it's starting out as a 17 Hornet, not some pop gun fire form load, that ends up being 1/2 as accurate, & 1/2 the velocity of the finished K Hornet, & thus just a waste of components to achieve correct brass... the Ackley Hornet would suffer the same issues

BTW... the 17 Fireball is not any louder in my Remington 700, than the 17 K Hornet is out of my 10" Contender... there might be a noticeable difference between the 2 out of similar guns, but I'm sure it's quite marginal... my 2 house dogs are sensitive to gun fire, & my range is 75 - 100 yards from the house... a 223 will send them to the bed in the basement, but the 17 Fireball doesn't bother them & they'll stay sitting on the couch on the main floor...

so the Fireball is little white doggie approved

khornet224 · October 18, 2014, 12:14 AM

It is not true that you can not get accurate fire forming loads that can be used as kill shots on varmints. I was able to accomplish this with the both the 17 Hornady hornet and the 22 k-hornet using Prvi Partizan brass. However, you will get a very small percentage of fire-formed loads that will have case necks that are too thick. These rounds will chamber ok but will usually lead to a thrown shot.

Prvi Partizan brass in 22 Hornet has sporadically been available throughout the latest shortage at Graf and Sons.

The 17 AH is a non-standard cartridge(wildcat); will require fire forming to generate cartridges.
The 17 Hornady Hornet is a standard cartridge; factory brass is available--fire forming is optional
The 17 Fireball is a standard cartridge; factory brass might be available--fire forming may be necessary

Fire forming, annealing, and neck turning brass are all good skills to have.

Unlicensed Dremel · October 21, 2014, 01:55 PM

Thanks you too - good stuff. I think I will likely start an all-encompassing thread on my .17 search in the next couple weeks. Strongest contenders right now are still the CZ 527 in .17 Hornet (Hornady) & the Savage 93 BSEV in .17 Hummer. But I don't want to rule out a .17 Rem Fireball if it's the better choice for my purposes - the brass life is really appealing.

I have also heard elsewhere that fireforming loads (from .17 HH to .17 AH) can be accurate. I think the inaccurate "popgun" loads MWM was referring to (mostly) are reduced charges for sole purpose of fireforming (??).

Magnum Wheel Man · October 21, 2014, 02:11 PM

correct... The K Hornet is the most "stretched" of the improved lil Hornet cases, & I have gotten cracked cases if I try a full load in the formed, but yet un-fire formed cases...

if you look through this link, you'll find 17 Fireball cases new ( they are really hard to get right now, but I refuse to pay a dollar each ) 221 Formed 17's, & cases in any quantity formed from 5.56 Mil cases, ready to load... if I didn't have 700 or so R-P 17 Fireball cases, I'd just buy a 1000 of the formed 5.56 cases

http://www.gunbroker.com/Reloading-S...ds=17+Fireball

... again, I have no issues with the 17 Hornet, so long as Hornady doesn't go the same route as Remington did with the Fireball, & drop it right away... ( IMO, a real concern... if the companies don't get caught up, & the next "national tragedy" puts us back in panic buying mode, the factory 17 Hornet may never fill the shelves??? )

tuck2 · October 26, 2014, 07:46 AM

I m an old timer and over the years people have developed wildcat cartridges from all the standard factory made cases. There are two common conditions to consider , the time it takes to make the wildcat case and the cost to make the wildcat chambered rifle. Most wildcat cartridges have never lasted very long after a similar cartridge have become a commercial round. I can see no reason to making a 17 AH rifle since the 17 HH cartridge have become a standard factory cartridge. With the Hornady 20 grain V max bullet fired from my CZ 527 Varmint 17 Hornet rifle I get 1/2 inch five shot 100 yard groups when shot off a bench rest. But I must thank the people who enjoy developing wildcat rounds , because of them we now have some fine varmint and big cartridges.

October 15, 2014, 07:35 PM	#1
Unlicensed Dremel Junior member Join Date: February 13, 2014 Location: Flathead Valley, MT Posts: 2,187	.17 Hornady Hornet vs. .17 Ackley Hornet Since .17 Hornady Hornet will chamber and fire fine in a .17 Ackley Hornet chamber, but .17 Ackley Hornet will NOT chamber and fire in a .17 Hornady Hornet chamber, If you were buying new, which chambering would you buy and why? For example, Cooper for many years, and still today, has made the .17 A.H. one of their common chamberings for their model 38 action. But just very recently they added .17 H.H. as well - why? Why would someone want the HH chamber over the AH chamber? You could just use the AH dies once factory HH ammo was fire-formed, if you shot any factory at all, that is. Seems like the AH is the no-brainer option, but maybe not. It's not like you're going to have two types of fired brass lying around that you could confuse and would have to measure, because ANY and all fired brass would be of the AH variety, regardless of its origin, if that's the chambering you have. And any rifle chambered for the AH (such as a Cooper for example) will have a magazine well long enough for the slightly-longer AH round, so that's not a concern. So is it just ignorance of the general public that HH can be fired safely in the AH chamber, or some additional reason? Thanks.

October 16, 2014, 05:57 AM	#3
Magnum Wheel Man Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2006 Location: Southern Minnesota Posts: 9,333	my builder buddy was interested in a 17 Hornet Contender barrel back several years ago when he was making Contender barrels... & he chambered in Ackley... I happened to have a vintage factory Contender barrel in K Hornet... they seemed to shoot pretty similarly... then the Hornady Hornet came out... we figured this was great, as we'd have fire form loads ready to shoot, rather than going through all the work of forming brass;... well... it's great for me, as they go into the K Hornet chamber, but not the Ackley chamber... if you're looking for easy, just chamber in Hornady Hornet... if you're after something different, & maybe the slightest bit better... chamber in K Hornet... now that I've made that statement, I'll say hands down my favorite 17 centerfire is the 17 Fireball... a little hotter yet, factory brass when you can find it ( Gun Broker sellers are peddling 223 brass & 221 Fireball formed to 17 Fireball... those are easy to get... I already had quite a bit of R-P 17 Fireball brass, so I personally haven't used either of the formed cases ) easier to reload, cases last longer & are much thicker... yet doesn't have the "over kill", temperament, or barrel burning qualities of the 17 Remington / 17-223 __________________ In life you either make dust or eat dust... Last edited by Magnum Wheel Man; October 16, 2014 at 06:03 AM.

October 16, 2014, 02:30 PM	#5
Magnum Wheel Man Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2006 Location: Southern Minnesota Posts: 9,333	many more... __________________ In life you either make dust or eat dust...

October 16, 2014, 04:58 PM	#6
khornet224 Junior Member Join Date: October 7, 2014 Posts: 8	17 Hornet is quiet Something else to consider is the difference in amount of powder being burned in the 17 Hornet and the 17 Fireball. Less powder being burned will result in shorter or longer pop sounds (gunfire blast) from the cartridges. The 17 Hornet burns about 12 grains of powder and 17 Fireball about 18 grains. This means that the 17 Hornet when fired goes off with a short pop sound (the powder burn time is short). On the other hand, 17 Fireball has to burn more powder thus causing a longer pop sound. The longer pop sound is going to be heard further away. This might be important if you a planning to shoot in fields near housing. I like the 17 Hornet (I do not own the 17 Fireball). If the 17 Fireball could be shortened to say 17 TCM (wildcatted of the 22 TCM) then you would have the best of both: longer case life and a quiet rifle.

October 17, 2014, 08:26 AM	#8
Magnum Wheel Man Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2006 Location: Southern Minnesota Posts: 9,333	Hornady really shook up the 17's by standardizing the Hornet... & making factory ammo, & IMO, Remington really dropped the ball, by standardizing the 17 Fireball, & then dropping it a year later... "If" Hornady keeps the 17 Hornet as a factory cartridge, it's going to be your most practical... however, if not enough sales are generated, & they drop it like Remington did the Fireball, ( to my knowledge Remington was the only one to make factory brass for the 17 Fireball, & Hornady is currently the only one to make factory brass for the 17 Hornet )... to get brass for handloading in the future, then the Fireball wins, as it has more common brass that can be used for forming cases... ( have you tried to buy 22 Hornet ammo or brass lately... it's pretty much non existent ) also the Fireball is easier to form, & doesn't require a fire form load ( even though the 1st round forms ever so slightly to your chamber on formed brass ) 17 Hornet, requires you waste a bullet, powder & primer to blow out the shoulder to form the case from a 22 Hornet... I was trying to load ( & gave up for a while ) 17 K Hornet cartridges, back during the last primer shortage... & just couldn't see wasting primers to form cases... so I shelved that project for a while... so imagine how happy I was, when Hornady came out with the 17 Hornet... it's still a fire form load in my chamber, but it's starting out as a 17 Hornet, not some pop gun fire form load, that ends up being 1/2 as accurate, & 1/2 the velocity of the finished K Hornet, & thus just a waste of components to achieve correct brass... the Ackley Hornet would suffer the same issues BTW... the 17 Fireball is not any louder in my Remington 700, than the 17 K Hornet is out of my 10" Contender... there might be a noticeable difference between the 2 out of similar guns, but I'm sure it's quite marginal... my 2 house dogs are sensitive to gun fire, & my range is 75 - 100 yards from the house... a 223 will send them to the bed in the basement, but the 17 Fireball doesn't bother them & they'll stay sitting on the couch on the main floor... so the Fireball is little white doggie approved __________________ In life you either make dust or eat dust... Last edited by Magnum Wheel Man; October 17, 2014 at 08:35 AM.

October 16, 2014, 11:27 AM	#4
Unlicensed Dremel Junior member Join Date: February 13, 2014 Location: Flathead Valley, MT Posts: 2,187	Wow, that's helpful. Thank you. So you think you can get several more reloadings per case from the .17 Rem Fireball, as compared to the .17 Hornady Hornet?

October 16, 2014, 05:16 PM	#7
Unlicensed Dremel Junior member Join Date: February 13, 2014 Location: Flathead Valley, MT Posts: 2,187	Thanks - good point about the noise - that's a real consideration. Also, if buying factory, the .17 hornet is 75.2 cents/round: http://www.henryrifles.com/rifles/mini-bolt-youth/ vs. $1.18/round for .17 Fireball: http://www.midwayusa.com/product/628...ProductFinding (comparing cheapest to cheapest) If you shoot 50 rounds, that just cost you an EXTRA $21.39 to shoot the Fireball. I can't see needing that extra velocity and barrel burn for the extra cost, even if brass life is shorter. Not when my purpose is turtles and crows to 200 yards, and range shooting to 100 yards for newbies. I could see wanting the .17 Fireball for yotes & beavers, but that ain't my purpose here. Well I guess it comes down to, like it often does: If I'm reloading it, the .17 Fireball wins out; if shooting factory, the .17 Hornet wins out. Also, back to the original question. Perhaps a better question than "Why NOT get a .17 AH since it's more versatile?" is "WHY get a .17 AH? Since you don't need the versatility - since well, no one buys .17 AH cartridges to shoot. They handload them" So in light of that, .17 Hornet would win out regardless of whether you're mainly handloading or mainly factory ammo shooting. You can handload either just fine. But you'll never find yourself buying factory AH ammo, so that theoretical versatility will just never be needed. I guess the ONLY reason TO get an AH might be if you already have the AH dies and such. Or if you just HAD to have a Cooper, and Cooper didn't chamber the rifles in the HH round - BUT, they DO chamber the HH now, so that's a non-issue now too.

October 18, 2014, 12:14 AM	#9
khornet224 Junior Member Join Date: October 7, 2014 Posts: 8	17 AH is a wildcat (17 Hornady Hornet is a standard cartridge) It is not true that you can not get accurate fire forming loads that can be used as kill shots on varmints. I was able to accomplish this with the both the 17 Hornady hornet and the 22 k-hornet using Prvi Partizan brass. However, you will get a very small percentage of fire-formed loads that will have case necks that are too thick. These rounds will chamber ok but will usually lead to a thrown shot. Prvi Partizan brass in 22 Hornet has sporadically been available throughout the latest shortage at Graf and Sons. The 17 AH is a non-standard cartridge(wildcat); will require fire forming to generate cartridges. The 17 Hornady Hornet is a standard cartridge; factory brass is available--fire forming is optional The 17 Fireball is a standard cartridge; factory brass might be available--fire forming may be necessary Fire forming, annealing, and neck turning brass are all good skills to have.

October 21, 2014, 01:55 PM	#10
Unlicensed Dremel Junior member Join Date: February 13, 2014 Location: Flathead Valley, MT Posts: 2,187	Thanks you too - good stuff. I think I will likely start an all-encompassing thread on my .17 search in the next couple weeks. Strongest contenders right now are still the CZ 527 in .17 Hornet (Hornady) & the Savage 93 BSEV in .17 Hummer. But I don't want to rule out a .17 Rem Fireball if it's the better choice for my purposes - the brass life is really appealing. I have also heard elsewhere that fireforming loads (from .17 HH to .17 AH) can be accurate. I think the inaccurate "popgun" loads MWM was referring to (mostly) are reduced charges for sole purpose of fireforming (??).

October 21, 2014, 02:11 PM	#11
Magnum Wheel Man Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2006 Location: Southern Minnesota Posts: 9,333	correct... The K Hornet is the most "stretched" of the improved lil Hornet cases, & I have gotten cracked cases if I try a full load in the formed, but yet un-fire formed cases... if you look through this link, you'll find 17 Fireball cases new ( they are really hard to get right now, but I refuse to pay a dollar each ) 221 Formed 17's, & cases in any quantity formed from 5.56 Mil cases, ready to load... if I didn't have 700 or so R-P 17 Fireball cases, I'd just buy a 1000 of the formed 5.56 cases http://www.gunbroker.com/Reloading-S...ds=17+Fireball ... again, I have no issues with the 17 Hornet, so long as Hornady doesn't go the same route as Remington did with the Fireball, & drop it right away... ( IMO, a real concern... if the companies don't get caught up, & the next "national tragedy" puts us back in panic buying mode, the factory 17 Hornet may never fill the shelves??? ) __________________ In life you either make dust or eat dust...

October 26, 2014, 07:46 AM	#12
tuck2 Senior Member Join Date: April 25, 2007 Posts: 208	I m an old timer and over the years people have developed wildcat cartridges from all the standard factory made cases. There are two common conditions to consider , the time it takes to make the wildcat case and the cost to make the wildcat chambered rifle. Most wildcat cartridges have never lasted very long after a similar cartridge have become a commercial round. I can see no reason to making a 17 AH rifle since the 17 HH cartridge have become a standard factory cartridge. With the Hornady 20 grain V max bullet fired from my CZ 527 Varmint 17 Hornet rifle I get 1/2 inch five shot 100 yard groups when shot off a bench rest. But I must thank the people who enjoy developing wildcat rounds , because of them we now have some fine varmint and big cartridges.