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Old July 4, 2013, 03:12 PM   #26
KyJim
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Quick question. How many of you folks posting (besides Tom Servo) watched the videos? He's talking about those posting here.
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Old July 4, 2013, 03:24 PM   #27
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I watched them both....I laughed....and I can't wait until he gets around to the Magnum calibers....
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Old July 4, 2013, 03:28 PM   #28
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Very funny videos! Thanks for posting.
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Old July 4, 2013, 08:59 PM   #29
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WRONG!....

Oh, another "errornet" post or how crazy rumors get started.
The USMC do not carry the M9. They got a new pistol contract for the Beretta M9a1 model. It has the 1913 tactical rail & new improved magazines.
FWIW, there was a push in the late 2000s for the US Marine Corps to set up their own separate armed service dept but it went nowhere due to budget cuts & lack of support from the US Congress.
R Lee Emery, the well known actor & star of a few Glock ads, testified before Congress about the issue. Emery was also a USMC veteran; www.imdb.com .

I agree with a few TFLers that the 1911 sidearm use in the 2000s has been vastly over-rated. The model has been in use since 1907 or so, there are many, many users & supporters.
In fact, I saw a 5" barrel 1911a1 .45acp in a Blackhawk SERPA on the hip of a police detective in the small suburb near my city. This was on the TV news 2 days ago.
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Old July 4, 2013, 09:06 PM   #30
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How many of you folks posting (besides Tom Servo) watched the videos?
I really don't think any of them did. And they're arguing nonetheless. It's truly surreal.

Just to muddy the waters a bit, what of the .40 S&W?
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Old July 4, 2013, 09:20 PM   #31
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I have a nice group of 45s, mostly Colt and a AMT, and I like them. I know if I did my part, they would do their part. However, do I prefer a 9mm in that grave situation, and do I trust my life to a 9mm? Yes I do.

Part of this argument stems from ball vs ball, in the various wars and conflicts, where a 45 there has a big advantage. With modern ammo, say 9mm+P HP, like a hydra-shok, the 45 loses some of its "big" advantage. Of course, you could always carry hydra-shoks in a 45, but then you have greater recoil, a bigger gun to carry, less rounds, slower follow up shot, etc. Remember the FBI statistic that only 33% of shots in a gunfight are on target. Part of the 45 "advantage" is the major assumption that you won't miss. I of course have a more practical opinion which is, I accept that I may miss, so I have a lower recoil gun, with more rounds. Then again, if you have a plain 1911, with 7+1, and you shoot all 8 rounds, and you need more, its time to run. Sometimes I think the capacity advantage of a 9mm is over stated, but its real and tangible, ready and willing, if it would be needed.

Aside from all of that, my opinion has always been that it takes a brain bigger than a 45 to understand why the 9mm is a better choice in many ways. Its kind of like elementary math vs trig, of course everyone understands 2+2, but trig takes a lot more to grasp. The whole bigger is better thing can be traced all the way back to guns such as the Colt Walker, and even prior guns, where the bullet technology was in its infancy, and so you either made the bullet bigger, which made it heavier, or you attempted to make the velocity faster. There was no other way. Fast forward 170+ years, and we are not faced with the exact same situation. And ya, I know I know, the Marines went back to 45, and many PDs have 45s again, but there are MANY factors which go into such choices, not just "hey look, its like a bus vs a small pickup."
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Old July 4, 2013, 11:21 PM   #32
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Is that why I carry a 9mm? I'm glad someone told me. I thought it was because I like and could afford the P95 which happens to be a 9mm.

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Old July 5, 2013, 09:48 AM   #33
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I can't get to the videos from here, but I've watched a number of Mr. Noir's videos, including those on 9mm and 45 acp carriers. Both are very entertaining.
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Old July 5, 2013, 09:59 AM   #34
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Quote:
ust to muddy the waters a bit, what of the .40 S&W?
LOL! That resolves the debate.
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Old July 5, 2013, 10:49 AM   #35
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Quote:
to muddy the waters a bit, what of the .40 S&W?
Quote:
LOL! That resolves the debate.
Does it? what about the .357sig? Which is basically a necked down .40 to 9mm. It seems to develop slightly more energy than the .40 and has a higher max case pressure.
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Old July 5, 2013, 05:54 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KyJim
LOL! That resolves the debate.
Nah......just carry a .44Magnum.....it'll blow a man's head clean off....

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Old July 5, 2013, 06:25 PM   #37
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I didn't watch the videos.

So that qualifies me to enter the discussion.

OM flipping G! You want to get ego on caliber, find the .50 AE guys. >

*ducks and runs for cover*
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Old July 5, 2013, 07:03 PM   #38
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Does it? what about the .357sig?
Just folks with .357 magnum envy.
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Old July 5, 2013, 07:36 PM   #39
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Do you really think with modern defensive ammo there is a dimes difference between .45, .40 or 9mm as long as shot placement is good.
Yes, definitely a difference! Being an emergency room physician for several years I can attest. Patients presenting with .22, .380, 9mm GSW's (even with vital shot placement) have a much higher survival rate than those with the larger calibers.
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Old July 5, 2013, 07:45 PM   #40
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Quote:
Quote:
How many of you folks posting (besides Tom Servo) watched the videos?
I really don't think any of them did. And they're arguing nonetheless. It's truly surreal.
Right on both counts - I hadn't watched them, and they're a hoot! Much more entertaining, and somewhat more enlightening, than the discussion thread

: ) =
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Old July 5, 2013, 07:55 PM   #41
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Mitranoc,

The only way your emergency room experience would be valid would be if they were all modern hollow points, and to only compare those survival results. And to only compare 9mm to .45 acp, which is the topic here.
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Old July 5, 2013, 08:04 PM   #42
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Regardless of whether people want to argue about it or not, hole size matters. People bleed out. Larger holes hit more blood vessels, have a higher chance of hitting vitals, increase temporary wound cavity size by transferring energy to the wound.

There is another parallel. This is velocity. Velocity causes expansion reliability, increases temporary wound cavity size and causes the non-expanding part of the bullet to penetrate.

The thing that ties these together is bullet design. Bullet design cannot add to diameter and velocity, but it can use them to give you maximum wound creation in a specific target.

So, while a 9mm is fine, a 1200+ fps load with a good bullet will help it get you what you need. Also, it will cause less damage and miss more blood vessels, so aim and shoot again.

A 45 is great too, but don't count on diameter to make misses into hits. Also, it would be wise to limit yourself to loads over 900fps. 800 fps hardball is not better than 9mm hp's. last, don't be afraid to shoot twice. No CCW handgun is powerful enough not to shoot twice.

40 is in between and it is a fine round. It takes the 9mm's length, velocity and pressure and combines it with a little old fashioned diameter. It is probably the best of both worlds for most people.
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Old July 5, 2013, 08:09 PM   #43
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Larger holes hit more blood vessels, have a higher chance of hitting vitals, increase temporary wound cavity size by transferring energy to the wound.
You realize we're talking about hundredths of an inch right?
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Old July 5, 2013, 08:52 PM   #44
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You realize we're talking about hundredths of an inch right?
When talking about wound cavity, and hydrostatic shock, those hundredths turn into quarter and half inches. Look at the difference in cavity between a .308 and a .223, much more than 8/100 of an inch difference.
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Old July 5, 2013, 09:07 PM   #45
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Actually, the difference is fairly substantial. A 9mm is only about 61 percent of the frontal area of a .45 acp.
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Old July 5, 2013, 09:32 PM   #46
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Nope, I'm no doing it. I'm not getting in a caliber war over a parody video that makes fun of people that get into caliber wars! The heat may be getting to me but I'm not that crazy. Peace
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Old July 5, 2013, 09:44 PM   #47
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XTP is said to expand ~150%.

.45 = 0.69"
40 = 0.60"
9mm = 0.53"

No matter how you slice it, that is a BIG difference.
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Old July 5, 2013, 09:53 PM   #48
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XTP is said to expand ~150%.

.45 = 0.69"
40 = 0.60"
9mm = 0.53"

No matter how you slice it, that is a BIG difference.
Those are low expansion numbers for all calibers.

http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Sel...icturerev3.jpg

If you want to carry a 45 do it. If you want to carry a 40 do it. If you want to carry a 25 do it.
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Old July 6, 2013, 01:51 AM   #49
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This is why I hand load my own ammo.

Get a big enough case, and you can put both 9mm and .45 auto into it; duck tape and super glue, who knew!

Problem solved.

And about the .40 S&W... all that I can say is 10mm auto.

(In just four sentences, I managed to solve the dilemma and rabbit trail the thread just using bait left by another poster.)
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Old July 6, 2013, 02:06 AM   #50
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I hear that the AF2011 (the double barrel 1911) will be released with one side chambered in 45 ACP and one in 9mm next year, in an effort to end the which is better debate. I have heard a third barrel is being considered also, in an effort to please fans of 40 S&W. The carry model will be compact 4 inches tall 3 inches long and 8 inches wide.
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